[IH8Rice]

Hypermiling is pointless because the average driver does not drive that way (and its a safety hazard/borders on illegal). Real world mileage or even the EPA or European testing cycle numbers are what matters in the real world.

Gasoline engine cars put out less of the nasty NOx (smog and acid rain - both significant problems around most US urban areas) and particulates (directly linked to significant human health problems like lung cancer, heart problems, asthma, and death-tens of thousands in the US and hundreds of thousands in Europe. There is still a slight smell too) with similar cost emission control systems. The reason for lack of diesel vehicles is the US is our requirement for lower NOx (beats the Euro 6 - they don't actually "know/do better") - this fact hasn't changed and yet you keep forgetting it.

YOU brought the hypermiling up talking about the Sonata @46mpg and i noted the euro Passat is getting 64mpg combined based on NOT hypermiling.

you seem to keep forgetting that current crop of higher-end diesels exceed current US EPA standards and obviously exceed Eu6 standards.

 

[syadasti]

YOU brought the hypermiling up talking about the Sonata @46mpg and i noted the euro Passat is getting 64mpg combined based on NOT hypermiling.

The psuedo-hypermiled journalist sonata was driven at 52 mph average and the passat at 45 mph. The sonata would have done better at 45 mph but that's not legal on the highway where its 70 mph speed limit.

you seem to keep forgetting that current crop of higher-end diesels exceed current US EPA standards and obviously exceed Eu6 standards.

I'm not forgetting anything. Clean diesel still put out more NOx and PM than modern gasoline drivetrains especially if you are comparing at the same cost. If they fail to exceed the minimum the standards gasoline or diesel they can't be sold

 

[IH8Rice]

 

[Toshi]

Some highlights from the AltCar show in Santa Monica:

Peraves E-Tracer. Electric drivetrain by AC Propulsion. Winner of the tandem alternative category at the recent Progressive Automotive X Prize contest.

A Brammo Enertia displaying its undergarments.

Chevy Volt center console layout.

AC Propulsion eBox. Tom Hanks has one iirc.

 

[Toshi]

The psuedo-hypermiled journalist sonata was driven at 52 mph average and the passat at 45 mph. The sonata would have done better at 45 mph but that's not legal on the highway where its 70 mph speed limit.

Speaking of the Sonata, CR just rehashed existing info already out there on the upcoming hybrid variant (link: http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/10/2011-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-details-revealed-on-the-upcoming-blue-drive-sedan-35-mpg.html):

- Li-ion batteries with manganese spinel electrodes, whatever that actually means
- Not a CVT! 6-speed auto with an electronic clutch to disconnect the gas engine
- Capable of 100 km/h (62 mph) on electric power alone
- Aiming for a 40 mpg hwy rating

 

[Toshi]

Sad, especially since the Prius is by far and away the most popular. From last month (link: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/07/honda-civic-hybrid-sales-soar-up-338-over-last-september/ ):

Prius: 11394 sold
Non-Prius Toyota/Lexus hybrids (Camry Hybrid, GS450h, RX400h, LS600h): 3477
Insight: 1679
CR-Z: 1236 <-- yep, a flop already!
Civic Hybrid: 667

 

[Toshi]

I'm proud--smug alert! --of the mileage I logged returning from Newport to Plainview, NY via the Throgs Neck Bridge:

That was all at 0-10 mph over, mostly cruise control, a little coasting on the medium hills on the 25-45 mph limit roads. Not bad for a car rated by the EPA as 45 mpg highway!

 

[Toshi]

Mythbusters buys a Freightliner delivery truck with an Eaton parallel-hybrid system. 25-40% better fuel economy, lower emissions, and a 5 kW aux power unit so it doesn't have to idle to run the A/C when stopped.

The Volt's gas engine can and does drive the wheels directly via a planetary gear setup at speeds > 70 mph. For those not down with the lingo, this means it basically acts just like a Prius… only with a much larger battery pack. This is actually probably a good thing in that it'll increase efficiency but puts the lie to GM's tagline of the Volt as a purely electric car with a range extender.

Following up on my post a few days back in this thread claiming that the Volt would get 33 mpg in charge-sustaining mode (ie, after the first N miles on battery power): N ~= 35 miles and the charge-sustaining mpg ~= 32-36 mpg. That's not that great, no siree.

Source: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric/chevy-volt-range-tests.

Fuel Economy

In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway.

 

[woodsguy]

GM lied. Volt not a true EV.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/gm-lied-chevy-volt-is-not-a-true-ev.html

 

[DaveW]

I'd rather have one of these IMiev's
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/29/2010-mitsubishi-i-miev-review-road-test/
Far better suited to the town I live in (most things close by, narrow roads and bugger all parking).

 

[jimmydean]

38mpg on a Volt.

 

[IH8Rice]

GM lied. Volt not a true EV.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/gm-lied-chevy-volt-is-not-a-true-ev.html

but they said it was!
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/30/repeat-after-us-the-chevrolet-volts-gas-engine-does-not-drive/

 

[Toshi]

 

[CBJ]

Prius MPV - would be perfect for what I need but no budget for a new car.

 

[TheMontashu]

A buddy of mine just started a 2 wheel drive 24 valve build, set up for fuel economy. I'm ganna take some pictures when he starts on it next week, he's doing an over drive, really tall tires, and some other things. The goal is 35MPG highway in a 3/4 ton short bed extended cab

 

[Toshi]

Consumer Reports reports their real-world mpg in an official PHEV Prius:

- 14-17 miles on all electric power, eaten up at just over 300 Wh/mile
- 20-30 mile commuters seeing 81-86 mpg
- 78 mile commuter seeing 63.5 mpg
- Regular Prius for comparison logs 48 mpg in their hands

They do the math with expensive 19 cent/kWh electricity in Connecticut and find that the regular Prius is almost as cheap to run and doesn't have the up-front cost. However, they also note that using less gasoline is a selling point in and of itself.

Furthermore, factor in cheaper electricity (Seattle is 4.62 cents/kWh for the first 10 kWh/day, 9.58 cents/kWh thereafter) or more expensive gasoline and there's an economic benefit, too.

It kind of stuns me--well, not really --that the PHEV Prius they're testing is logging essentially equivalent numbers to the Volt with "only" 3.5 kWh of battery instead of the 8 kWh usable on the Volt. I've said it once and I'll say it again: I think the concept of the Volt is great but it looks like Chevy screwed the pooch with this one.

 

[CBJ]

I think the concept of the Volt is great but it looks like Chevy screwed the pooch with this one.

Reminds of the scene in History of Violence when the henchman fails in his attempt to strangle Viggo Mortensen and the bother says to the dying henchman "how could you fock this up"

Maybe we all read the sign incorrectly and its says 23mpg not 230

 

[IH8Rice]

Maybe we all read the sign incorrectly and its says 23mpg not 230

well, the EPA never gave the Volt that rating, GM did.
the EPA still doesnt have a rating system for these types of vehicles yet, so GM's 230mpg rating, is just marketing hype

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/epa-backs-away-from-gm-claim-of-230-mpg-for-volt/
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/14/chevrolet-volt-loses-230-mpg-rating-victory-red-debuts/


they do try and clear the air about the gas engine powering the wheels though:

- The Volt has an innovative electric drive system which can deliver power in both pure electric and extended range driving. The Voltec Electric Drive cannot operate without power from the electric motors. If the traction motor is disabled, the range-extending internal combustion engine cannot drive the vehicle by itself.

- There is no direct mechanical connection (fixed gear ratio) between the Volt&#8217;s extended-range 1.4L engine and the drive wheels. In extended-range driving, the engine generates power that is fed through the drive unit and is balanced by the generator and traction motor. The resulting power flow provides a 10 to 15 percent improvement in highway fuel economy.

http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php/Volt/clearing-up-confusion-about-the-chevrolet-volt.html

 

[Toshi]

That bit here:

In extended-range driving, the engine generates power that is fed through the drive unit and is balanced by the generator and traction motor.

&#8230; is exactly how Toyota's HSD works.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

pretty bike. just saw one in the street while commuting today.
just out of curiosity and procrastination googled some info.... its the yamaha fz6, 150cc of fury.... 14hp on tap.

price??? ridiculously cheap. less than a good mountain bike. even less than a high end mountain bike FRAME.

locally, about $2500 including 19% sales tax. thats some seriously pretty bike for dirt cheap.

am driving tomorrow with a friend, who also defined the bike as awesome, to check them out at the Yamaha store....
definately looks like a fun toy to be had for the 20mph full-throtle shenanigans...

 

[syadasti]

That bit here:



&#8230; is exactly how Toyota's HSD works.

Toyota's must suck if its the same cause the Volt kills the PHEV Prius under lead footed editor normal use (and even maxed out at 101 mph its about the same as the Toyota PHEV Prius under normal conditions!):

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/13/127-mpg-what-motor-trend-got-driving-the-volt-in-the-rea/

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6719595/green/127-mpg-this-volt-story-must-be-told/index.html

Did General Motors lie or didn't they? The media and public got extremely swept up by the fact that GM told the world its range-extended electric vehicle would not use the on-board internal combustion engine to power the wheels, when it will under certain conditions. This bit of news has blown up in the General's face, but does it change the fact that the Volt is still a pretty amazing piece of automotive engineering? Motor Trend spent a couple of weeks with one and came away impressed by what the Chevrolet Volt could do. In fact, lead flip-flop lead-foot Jonny Lieberman scored some seat time and was able to hit 127 miles per gallon.

The 127 mpg figure was achieved over a variety of Los Angeles city streets, canyon roads and highways:

" In normal, everyday driving we got 127 miles per gallon (fine, 126.7 mpg). Which is pretty amazing. Broken down, over the course of 299 miles on Los Angeles highways, byways and freeways, the Volt burned 2.36 gallons of gasoline (fine, 2.359 gallons -- we rounded up). Most other cars use up a tank of gas going 299 miles. The Volt, to reiterate, used 2.36 gallons over 299 miles. That's freaking amazing!"

During the trip, the car ran out of battery power and the gasoline engine quietly turned on to give it more juice. Not to the wheels, but to the battery. If the car gets up over 70 miles per hour, then the ICE will send a small amount of power to the wheels, but by doing so it makes the car more efficient.

The M/T editors took the car on another trip and really tried to push it hard. They ran the Volt up to its 101 mph top speed, had the A/C cranked and traveled across some hilly terrain. The result? The Chevy returned nearly 75 mpg. MT feels the takeaway from its time with the Volt is that the car is incredibly efficient and the fact that the gasoline engine occasionally pitches in doesn't make it any less remarkable of a vehicle.

 

[dump]

It's hard to trust anything GM says. Their track record speaks for itself.

When it comes down to it, GM is not the kind of company I like to support with my money.

 

[syadasti]

It's hard to trust anything GM says. Their track record speaks for itself.

When it comes down to it, GM is not the kind of company I like to support with my money.

Toyota isn't any better, they are just better at hiding their issues and acting like they are green (Honda has been named the most green automaker again this year BTW) - see here

edit - 10-14-2010 - more news on actual Toyota "quality":

Bloomberg is reporting that Toyota has discovered that some of its suppliers aren't performing as many component quality checks as the company thought. Dino Triantafyllos, vice president of North American product quality, told the news agency that there was a "misunderstanding" as to how many checks were being performed, with some suppliers doing one quality check per year instead of the required four. Triantafyllos feels that the audit is working, adding "these improvements we're making, if we'd made them two years ago, maybe some of these issues wouldn't have happened."

Triantafyllos isn't alone in his efforts to eliminate future quality problems. The Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers, led by Hiroshi Osada, is also working with Toyota to improve quality. Osada claims that the problems that led to the recall of millions of vehicles occurred in the design development stage, adding that closer inspection of components "should be able to help prevent quality defects."

 

[IH8Rice]

more diesel awesomeness we cant get here in the States

Under the hood, the most potent engine available will be a stout 3.5-liter Duratorq turbocharged five-cylinder diesel with 200 horsepower and 346 lb-ft of twist, though the company says that there will be a choice of a total of three powerplant options, including one gasoline mill. No matter what engine buyers choose, Ford is serving up six-speed manual and automatic transmissions to handle shifting detail. Hit the jump to check out the full press release for yourself, and no, North Americans, you still can't have one.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/14/all-new-ford-ranger-debuts-for-the-rest-of-the-globe/

 

[dump]

Toyota isn't any better, they are just better at hiding their issues and acting like they are green (Honda has been named the most green automaker again this year BTW) - see here

edit - 10-14-2010 - more news on actual Toyota "quality":

Interesting, I can't speak for Toyota. My father has had good luck w/ 2 camrys and an avalon for what it's worth.

Honda definitely seems to be doing things right.

 

[jimmydean]

My father has had good luck w/ 2 camrys and an avalon for what it's worth.

My folks had about 6 Camry's over the last 30 years and I had 6 trucks. Wish I had Toyota luck with the old Malibu, that thing was a pile.

 

[syadasti]

My folks had about 6 Camry's over the last 30 years and I had 6 trucks. Wish I had Toyota luck with the old Malibu, that thing was a pile.

Yeah it would be great to have a Toyota truck that is a literal rust pile made from 1995-2003 too. It only took them until 2009 to admit they were poor quality. Or how about faulty engines that sludge up - only 3.5 million Toyota product affected by that. Even better, how about fault axles (SUVs) or steering (corolla, avalon, and LX470) which might kill you - those are both recalls in the 100,000's. That's Toyota superior quality

 

[DaveW]

Toyota!
It's the new Apple!

When it comes to reliablity I'd take a Toyota over a Ford or GM any day.

 

[jimmydean]

Yeah it would be great to have a Toyota truck that is a literal rust pile made from 1995-2003 too. It only took them until 2009 to admit they were poor quality. Or how about faulty engines that sludge up - only 3.5 million Toyota product affected by that. Even better, how about fault axles (SUVs) or steering (corolla, avalon, and LX470) which might kill you - those are both recalls in the 100,000's. That's Toyota superior quality

The only issue I had with any of my Toyota trucks was the faulty relay for the back window of my '88 4Runner and the fact the V6 was a bitch to work on due to space limitations, but I only owned 2 V6's and would never buy another.

I beat the living piss out of my '87 22R and my '91 22RE. But all my trucks were older ('85 DX 22R, '87 DX 22R, '88 SR5 V6, '92 SR5 V6, '91 DX 22RE, '92 DX 22RE). If the diesel was available here, I would buy an '89 to '95 Hilux in a heartbeat.

 

[syadasti]

The only issue I had with any of my Toyota trucks was the faulty relay for the back window of my '88 4Runner and the fact the V6 was a bitch to work on due to space limitations, but I only owned 2 V6's and would never buy another.

I beat the living piss out of my '87 22R and my '91 22RE. But all my trucks were older ('85 DX 22R, '87 DX 22R, '88 SR5 V6, '92 SR5 V6, '91 DX 22RE, '92 DX 22RE). If the diesel was available here, I would buy an '89 to '95 Hilux in a heartbeat.

No doubt they were way ahead when most people formed their opinion of Toyota as a brand back then but no brands are static and reality is even Toyota admits their current design and quality control is no longer the best.

 

[jimmydean]

No doubt they were way ahead when most people formed their opinion of Toyota as a brand back then but no brands are static and reality is even Toyota admits their current design and quality control is no longer the best.

So what does that mean when it's still (at least in appearance) well ahead of anything out of Detroit? Hell, my ex-wife has an '05 Camry outfitted with foot controls that has had 1/10 of the issues her Passat had over the same time frame. But even her crap Passat was better than my Malibu.

 

[syadasti]

So what does that mean when it's still (at least in appearance) well ahead of anything out of Detroit? Hell, my ex-wife has an '05 Camry outfitted with foot controls that has had 1/10 of the issues her Passat had over the same time frame. But even her crap Passat was better than my Malibu.

All those recalls I mentioned were significant issues affected larger numbers of Toyota vehicles and the quotes in the articles linked above are from Toyota employees - it can't get more clear than that. Toyota's current track record speaks for itself too.

Osada claims that the problems that led to the recall of millions of vehicles occurred in the design development stage, adding that closer inspection of components "should be able to help prevent quality defects."

Triantafyllos, vice president of North American product quality, told the news agency that there was a "misunderstanding" as to how many checks were being performed, with some suppliers doing one quality check per year instead of the required four.

At a news conference last month, Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe offered an elaborate apology.

"I take this seriously and see it as a crisis," Mr. Watanabe said. He then bowed deeply in front of the cameras, adding, "I want to apologize deeply for the troubles we have caused."

Though not final, a move to slow product cycles would mark a step back from an aggressive strategy for global expansion set in motion in the mid-1990s by then-President Hiroshi Okuda.

...

Toyota executives and engineers say one factor behind the rise in recalls is the company's recent strategy to use the same components in a wider range of vehicles to save costs. Often when a component is found defective, it is found on not just one or two models but several products sold across the globe -- a factor that explains in part why the number of vehicles affected by a recall often is well more than half a million.

Toyota also has made what one engineer describes as a "clear and conscious change" in the way it handles recalls in the wake of a painful scandal involving an alleged coverup of vehicle defects by Japan's Mitsubishi Motors Corp. a few years ago, which crippled sales and drove Mitsubishi to the brink of collapse.

"We used to do quiet recalls called 'service campaigns' to deal with many defects, but we're not going to hide anything any more," said one senior engineer. "Most of the known defects and issues are now handled through recalls."

Still, the fast pace of new-model launches -- and pressure to keep product launches on schedule -- has given rise to what another senior engineer calls "bonehead" mistakes.

In Japan this year, for instance, Toyota discovered it had made the rear axle of one sport-utility vehicle with the material used for another SUV. Designs for the two rear axles are almost identical, but the metal materials used to produce them are different enough that mixing the parts up caused concern over the strength of the axle. A Toyota spokesman said there was a question of the strength of the axle but declined to elaborate.

This engineer was lying, nothing has changed - they are still using quiet recalls today for their product defects...

 

[I.van]

more diesel awesomeness we cant get here in the States

MOAR.
http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2010/commercial/nissan/navara/aims-new-550nm-diesel-for-nissan-navara-pathfinder-22087

Nissan has today announced its new generation V6 turbodiesel engine will be offered in the new range topping Navara ST-X 550 and Pathfinder Ti 500 models from early next year.

Utilising the latest direct-injection technology, the 3.0-litre mill develops a class-leading 170kW/550Nm, with maximum torque available from a low 1750rpm. Developed in conjunction with Alliance partner Renault, the new engine meets strict new Euro 5 emissions requirements while also offering excellent fuel economy. Nissan claims the engine's combined average is 9.5L/100km.

 

[jimmydean]

The intake manifold gasket on my Malibu failed 3 times in 120k miles. The first 2 were covered under warranty, the last one was $1800 out of pocket. My life wasn't in danger, but Chevy never admitted or addressed the issue with the design and failure caused coolant to leak into the cylinders causing poor performance and mileage.

You talk like Toyota is the only auto company to lie/cover/hide what my industry calls "undocumented features" in released products. Not saying Toyota did right with the PR moves, but I will never buy another 'Merican car.

 

[syadasti]

You talk like Toyota is the only auto company to lie/cover/hide what my industry calls "undocumented features" in released products. Not saying Toyota did right with the PR moves, but I will never buy another 'Merican car.

I can also tell a meaningless personal story about a single example of product. I had a GM product with a Honda V6 drivetrain. This drivetrain was recalled on all Hondas, not my GM product because GM had to redesign the trans cooling system to fit in the crowded engine bay and they didn't screw it up but this has nothing to do with the big picture right now either.

The current state of the brands and products is what matters for current products and potential customers. Toyota grew too fast and became a GM - they admitted it themselves. Ford has clearly turned themselves around. GM not quite as much and Chrysler is still pretty far behind most of the market.

 

[Toshi]

You owned a Saturn Vue Red Line? I didn't know _anyone_ at all bought those.

 

[rockofullr]

The intake manifold gasket on my Malibu failed 3 times in 120k miles.

LOL you own a Malibu?

Please tell me your lady drives it!

 

[syadasti]

You owned a Saturn Vue Red Line? I didn't know _anyone_ at all bought those.

No I had a regular 04 3.5L FWD Vue - all V6 trims had that drivetrain starting in 2004 MY. I bought it specifically for the drivetrain. Toyota thought it was a good idea because the RAV4 now comes with a V6 and its one of the most liked small crossovers on the market for its responsive drivetrain.

 

[jimmydean]

LOL you own a Malibu?

Please tell me your lady drives it!

I bought it for my wife in 2000 (traded in my '91 Toyota for it) when my daughter was born because my Toy was only a 2 seater. She liked it, I hated that car from day 1. She hated it after a year, but we finally traded it in last year on a 2004 Corolla Sport that is 100x nicer than that POS.

I should correct my claim:

I will never buy another 'Merican car made AFTER 1972. At least the early ones are correctable.

 

[syadasti]

I will never buy another 'Merican car made AFTER 1972. At least the early ones are correctable.

A big portion of the Asian (Japanese/Korean) brands have a significant part of their design and R&D divisions US-based plus they have US-based manfacturing so you are screwed then I guess