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The Car thread

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
12,853
4,718
AK
:stupid:

I don't know how to brake with my clutch foot. What am I supposed to do with my left foot? I would have to relearn to drive. And also no heel/toe. Where is the fun in auto rev matching?
The real secret to going fast and shaving seconds is about weight transfer and loading relative to power application and braking. Thats where the fun is.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
31,438
3,744
I can't see why you wouldn't want swappable batteries. Owning the battery is a huge downside to me.
Because you adopt the risks of the prior users of the pack that was swapped in in terms of bouncing off of the 100% and 0% states of charge.

I'd rather know and own it, but then again my driving patterns don't require anything but charging at home (1 or 2—10 kW level 2 EVSE at each).
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
6,951
4,131
Crawlorado
Because you adopt the risks of the prior users of the pack that was swapped in in terms of bouncing off of the 100% and 0% states of charge.

I'd rather know and own it, but then again my driving patterns don't require anything but charging at home (1 or 2—10 kW level 2 EVSE at each).
I guess it depends on how the battery swap service is structured. Are you paying a monthly fee for use of a battery? Is the fee based on miles driven? Or are you paying a fee for use of a particular battery?

Options 1 and 2 make the most sense to me, and it wouldn't be a huge deal if you got a bum battery. Just go swap it out for a new one.
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
4,096
1,424
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
c'mon 'murica. if you can do it with propane tanks you can do it with batteries!
That's not the reason Tesla backed away from it. It was too much overhead for the swapping stations. Batteries are like $20k, and a busy station would need an ungodly amount of them. Ideally they'd be owned by the manufacturer like propane tanks are so that when they get degraded the station nor customer is left holding the bag. Tesla stepped away from the idea because they didn't want the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of batteries on their balance sheets, nor did they want to lock themselves into a specific battery shape, size or voltage forever.

Consumers would go nuts for it, the potential of battery degradation is a bit issue, as is range anxiety, swappable batteries would solve both. As much as some people love shitting on 'Murica, this isn't really a "Murica" issue.
 
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junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,684
1,204
San Diego
Naw, I just want the doofus asking me to do burnouts to buy me a new set of the $2K tires.
that guy is the worst. They always scream it when you stopped at a crosswalk in town too. The drunk Karen version common in the southwest I find particularly offensive.
 

junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,684
1,204
San Diego
If you’


That's not the reason Tesla backed away from it. It was too much overhead for the swapping stations. Batteries are like $20k, and a busy station would need an ungodly amount of them. Ideally they'd be owned by the manufacturer like propane tanks are so that when they get degraded the station nor customer is left holding the bag. Tesla stepped away from the idea because they didn't want the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of batteries on their balance sheets, nor did they want to lock themselves into a specific battery shape, size or voltage forever.

Consumers would go nuts for it, the potential of battery degradation is a bit issue, as is range anxiety, swappable batteries would solve both. As much as some people love shitting on 'Murica, this isn't really a "Murica" issue.
ya but one day.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
6,501
1,554
Are batteries really $20k for the manufacturer?

That's not the reason Tesla backed away from it. It was too much overhead for the swapping stations. Batteries are like $20k, and a busy station would need an ungodly amount of them. Ideally they'd be owned by the manufacturer like propane tanks are so that when they get degraded the station nor customer is left holding the bag. Tesla stepped away from the idea because they didn't want the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of batteries on their balance sheets, nor did they want to lock themselves into a specific battery shape, size or voltage forever.

Consumers would go nuts for it, the potential of battery degradation is a bit issue, as is range anxiety, swappable batteries would solve both. As much as some people love shitting on 'Murica, this isn't really a "Murica" issue.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
34,014
8,429
Riding the baggage carousel.
So close to what I was hoping it would be. Needs a bit less Frunk space and a bit more battery, and I'm not totally on board with the IRS, would have preferred a solid axle for towing. Still a damn cool truck, mostly because it's so bland and boring, no triangles or "bulletproof" windows.

I said it in @Toshi's thread and I'll say it here:

4 doors and independent rear suspension is not a truck, it's a minivan. The target demo here is suburban dad-bros whose ego is too fragile to buy a car that suits their actual needs.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
11,297
779
Hypernormality
That's not the reason Tesla backed away from it. It was too much overhead for the swapping stations. Batteries are like $20k, and a busy station would need an ungodly amount of them. Ideally they'd be owned by the manufacturer like propane tanks are so that when they get degraded the station nor customer is left holding the bag. Tesla stepped away from the idea because they didn't want the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of batteries on their balance sheets, nor did they want to lock themselves into a specific battery shape, size or voltage forever.

Consumers would go nuts for it, the potential of battery degradation is a bit issue, as is range anxiety, swappable batteries would solve both. As much as some people love shitting on 'Murica, this isn't really a "Murica" issue.
I’ve read more than one thing saying that was the reason, but maybe that was a factor too.
Business Insider said:
At the company’s recent shareholder meeting, Musk told investors that few Tesla owners have used the company’s swapping station at Harris Ranch, California, located between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

“We’ve invited all the Model S owners in the area to try it out, and of the first round of 200 invitations, only four or five people were interested,” Musk said at the meeting. “Clearly it’s not very popular.”

An independant survey of 145 Tesla owners conducted by Jefferies, support Tesla’s findings.
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
4,096
1,424
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
Are batteries really $20k for the manufacturer?

Honestly who knows, and it would depend a lot on which EV we're talking about. This seems to show them as $13.5k, so not as bad as I thought https://www.currentautomotive.com/how-much-does-a-tesla-model-3-battery-replacement-cost/ Assuming Tesla gets a 20% margin on those, which is probably way more than they actually make, that's an $11k battery. Not horrific, but still a logistical nightmare unless packs were standardized like propane tanks.


Fast charging seems like it's just evolving so fast that it's going to become more practical to charge faster than any kind of swap system could become viable. Perfect world they would both happen, so kinda like my propane tanks, I could keep my "good" ones but swap one out if and when I need to, and it would drastically increase the lifespan of an EV. Add in some of the recycling concepts that simply repurpose degraded cells into home back-up batteries instead of scrapping them and it could work pretty damn well long term.
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
4,096
1,424
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
I’ve read more than one thing saying that was the reason, but maybe that was a factor too.
You have a link to the rest of that article? Interested if they delve into the failure a bit more. 4-5 people taking advantage of it could be the result of a bunch of factors, not the least of which being located at Harris Ranch. I imagine they'd have much better success on the 101 instead of the 5 because the 101 connects the Bay Area to LA and a whole lot of popular rich person vacation stops along the way, but the 5 connects LA to bumfuck nowhere, unless you go way, way further north.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
44,111
9,849
Sleazattle
Honestly who knows, and it would depend a lot on which EV we're talking about. This seems to show them as $13.5k, so not as bad as I thought https://www.currentautomotive.com/how-much-does-a-tesla-model-3-battery-replacement-cost/ Assuming Tesla gets a 20% margin on those, which is probably way more than they actually make, that's an $11k battery. Not horrific, but still a logistical nightmare unless packs were standardized like propane tanks.


Fast charging seems like it's just evolving so fast that it's going to become more practical to charge faster than any kind of swap system could become viable. Perfect world they would both happen, so kinda like my propane tanks, I could keep my "good" ones but swap one out if and when I need to, and it would drastically increase the lifespan of an EV. Add in some of the recycling concepts that simply repurpose degraded cells into home back-up batteries instead of scrapping them and it could work pretty damn well long term.

Charging technology has little to do with the chargers but with the batteries. If and when solid state batteries hit the market they will be able to be charged at much higher rates and hold more power with less weight. Hopefully by the time I need another car they will be commercially prevalent.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
11,297
779
Hypernormality
You have a link to the rest of that article? Interested if they delve into the failure a bit more. 4-5 people taking advantage of it could be the result of a bunch of factors, not the least of which being located at Harris Ranch. I imagine they'd have much better success on the 101 instead of the 5 because the 101 connects the Bay Area to LA and a whole lot of popular rich person vacation stops along the way, but the 5 connects LA to bumfuck nowhere, unless you go way, way further north.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
11,297
779
Hypernormality
Hydrogen will be the shit once we have the infrastructure for it. All the power of a BEV with much lower weight and ‘normal’ refuelling but with much better range. It is the best of both worlds, again, once the infrastructure exists.

 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
17,410
2,882
Colorado
You have a link to the rest of that article? Interested if they delve into the failure a bit more. 4-5 people taking advantage of it could be the result of a bunch of factors, not the least of which being located at Harris Ranch. I imagine they'd have much better success on the 101 instead of the 5 because the 101 connects the Bay Area to LA and a whole lot of popular rich person vacation stops along the way, but the 5 connects LA to bumfuck nowhere, unless you go way, way further north.
5 is how you get from SF to LA. It's 1.5hrs faster to go down 5.
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
4,096
1,424
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
5 is how you get from SF to LA. It's 1.5hrs faster to go down 5.
Less than 40 miles further on the 101 vs the 5, but no grapevine, you don't have to pass through Bakersfield, and it's scenic as hell. Who would choose the 5 over the 101?

Put the batter swap station in Paso Robles and I'll bet at least 12 people would have stopped there.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
6,501
1,554
I have never driven on the 5 without it being a shitshow for some reason.
Sounds familiar. Last time I drove down, there was a grass fire that crossed all four lanes. People slowed but were not phased.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
12,853
4,718
AK
Hydrogen will be the shit once we have the infrastructure for it. All the power of a BEV with much lower weight and ‘normal’ refuelling but with much better range. It is the best of both worlds, again, once the infrastructure exists.

And don't forget, it'll be a shit-ton more expensive than electricity, no instant torque, no utilizing the grid overnight (increases efficiency), yay!
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
11,297
779
Hypernormality
And don't forget, it'll be a shit-ton more expensive than electricity, no instant torque, no utilizing the grid overnight (increases efficiency), yay!
Nope, the hydrogen will be produced by dedicated green power and also under-utilised green (or not) power plants, so the grid efficiency will be high.
Yes it has instant torque, it is the same electric motors as any other EV, in fact it might be even boostier as you generally run a super capacitor between the cell and the motors.
Hydrogen is predicted to drop in price very fast over the next decade. When it’s a couple of bucks a kilo it’ll be in all the things.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
3,059
799
I got to play cars today, has been a long time between any non work based auto shenanigans.
A friend has a 40 series Troopy that can somehow draw over 100amps with everything on so I'm having a second go at fitting a 180 amp alternator, my boss was annoying the shit outta me when I was making the first one and I mis-measured the height which made it useless.
20210522_131554.jpg20210522_141526.jpg20210522_190519 (2).jpg
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
31,438
3,744
yeah

Although China currently has the world's largest installed capacity of hydro, solar and wind power, its energy needs are so large that in 2019, renewable sources provided 26% of its electricity generation[8]—compared to 17% in the U.S.A.[9]—with most of the remainder provided by coal power plants.
so 74% coal powered. Like an EV in Wyoming if not offset!

/me has PV on the roof and the rest of the grid power is offset by solar RECs for whatever that's worth
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
6,501
1,554
Nope, the hydrogen will be produced by dedicated green power and also under-utilised green (or not) power plants, so the grid efficiency will be high.
Yes it has instant torque, it is the same electric motors as any other EV, in fact it might be even boostier as you generally run a super capacitor between the cell and the motors.
Hydrogen is predicted to drop in price very fast over the next decade. When it’s a couple of bucks a kilo it’ll be in all the things.
I don’t know much about hydrogen, so I read the Wikipedia page. This doesn’t sound good. What am I missing?

A few other companies, like BMW, are still exploring hydrogen cars, while e.g. VW has expressed that the technology has no future in the automotive space, mainly because a fuel cell electric vehicle consumes about three times more energy than a battery electric car for each mile driven. As of December 2020, there were 31,225 passenger FCEVS powered with hydrogen on the world's roads.[3]

As of 2019, 98% of hydrogen is produced by steam methane reforming, which emits carbon dioxide.[4] It can be produced by thermochemical or pyrolytic means using renewable feedstocks, but the processes are currently expensive.[5] Various technologies are being developed that aim to deliver costs low enough, and quantities great enough, to compete with hydrogen production using natural gas.[6] The drawbacks of hydrogen use are high carbon emissions intensity when produced from natural gas, capital cost burden, low energy content per unit volume at ambient conditions, production and compression of hydrogen, the investment required in filling stations to dispense hydrogen, transportation of hydrogen to filling stations and lack of ability to produce or dispense hydrogen at home.[7][8][9]