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Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,720
2,706
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Widespread car adoption won’t be the first use.

Initially Green Hydrogen will (is) being used to a) store and transport energy, mostly on a seasonal scale — it doesn’t lose charge or degrade like a battery, b) for large things where battery weight is problematic e.g. ships, trains, large industrial stuff, and c) industrial heat as a replacement for carbon fuels.

People see there is a hole in our efforts to decarbonise the entire economy with things like process heat and shipping being particularly problematic for batteries to handle. Hydrogen will help fill that gap significantly, being used in different ways.

Right now we make H2 cheaply but in a very carbon dirty way — the Haber Bosch process. This H2 is only ~$1/kg, but dirty as heck. It is referred to as brown hydrogen.

As we decarbonise, we will use dedicated farms and excess generation to simply make H2 with electrolysers. You can make electrolysers that are quite efficient at many scales. This will be a very very green ‘fuel’/energy carrier.

The problems today are:

1) the cost of making Green H2 at the moment, which is about $7/kg, and really the biggest part of that is just there is no large scale infrastructure or manufacturing of the stuff you need. All the stuff you can buy at the moment is comparatively niche. We need a few large industrials pumping out electrolysers on a large scale. A very large company I work with recons simply ramping up to the existing demand for a country like Australia would reduce the cost down to in the order of $2/kg. Pair that with a revolution in electrolyser/fuel cell research and it isn’t hard to see how it can become cost competitive with brown. Then add in (hopefully) carbon taxes and it becomes obvious.

2) Infrastructure — You need the same thing we have today for petrol but for H2. This is why it is sometimes criticised as being a back door for big oil because for them it’s just slight different engineering standards. Essentially as they will roll into H2 infrastructure as hydrocarbons become less viable/acceptable/cost effective (carbon taxes). This is probably what will eventually happen, you’ll get H2 from Shell or whatever, but before that Hydrogen infrastructure will be focussed in hubs like ports, industrial estates and the like. This makes a lot of sense because this is where all the early-adopter vehicles
use cases live, so there is quite an elegance there.

So Germany, Japan, America, China, Saudi, UK are all piling money into Green H2 and H2 research right now, as are many other governments at smaller scales. Here is an idea of the investment that is happening from the private sector alone:


Anyway, to answer your question finally, once Green H2 is used at large scale to store green energy and decarbonise heavy industries, it will be cheap as chips. Then you will see it being used more seriously in smaller applications because it is suddenly cheap and convenient, and for a lot of use cases, actually better than BEVs. I think particularly for us outdoor types, in 15 years you’ll be using H2 fuel cells in things like campers, drones, ebikes, maybe even camping stoves. Even with today’s tech, a H2 drone can go further, longer, faster than a BEV but you getting H2 is obviously a highly niche, expensive activity.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,122
10,679
AK
As you start to de-carbonize things like cars and other ICE applications, you are going to lessen the impact of oil-based propulsion/energy and hydrogen is going to be way way far down the road, no time soon, unlike electric cars, which are here are now and will only get better.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,720
2,706
Pōneke
As you start to de-carbonize things like cars and other ICE applications, you are going to lessen the impact of oil-based propulsion/energy and hydrogen is going to be way way far down the road, no time soon, unlike electric cars, which are here are now and will only get better.
You don’t seem to get, and I think this isn’t just you by any means, the scale of what is starting to happen. Understand that we need to not only absolutely stop adding CO2 to the atmosphere, but we need to draw down massive amounts of what is already there as well. The gravity of this hasn’t quite sunk in yet for a lot of people. Industry is changing, getting ready to change. Wide scale BEVs will not make all the other decarbonising that needs to happen any less urgent in any way, it will just be one thing that is ‘done’. New gasoline cars are already banned from 2025, 2030, 2035 in various countries and jurisdictions. Carbon taxes, prices for carbon, both exist and are spreading and these costs are increasing.

Also to be clear; when I talk about widespread H2 I’m talking probably 2030 to 2050 as broad adoption here, not ‘tomorrow’, but be assured there will be a shit load more Green H2 on the planet in even the next few years.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,701
3,162
Also to be clear; when I talk about widespread H2 I’m talking probably 2030 to 2050 as broad adoption here, not ‘tomorrow’, but be assured there will be a shit load more Green H2 on the planet in even the next few years.
Denmark is building "energy islands" and, althought they just say it as a side note, the location of the islands indicates that the long-term plan is a power to X station to refuel ships with hydrogen.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,122
10,679
AK
Also to be clear; when I talk about widespread H2 I’m talking probably 2030 to 2050 as broad adoption here, not ‘tomorrow’, but be assured there will be a shit load more Green H2 on the planet in even the next few years.
The energy density of battery technology by then is going to really limit H2 to a few industrial uses, like cargo ships, some/bigger airplanes, and some industrial equipment. I'm sure it'll be around and be used, but it won't be widespread and I doubt a giant infrastructure will be across the country, just like today with similar fuels. I can't go down to the gas station and buy bunker oil or Jet-A either. Battery density and quick-recharge tech are quickly making ICE obsolete for everything from leaf blowers to long haul tractor trailers. Yes, tractor trailers aren't there yet, but that's the example I'm using, 2030-2050, we will surely have the energy density and quick charge capability there, given how fast it's moving right now. H2 isn't the only way to "store" excess renewable energy either.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,122
10,679
AK
Well I mean... You did get a Dodge and Dodge is synonymous for crazy American Trumper. My buddy's company does industrial machinery which is deliverable in a truck and bought a fleet of new trucks 2 years ago. He said in buying 20 trucks they could have saved over $150k by buying Ram's vs. GMC's, gotten better maintenance costs, and better residual value. But the management didn't want people to correlate the company with Trumpers because the management and decision makers of their customers are primarily engineers and other "educated" individuals. They felt the added cost of the trucks was worth far more that reducing the company's fiscal value, reputation, and the potential loss of sales, so they ate the extra cost.

So yeah. Dodge/Ram. You did it to yourself.
'Murica

 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
55,983
22,022
Sleazattle
This cracks me up. I have worked in so many places that tries to copy Toyota's lean "just in time" philosophy but always manage to screw it up because all they care about is reducing cost and inventory where as Toyota is successful with it because they focus on properly scheduling their supply chains. So when there is a hiccup in the supply chains everyone else is fucked and Toyota is the last man standing. Corporate America excels at wasting billions to while focusing on individual metrics that mean nothing in the big picture.

 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,508
In hell. Welcome!
This cracks me up. I have worked in so many places that tries to copy Toyota's lean "just in time" philosophy but always manage to screw it up because all they care about is reducing cost and inventory where as Toyota is successful with it because they focus on properly scheduling their supply chains. So when there is a hiccup in the supply chains everyone else is fucked and Toyota is the last man standing. Corporate America excels at wasting billions to while focusing on individual metrics that mean nothing in the big picture.

Hahvahd business school, yo!
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
55,983
22,022
Sleazattle
Hahvahd business school, yo!
When I worked at GE there was one year at the time when all the inventory cost metrics were being measured someone "accidentally" shipped a few millions dollars of orders for the following quarter early to customers. To which they were refused and returned, but damn those charts looked good that quarter
 

chuffer

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2004
1,788
1,132
McMinnville, OR
...Corporate America excels at wasting billions to while focusing on individual metrics that mean nothing in the big picture...
I literally just had this discussion with my boss 5 minutes ago...and in reality it isnt just America any more. The Germans are as bad / worse these days.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,197
829
Lima, Peru, Peru
This cracks me up. I have worked in so many places that tries to copy Toyota's lean "just in time" philosophy but always manage to screw it up because all they care about is reducing cost and inventory where as Toyota is successful with it because they focus on properly scheduling their supply chains. So when there is a hiccup in the supply chains everyone else is fucked and Toyota is the last man standing. Corporate America excels at wasting billions to while focusing on individual metrics that mean nothing in the big picture.

Same thing here. Never seen a succesfull implementation of JIT outside of Toyota.
Seen many try and fail miserably.

I was actually poached from Toyota to implement "JIT-ish" at another automotive company in 2013.
Nobody understood it wasnt a recipe but a way of doing business, and culture eats strategy for breakfast.
I left after 11 months.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,197
829
Lima, Peru, Peru
I literally just had this discussion with my boss 5 minutes ago...and in reality it isnt just America any more. The Germans are as bad / worse these days.
My interpretetion of this is that some corporations have gotten so large and top heavy, with so little actual tangible "work" to do and so much overlap... that survival becomes the main objective of each department.
Thus... the era of "pointless metrics". It aint pointless if it creates the need for your job.

This hardly happens at Toyota, since avoidance to becoming "too large" is intrinsec by design.
The downside... is that you have a company slow to react/correct.
 
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stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
41,158
10,096
The day I went for a drive up some empty mountain roads some 200 miles from Lima on the good ol AMG.
It was a good day.

you would have thouroughly enjoyed my younger brothers first car....68 bmw 2002...previous owner used it to autocross....recaro driving seats...5 point harnesses....205/55/13....barely any ground clearance....scary fast....
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,720
2,706
Pōneke
Yeah it does look a tiny bit like a missing panel. What saves the grill is the ultra-wide Euro license plate. It’ll look a bit lame with a standard US or, say NZ one. Have to get one with extra BS at the side to make it work.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,825
7,068
borcester rhymes
I wonder if anybody will look back on these awful grills with affection or hate them in the future as much as everyone does today. I feel like the E60 bangle design aged remarkably well....not sure the flared nostrils will look good in 10 years.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,720
2,706
Pōneke
Humans can and will get used to nearly everything, always have; some BC Roman dude has a quote about ‘man does adapt to any circumstance’ or some shit like that, and except in extreme circumstances we pretty much always look back on history with highly rose tinted glasses. It’s probably a survival trait.

In the 80s I hated most 80s music; now, I ran so far away. There are millions of examples of similar.
 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
22,001
7,883
Colorado
How in the hell did this "style/stance" (ie. functional):
1622730033951.png


Become this:
1622730190545.png


Apparently it's being made illegal in North Carolina:
The language in this new bill, if it becomes law, would say passenger vehicles cannot be lifted more than three inches in the front and also lowered more than two inches in the back.