[C.P.]

What are people's thoughts on buying an off lease 2011 (previous rental car) electric car. I found a dealer that has a number of Leaf's for sale with low mileage (like under 8K) and what seem to be decent prices (like 25K-28K), they are all in mint condition. Compared to new, this seems like a good deal. Dont know if they come with home charger or not...? thoughts?

 

[Toshi]

You don't get the tax credit if it's not new. Make sure to factor in that $7500 credit when comparing to new prices… I'd rather spend $5k more and get something brand new, personally.

 

[C.P.]

You don't get the tax credit if it's not new. Make sure to factor in that $7500 credit when comparing to new prices… I'd rather spend $5k more and get something brand new, personally.

Well, the tax credit is not as straight forward as I originally thought. It clearly states "UP TO $7500.00. A friend of mine didn't get anywhere near the full $7500, supposedly because of his income level. It also has interesting rules that apply, for example, the tax credit will not, under any circumstances, exceed your tax liability. This means you can’t use the credit to generate a tax refund. In other words, if after preparing your taxes, you find you owe the government $7,500, and you bought a suitably qualifying vehicle, you’re in luck; your tax bill will be reduced to zero.

However, if you owe say, $2,500, that $2,500 will be the total amount of your tax credit and your tax bill will be reduced to zero. The government isn’t going to then turn around and refund you the other $5,000. Similarly, if you owe no taxes at all, you won’t get the electric car tax credit, nor will you be permitted to roll it, (or as in the scenario above, the $5,000 “balance&#8221 into your potential 2012 tax liability.

However, if you’re a person who typically qualifies for a refund, there is a nice little loophole you could slip through. You could still technically take advantage of the $7,500 credit by leasing a fully qualifying electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle instead of buying it. Most leasing companies automatically apply the credit toward the capital reduction payment required to establish the lease. This strategy enables you to get the benefit of the electric car tax credit, regardless of your potential tax liability.

Also, the Internal Revenue Code Section 30D provides a credit for Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicles including passenger vehicles and light trucks. For vehicles acquired after 12/31/2009, the electric car tax credit is equal to $2,500 plus, for a vehicle, which draws propulsion energy from a battery with at least five kilowatt-hours of capacity, $417, plus an additional $417 for each kilowatt-hour of battery capacity in excess of five kilowatt-hours. The total amount of the credit allowed for a vehicle is limited to $7,500.

reference link

There's a lot that I've read, and I'm still trying to figure it all out. I have to keep some of the other benefits in mind as I consider the purchase. For one, there are State level benefits and rebate programs to consider (depending on your state), but things like reduced registration fees, free parking, lower use taxes, and/or access to high occupancy vehicle (carpool) lanes will help with overall cost of ownership...

New is nice, but I will not lease (or borrow to buy), this will be a cash transaction.

More info here:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/article/0,,id=214841,00.html
Form here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8936.pdf

 

[syadasti]

 

[Toshi]

Well, the tax credit is not as straight forward as I originally thought. It clearly states "UP TO $7500.00. A friend of mine didn't get anywhere near the full $7500, supposedly because of his income level. It also has interesting rules that apply, for example, the tax credit will not, under any circumstances, exceed your tax liability. This means you can’t use the credit to generate a tax refund. In other words, if after preparing your taxes, you find you owe the government $7,500, and you bought a suitably qualifying vehicle, you’re in luck; your tax bill will be reduced to zero.

There's a lot that I've read, and I'm still trying to figure it all out. I have to keep some of the other benefits in mind as I consider the purchase. For one, there are State level benefits and rebate programs to consider (depending on your state), but things like reduced registration fees, free parking, lower use taxes, and/or access to high occupancy vehicle (carpool) lanes will help with overall cost of ownership...

$7500 tax liability is $56k AGI iirc, standard deduction. If one is making less than that they shouldn't be buying $30k vehicles of any kind, IMO. Of course, Romney style deductions (or even big greater than standard deductions--big mortgage?) may reduce one's tax burden to less than $7500 even with higher incomes, in which case I have no pity.

The state benefits indeed can be significant. Look up your state here: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/state

In Washington State the benefits aren't as generous as say, Colorado or California, but they're still not a pittance: sales tax waived (~9% so a good chunk of money!), registration waived, too iirc.

 

[stevew]

75mpg?

Litre?

 

[Toshi]

That looks like an Elantra GT in our market.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicles/2013/elantra-gt/specifications.aspx?

27/39/32 stick, 28/39/32 MPG manual.

 

[syadasti]

That looks like an Elantra GT in our market.

But we don't get the smaller and/or diesel drivetrain options:

offers a choice of four engines with a total of six power options and CO2 emissions below 100 g/km due to an upgraded 1.6-litre diesel unit. The next-generation i30 will go on sale in Europe early in 2012 as a five-door hatchback. It will be produced in Europe at the company's manufacturing facility in Nošovice, Czech Republic

 

[syadasti]

This seems like alternative musical transportation to me???

 

[Toshi]

I'm pretty sure I posted about this when the idea was announced, but it has now come to fruition: there's a small scale but certainly non-negligible setup in the Philly train system to recover the electricity regenerated through braking. (Before it was just radiated as heat.)

Wired: Trains Try Regenerative Braking in Philly

Nitty gritty:

- $1.5M for this system, with another $1.4M system planned
- estimated $190k savings in electricity per year
- 1.5 MW of regenerative capacity, limited by funding
- "more than 4,000" 30Ah (but unspecified voltage?!) "nickel cobalt aluminum" batteries

 

[CBJ]

Toshi did you see the NY Times test of your Toyota?

 

[Toshi]

Toshi did you see the NY Times test of your Toyota?

Indeed I did. I confined my blatherings about that review to Google+ and my ride pics thread, though:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16951&p=3822859&viewfull=1#post3822859

 

[Pesqueeb]

Courtesy of Reddit:
http://sphericaldrivesystem.com/

 

[Toshi]

Courtesy of Reddit:
http://sphericaldrivesystem.com/

Why?! Just because they did it in iRobot? :derp:


In snuck-in-under-my-radar news, Honda apparently will offer a PHEV version of the 2014 Accord:

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/09/getting-a-charge-from-driving-the-2014-honda-accord-plug-in-hybrid.html

Price TBD, eligible for $3,750 in tax credits.

6.7 kWh of lithium powering an unspecified electric motor capable of "highway speeds" for up to 15 miles, after or beyond which a 2 liter 4-banger kicks in. The gas engine can act as a generator or can drive the car directly.

Since they speced a 6.6 kW charger recharging should only take an hour and change. Curious choice, that. The downside of all this hardware is that the trunk is tiny...

Will it flop? Will Honda advertise it? We shall see. I won't be lining up for one, though: BEV or bust for me, at least for my wife's car...

 

[CBJ]

Indeed I did. I confined my blatherings about that review to Google+ and my ride pics thread, though:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16951&p=3822859&viewfull=1#post3822859

Nice! Really sounds like a good car for you guys. I hate driving SUVs and would rather have seen it in a wagon but I am a crazy Euro of course.

 

[Toshi]

Modern CUVs are basically rebranded tall wagons. The OG tall wagons:

 

[syadasti]

AMC Eagle was the original tall crossover 4WD, released just over 33 years ago:

The Eagle came about when Jeep's chief engineer, Roy Lunn, joined a Concord body with a four-wheel-drive system.[3] Such a vehicle was a logical step for AMC, according to then CEO Gerald C. Meyers, as a second energy crisis had hit in 1979, and sales of AMC's highly profitable truck-based Jeep line dropped in part to their low fuel efficiency, leaving AMC in a precarious financial position.[1] The Eagle provided a low-cost way of bridging the gap between AMC's solid and economical, but aging, passenger car line and its well-regarded, but decidedly off-road-focused, Jeep line, as the Eagle used the existing Concord (and later, Spirit) automobile platform.

...

In doing so, the small American manufacturer was seen as having cleverly pioneered a new market segment - one that would grow wildly over the next 25 years and beyond, as evinced by Four Wheeler magazine's conclusion in 1980 that the new AMC Eagle was, indeed, "The beginning of a new generation of cars."[14] Even as the automaker was struggling financially, "AMC's reputation for developing vehicles on the cheap is only exceeded by its legacy of midwifing the SUV", including the Eagle to be the precursor to one of the most popular vehicle types on the market.[15] Indeed, the Eagle's basic concept - that of a station wagon with AWD, raised ground clearance, full range of power options and automatic transmissions, as well as rough-road capability - has inspired vehicles like the Subaru Outback and Forester lines, the Audi Allroad, the Volvo XC range, and many others.[3][10] Similarly, motoring journalist Marty Padgett described AMC's car-based 1980 Eagle, combining all-weather capability with better gas mileage, as "the first crossover," that was succeeded by whole generations of Subaru vehicles and other models,[16]

 

[jackalope]

Here ya go syn http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670753/this-9-cardboard-bike-can-support-riders-up-to-485lbs

Hope it's not a mandown repost. Also, I saw an interesting article about an after market regenerative braking system, which may be old hat, but new to me.

 

[Toshi]

Yet more RAV4 EV details emerge: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/09/50000-electric-toyota-rav4-rated-at-76-mpg-equivalent.html

- September 24 California on-sale date! Finally a real date instead of a handwavy "soon"!
- 76 MPGe with a 103 mile EPA 5-cycle (2008 test) official range. The Leaf is 106 MPGe and 73 miles, in comparison.
- Legal in California HOV lanes for solo drivers (as are the Leaf, iMiEV, and Volt, iirc)
- 1.9% loan rates for qualified buyers! presumably through Toyota Financial. I sure hope I'm a qualified buyer...

 

[syadasti]

No fans for BMW EVs?

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/09/19/bmw-developing-infrared-heating-system-for-evs/#continued

 

[Toshi]

BMW has been great so far only at peddling test programs and vaporware of future product plans.

 

[syadasti]

No fans as in future EVs may have no fans for heating...

 

[UiUiUiUi]

hm i once got to drive the mini e was a fun car, felt rather heavy though because actually it was ^^

i like the hybrids though. ok i only got to drive the x6 hybrid and the 7 series none of the newer ones because i quit my job there...

would have loved to see the development of the i3 ans i8

 

[CBJ]

BMW has been great so far only at peddling test programs and vaporware of future product plans.

Friends of mine have leased the battery powered 1 series here in the US. I has been in the shop several times so maybe there is a reason why they do not have more offerings.

 

[syadasti]

The SLS AMG Coupé Electric Drive is an all electric car. The most powerful AMG high-performance vehicle of all time has four electric motors producing a total output of 552 kW and a maximum torque of 1000 Nm.

 

[snake666]

I'm pretty sure I posted about this when the idea was announced, but it has now come to fruition: there's a small scale but certainly non-negligible setup in the Philly train system to recover the electricity regenerated through braking. (Before it was just radiated as heat.)

Wired: Trains Try Regenerative Braking in Philly

Nitty gritty:

- $1.5M for this system, with another $1.4M system planned
- estimated $190k savings in electricity per year
- 1.5 MW of regenerative capacity, limited by funding
- "more than 4,000" 30Ah (but unspecified voltage?!) "nickel cobalt aluminum" batteries

its called the KERS System

 

[syadasti]

Toyota - Moving Backwards:

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/rkassel/man-bites-dog_toyota_sues_to_s.html

So, to sum up: Instead of working through the regulatory process, they quietly filed a lawsuit against a mere proposal. And somehow, they got a court to agree to stop the proposal before it could be finalized, and before the public was aware of what Toyota was trying to do.

Clearly, this is a man-bites-dog situation: the auto company that has made its name selling fuel-efficient cars in the US has been secretly suing to stop progress on fuel economy south of our border.

Stunning.

 

[syadasti]

3 Million Toyota Prius models recalled

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/14/toyota-recalling-2-77-million-vehicles-for-water-pump-steering/

Automotive News reports Toyota is recalling a total of 2.77 million vehicles worldwide for faulty water pumps and steering system issues. A total of 670,000 of those are 2004-2009 Prius hybrids sold in the US. Those vehicles are headed back to the dealer, where technicians will inspect the intermediate shaft in the steering column for deformed splines and replace the shaft if necessary. Around 350,000 of those same models will also be inspected for a faulty electric water pump. In some cases, the motor driving the pump could stop, causing the electric motor to overheat and stop functioning while being driven.

 

[Toshi]

3 Million Toyota Prius models recalled

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/14/toyota-recalling-2-77-million-vehicles-for-water-pump-steering/

Not quite. 2.77M recalled worldwide, of which 670k are US market Prii. The others are unspecified, and not all Prii:

The recalls also affect 496,000 vehicles in Europe and a further 1.5 million in Japan. All told, the steering shaft recall covers 10 models worldwide, including the Corolla and Wish models manufactured in Japan between 2000 and 2009. Five models are affected by the water pump recall, though we're still waiting for confirmation from Toyota as to which they are.

Heh. "Prii" looks so stupid in print...

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

most people would be surprised at the amount of "recalls" there are in the industry.

am not sure on the legality in the US of some common practices i´ve seen around south america, but there are several "secret" recalls, usually reserved for less urgent stuff.
say, you take in your car for service, and they replace/adjust something without letting you explicitly know about it. in my market, it happens at least once a year.

then, when i moved to service manager, and had access to more information; i came to realize there are several proposed (or even requested) "recalls" for known issues that never get pass the "proposed" status, way, way more than the 1 or 2 every other year that seem to surprise people so much....

what most people see is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Toshi]

2013 Leaf details: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/11/new-nissan-leaf-promises-you-more-or-less/

Time will tell whether these JDM changes make it in full to the (Smryna built?) USDM model. Key changes include: 10% more range, possibly by virtue of strengthened regenerative braking; optional leather upholstery and a Bose stereo; and, possibly most significantly, the substitution of a heat pump in place of a pure resistive heating element.

This last is important because the >1 coefficient of performance of a heat pump will halve or perhaps cut by two thirds heating loads and the resultant range loss.

In any case, the outside appearance isn't changed. Here's the outside, in case you've been living under a rock, as well as the new interior leather:

Other notable vehicles in terms of HVAC: The PHEV Prius prototypes (but not the production model) also employed a heat pump, and the Volvo C30 EV prototypes employ a small biodiesel burner for auxiliary heat, of all things. Finally, the series 200 Land Cruiser and its Lexus cousin boast of the following:

In extreme cold situations, the Land Cruiser’s auxiliary Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) heater warms air instantly by passing it over an electrically heated ceramic element.

 

[CBJ]

Would love to zip around NYC in an electric car. I like the looks of the Nissan but no where to charge.

 

[Toshi]

Would love to zip around NYC in an electric car. I like the looks of the Nissan but no where to charge.

Hertz On Demand has a Smart EV and two Nissan Leafs to try out in midtown and the Houston St area, respectively. I imagine they live in spots with chargers whenever not being rented.

www.hertzondemand.com

 

[Toshi]

Autoblog: LA display confirms diesel Mazda6 for US

If true, this is very interesting. Not VWAG/BMW/Merc. 173 hp. 310 ft-lbs. of torque.

 

[syadasti]

Honda has had a nice diesel drivetrain for cars just not in the US (were US rumors for a while though).

 

[CBJ]

If you sell cars in Europe you have to have good diesel options. I remember reading its something like 50% of cars sold that are diesel.

 

[jimmydean]

Call me when a left hand version of this comes to town.

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/52448/2012-toyota-hilux-4x4-double-cab-sr-road-test-diesel-review-australia

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Call me when a left hand version of this comes to town.

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/52448/2012-toyota-hilux-4x4-double-cab-sr-road-test-diesel-review-australia

there is. its sold around here, starting at $32k. 25mpg city / 30mpg hway.
the 3 liter version is pretty kickass. one of (if not THE) best pickup ever made. has every bit of power at 15000ft asl, as at sea level.

 

[IH8Rice]

i too am excited that Mazda is bringing their awesome diesel to the US. their gas engine gets 40mpg so im hoping this would be significantly higher (though early reports say 43mpg ) and it blows other small 4cyl diesels away in the torque category.


the "new" Hilux actually got last place on pickuptrucks.com shootout w/ the new Ranger (of course not coming to the US) winning.

results:
http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2012/08/global-pickup-shootout-results.html

overview:
http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2012/08/global-pickup-shootout-overview.html

 

[C.P.]

Speaking of Diesel Alternative Transportation...anyone have a Prius they want to convert?

http://dieseltoys.com/pricing-2/toyota-diesels/prius-diesel