[IH8Rice]

another failed attempt

What plug-in car will cost more than a Nissan Leaf or a Chevrolet Volt but is virtually unknown to the American public? The Coda EV Sedan, that's what. Coda Automotive has announced that the price for its all-electric vehicle will be $44,900 – or, $37,400 after the feds chip in $7,500 as a tax credit. To compare, the Leaf costs $25,280 after incentives and the Volt can be had for $33,500 with federal help. So, your options will be to either buy a Volt and get an electric vehicle with a range extender or spend $4,000 more to go gas-free and have a longer EV-only range. Or, spend a lot less on the Leaf ($12,120) and go almost as far on battery power. The Leaf is expected to get around 100 miles to the charge, while Coda is saying that its 33.8 kWh lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery system with active thermal management will provide "a dependable all-weather range of up to 120 miles and at least 30 percent more usable energy than our leading competitor." Here's some of the not-as-good fine print

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/21/2011-coda-electric-sedan-priced-at-44-900/

 

[DaveW]

Leaf is gonna murder the Volt I'm thinking looking at those stats.

 

[IH8Rice]

Leaf is gonna murder the Volt I'm thinking looking at those stats.

it better. its a better overall car, from a better company

 

[Toshi]

Leaf is gonna murder the Volt I'm thinking looking at those stats.

it better. its a better overall car, from a better company

Conversely, the Coda is going to flop. Chinese car from a no-name firm priced $13k above the Leaf? No thanks

 

[jimmydean]

Nice ride Toshi! I hope to get a leg over the Empulse soon, the fly by video is sweet. Every time I ride the Triumph, I can't help but wounder just how odd it is to have nothing for the left side to do other than hold on and steer.

I got 48mpg last tank on the Triumph. Not bad considering it's 955cc and about 130bhp.

 

[Toshi]

Keep this up, Brammo, and you might double your sales

 

[Toshi]

This Portland guy is totally obsessed with cargo bikes. Er, "cargobikes"?

http://bikenounverb.blogspot.com/

He makes me seem completely sane in comparison.

 

[jimmydean]

Keep this up, Brammo, and you might double your sales

I got an 8x10 of that when I was there.

 

[amishmatt]

it better. its a better overall car, from a better company

Why do you hate America?

 

[IH8Rice]

Why do you hate America?

just in relation to the topic about the Leaf being a better car than the Volt...except in looks

 

[CBJ]

Why do you hate America?

I just think he hates Detroit - would you want move to Detroit

 

[IH8Rice]

I just think he hates Detroit - would you want move to Detroit

i buy american whenever i can. 6 of my 7 cars ive had have been american.

 

[IH8Rice]

Sources (i.e., email tips and a Tweet from Ward's Auto) are telling us that General Motors Vice Chairman Tom Stephens told attendees at the Directions in Engine-Efficiency and Emissions Research (DEER) conference in Detroit today that a diesel-engined passenger car is coming to the U.S. sometime in the future. Nothing has been officially decided, but Stephens indicated that GM has a portfolio of diesels to draw from, noting that it's up to the marketing department to define what engine and platform might be used, let alone what brand it would be marketed under. What might we see? Maybe something along the line of a GM Jetta?

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/09/27/report-gm-will-sell-a-diesel-car-in-the-u-s/

 

[Toshi]

I know I posted about the original, 125 cc gasoline BMW C1 very early in this thread, but did I ever post about the electric (concept only :facepalm: ) reincarnation?

BMW C1-E concept. http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-c1-e/

I love it. Dual discs. Powertrain from the now-defunct Vectrix corp. Li-ion battery pack. I would totally rock it, as I have no shame. The only thing it's missing is a wiper to clear that big windscreen of rain.

 

[woodsguy]

Electric scooter for $2k

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.667537/n.2/it.A/id.5721/.f?sc=35&category=1376

 

[Toshi]

Remember that big Argonne well-to-wheels energy analysis thing I wrote about a month or two back? No? Well, anyway, one of its points was that series PHEV-40s such as the Chevy Volt would be expected to have lower charge-sustaining efficiency than well-designed non-plugin HEVs (PHEV-0s, if you will) such as the Prius.

Wait, huh?

In other words, my reading of the Argonne paper was that the Volt's fuel economy past its 40 mile battery-only range would be worse than that of the Prius. Guess what? It's true:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/30/report-volts-gas-tank-is-9-3-gallons-lengthy-journeys-return/

32 MPG.

:facepalm:

 

[Toshi]

It's made an appearance in this thread earlier in prototype form as tested by some NY Scooter Club types, but things seem to be firming up a little bit for the 4-wheel Quadro 4D:

http://www.quadro4motion.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=62&lang=en

No specs yet, but here's a nice photo and a video showing how it works. I'm unclear on whether it'll fall over at a stop like an MP3 and how it knows how much to lean, assuming that's not left up to gravity as on a conventional inline two-wheeler.

They also have a 3-wheeled one that looks for all the world like a wide track Piaggio MP3:

 

[Toshi]

Why do EV concepts all have to have weird-ass wheels? Skoda's EV, Volvo's C30 EV, and the Toyota iQ EV all have this "look at me, I'm from the uglified future" thing going on in the wheelwells...

In any case, Volvo claims that they'll have at least a token number of C30 EVs on the road in 2011, and a PHEV diesel (!) in 2012. I'll believe it only when I see examples in the flesh at dealerships.

The C30 DRIVe Electric will go into production in early 2011 and run in test fleets in Europe, China and the US.

Stefan Jacoby also stated that Volvo Cars will have a plug-in hybrid on offer in 2012, combining an electric power with a diesel hybrid power train. The Volvo plug-in hybrid will have ultra low CO2 emissions, below 50 grams CO2/km.

"We move into the future with the aspiration to design vehicles with minimised environmental impact, as well as the ambition to produce the world's safest cars," Stefan Jacoby said.

 

[stevew]

Why do EV concepts all have to have weird-ass wheels?

or in jaguar's case...wheels that look like they belong in the 90's.....

batteries....electric motors at each wheel.....twin micro turbines....200 mph + top speed...

 

[CBJ]

Why do EV concepts all have to have weird-ass wheels? Skoda's EV, Volvo's C30 EV, and the Toyota iQ EV all have this "look at me, I'm from the uglified future" thing going on in the wheelwells...

In any case, Volvo claims that they'll have at least a token number of C30 EVs on the road in 2011, and a PHEV diesel (!) in 2012. I'll believe it only when I see examples in the flesh at dealerships.

Well they better do something this previous forward thinking previous Swedish company has under Ford put out cars with worse MPG than their predecessors.

Toshi how is the Prius working out?

 

[Toshi]

Prius is working out peachy keen. Combined mpg on the cheapest unleaded gas we could find with my wife driving most of the time is 44, mostly city driving.

 

[Toshi]

1) Fully Charged's Robert Llewellyn logged 87 Imperial mpg in a PHEV Toyota Prius. That's 72 US mpg, logged over 300 miles of driving. Not bad. Out of focus video at link:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/04/video-fully-charged-drives-the-plug-in-prius-averages-87-mpg/

2) The Peraves E-Tracer, winner of the alternative tandem seating class of the Progressive Automotive X Prize, may come to market: AC Propulsion and Peraves (formerly X-Tracer) have signed a letter of intent to bring the vehicle to market. It'll still be ungodly expensive, I'm sure.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/04/peraves-and-ac-propulsion-plan-to-bring-e-tracer-to-american-mar/

3) Some journalist drove 45 mph for 3 days on French motorways in a 1.6L TDI Passat BlueMotion (taller gearing, better aero, stop-start) and logged 75 US mpg. What's more, the tank capacity let him travel 1527 miles on a single fill-up! That's kind of cool, I admit.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/04/passat-bluemotion-enters-record-books-running-1-527-miles-withou/

 

[C.P.]

Jay Leno on EVs...

 

[IH8Rice]

hybrids are teh suck.
i still say diesels are where its at:

Averaging just over 45 miles per hour, the team watched as 1,527 miles came and went. The 1.6-liter TDI-equipped VW Passat BlueMotion used was a standard production model which features a lower standard ride height, Stop/Start tech, longer gearing and low rolling resistance tires. As two witnesses drove behind them to verify the attempt for the Guinness Book of World Records, the Passat rolled along to the tune of nearly 90 miles per gallon – much higher than the 64.2 mpg rating the vehicle carries.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/vw-sets-single-tank-distance-record-with-1-527-mile-passat-bluem/

 

[stevew]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/vw-sets-single-tank-distance-record-with-1-527-mile-passat-bluem/

that's nice but i'd rather drive 65 and get 60+mpg.

 

[IH8Rice]

that's nice but i'd rather drive 65 and get 60+mpg.

its still rated at 64mpg @ probably 55mph.

 

[CBJ]

hybrids are teh suck.
i still say diesels are where its at:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/vw-sets-single-tank-distance-record-with-1-527-mile-passat-bluem/

How about diesel hybrids then?

 

[IH8Rice]

How about diesel hybrids then?

thatd make too much sense!

i honestly would consider one of those if it didnt come packaged in something hideous like the current crop of hybrids

 

[syadasti]

i honestly would consider one of those if it didnt come packaged in something hideous like the current crop of hybrids

The Camry hybrid looks like a normal Camry. Same thing with the Highlander and Harrier/Lexus hybrid SUV.

The Sonata not quite the same but nearly. Maybe the new Kia optima hybrid will be the same decent looking mid sized the regular model is.

 

[IH8Rice]

The Camry hybrid looks like a normal Camry. Same thing with the Highlander and Harrier/Lexus hybrid SUV.

The Sonata not quite the same but nearly. Maybe the new Kia optima hybrid will be the same decent looking mid sized the regular model is.

yeah, more and more cars are starting to finally take the body or similar body to current models in their lineup, but the two hybrids that are getting anywhere near what that VW Passat diesel is getting, are hideous looking..(mainly talking about the Prius and Insight.) i know their designs are based around wind tunnel testing and their shape is optimized for fuel efficiency, but not only is the Passat much larger then the Prius/Insight, it is also better looking.

 

[syadasti]

Has to be apples to apples. One of the pairs of journalist in the group that first tested the regular 2011 Hyundai Sonata on normal roads with legal hypermilling techniques (52 mph on the highway and no support vehicle BTW) got 46.1 mpg overall which is way higher than the EPA's 26 mpg combined or even the highway rating of 35 mpg. The EPA numbers for that Passat won't be nearly as good as this result (you reposted it BTW, Toshi posted it yesterday evening in this thread).

Also drivers waste the most gas/emit the most pollution in city driving and stop and go traffic and diesels aren't going to help out there.

 

[jimmydean]

yeah, more and more cars are starting to finally take the body or similar body to current models in their lineup, but the two hybrids that are getting anywhere near what that VW Passat diesel is getting, are hideous looking..(mainly talking about the Prius and Insight.) i know their designs are based around wind tunnel testing and their shape is optimized for fuel efficiency, but not only is the Passat much larger then the Prius/Insight, it is also better looking.

And makes a sound when it goes.

 

[CBJ]

thatd make too much sense!

i honestly would consider one of those if it didnt come packaged in something hideous like the current crop of hybrids

Go back to post 1742

 

[IH8Rice]

Go back to post 1742

i know they are available and more are coming out....but just like that Passat, its not coming to the U.S. nor probably would it

 

[CBJ]

Too advanced for the US

 

[Toshi]

Too advanced for the US

We don't have the incentive structure to make such vehicles worthwhile for the average Joe, for better or worse: we lack the registration fees tiered sharply progressively by CO2 emission/distance, we lack the high fuel taxes, and we lack congestion charges in big cities again tiered by CO2 with exemptions for low/no CO2 vehicles.

 

[CBJ]

I know what you are saying and I agree the cost structure of driving should encourage driving fuel efficient car but I don't think the Peugeot will be more expensive than the Prius. The Prius is 79.000 USD in Denmark and I really doubt the Peugot will cost more than that. It looks like its based on the new 308 model where they sell the top of the line for 60780 USD (Remember cars a tax really high in Denmark so a you know with the Prius they sell much cheaper in the US). Also sad that a nice car like the 308 diesel would sell for much less than a Prius and get really good mileage as Peugot sells for much less than WV and less than Toyota.

 

[DaveW]

Cycle powered monorail..... Is this alternative enough for ya Toshi?
Google invests in Shweeb

Nah not really a serious transport option, I can't see it ever being more than a resort town tourist attraction. But fun looking never the less.


*edit* lol looking at the riding position I guess the ladies might wish to avoid miniskirts!

 

[IH8Rice]

Has to be apples to apples. One of the pairs of journalist in the group that first tested the regular 2011 Hyundai Sonata on normal roads with legal hypermilling techniques (52 mph on the highway and no support vehicle BTW) got 46.1 mpg overall which is way higher than the EPA's 26 mpg combined or even the highway rating of 35 mpg. The EPA numbers for that Passat won't be nearly as good as this result (you reposted it BTW, Toshi posted it yesterday evening in this thread).

Also drivers waste the most gas/emit the most pollution in city driving and stop and go traffic and diesels aren't going to help out there.

how isnt it a "apples to apples" comparison? two high mileage vehicles being compared to each other. that sounds like mcinstosh and golden delicious to me.
the Passat didnt have a "support" vehicle. they had two witnesses traveling behind them to verify the record. if those giant vans drove in front of the Passat, i could see mileage increasing some more, but nullifying the Guiness record. even with the Sonata at 46mpg "hypermiling," it still mulls in comparison to the 64.2 official combined mpg from not hypermiling in the euro Passat.

and yes, diesels will still obviously pollute more in the city even with start/stop features compared to a gas/electric hybrid. but the diesels are still polluting exponentially less than a gas vehicle(that gets less mpg's) and if paired with a hybrid system, the gas/hybrids wont even hold a candle to the numbers they could generate.

 

[syadasti]

how isnt it a "apples to apples" comparison? two high mileage vehicles being compared to each other. that sounds like mcinstosh and golden delicious to me.
the Passat didnt have a "support" vehicle. they had two witnesses traveling behind them to verify the record. if those giant vans drove in front of the Passat, i could see mileage increasing some more, but nullifying the Guiness record. even with the Sonata at 46mpg "hypermiling," it still mulls in comparison to the 64.2 official combined mpg from not hypermiling in the euro Passat.

and yes, diesels will still obviously pollute more in the city even with start/stop features compared to a gas/electric hybrid. but the diesels are still polluting exponentially less than a gas vehicle(that gets less mpg's) and if paired with a hybrid system, the gas/hybrids wont even hold a candle to the numbers they could generate.

Hypermiling is pointless because the average driver does not drive that way (and its a safety hazard/borders on illegal). Real world mileage or even the EPA or European testing cycle numbers are what matters in the real world.

Gasoline engine cars put out less of the nasty NOx (linked to smog and acid rain - both significant problems around most US urban areas) and particulates (linked to significant human health problems like lung cancer, heart problems, asthma, and death-tens of thousands in the US and hundreds of thousands in Europe. There is still a slight smell too) with similar cost emission control systems. The reason for lack of diesel vehicles is the US is our requirement for lower NOx (beats the Euro 6 - they don't actually "know/do better") - this fact hasn't changed and yet you keep forgetting it.

Most of these new diesel drivetrains also can't tolerate more than B5 diesel and you'd probably need at least B20 before you'd come out ahead of gasoline (at a higher emission system) not to mention biodiesel is not feasible on a large scale, gasoline is. Until then you might as well be talking about how great a hydrogen economy would be too...

Map from June 2010 regarding particulates: