You should take a look at some of the demographics about mountain bikers that NBDA (Nat. Bicycle Dealers Association) published. Turns out we're in the same income bracket as golfers and skiiers. Very attractive in terms of disposable income. This doesn't mean everyone has $$$, but our average income ain't shabby.MMike said:
The demise of the Snoqualmie Pass lift served
- Thread starter FatalExposure
- Start date
Would that include XC people? I would suspect that there are more 50 year-old XC riders than DHers. And the DH/FR scene is nowhere near as "established" for lack of a better word, as the XC scene.juice said:
And as a frequent client of the Snoq lift service, I know who they were catering to. Dirtbags! (You know who you are)...
My point is that Snoq has to attract more than the 19-24 year-olds who need to scrounge or beg DHZ for a deal to keep their bikes going. (which was essnetially the demographic at the time).....
This is the same reason the Simon had such a hardtime with DHNW and his hospitality service at the Nationals. It was a great idea, but no-one who would actually want the service could afford the service. He was pretty bitter about people ("bro's"), wanting "hang out" in his expensive pit space, or crash on the floor of his expensive hotel rooms.
Anyhoo.....
"include XC"? Of course it would. And the aging beach cruiser crowd on the Burke-Gilman too.
All the more reason to cater as most ski ares do, to the "blue square" crowd. A little harder stuff and a little easier for the full family type day. May be worth looking at Cypress for a good example.
When/why would people go there versus Whistler? Is Cypress going to make any money?
With bull dozer access, I know even Snocrummy would be pretty cool to ride weeknights and non-travel weekends after a bunch of dirt work. For all levels of ability.
As noted, the "re-opening" has been tried a couple of times already and "Juice" has the contacts that spearheaded that effort and the reasons it was shot down. It's possible to find out if Northstar is making money. If it is, then, that may help the cause. Without a fresh look though, for the time being, it's a dead horse.
All the more reason to cater as most ski ares do, to the "blue square" crowd. A little harder stuff and a little easier for the full family type day. May be worth looking at Cypress for a good example.
When/why would people go there versus Whistler? Is Cypress going to make any money?
With bull dozer access, I know even Snocrummy would be pretty cool to ride weeknights and non-travel weekends after a bunch of dirt work. For all levels of ability.
As noted, the "re-opening" has been tried a couple of times already and "Juice" has the contacts that spearheaded that effort and the reasons it was shot down. It's possible to find out if Northstar is making money. If it is, then, that may help the cause. Without a fresh look though, for the time being, it's a dead horse.
http://www.kmcmag.com/pdf/kmc_summer05.pdfjuice said:
Kootenay Mountain Culture did a whole issue on the demographics of mountain biking in BC. The numbers are pretty amazing. Theyve tracked how much the average mountain bike tourist spends in a day, and so on. Worthwhile reading for anyone interested in the numbers that drive the industry.
So Your points are that Snoq failed becauseMMike said:
1)The riders were dirtbags.
2)The riders were aged 19-24 and got deals from the DHZ
3)Rich fifty year old XC riders didn't and do not ride DH.
4)People mooched off of Simon at the nationals.
Thanks for the vaulable input Mike!
and nobody finds it ironic that the state closest to whistler appears to be the only one not willing (for lack of a better word) to run summer lifts for bikes? I don't think resorts in other states would be as concerned with loosing potential daily (or weekly) business to the biggest and most successful lift-accessed bike park in the world. Sure, more people in Washington may ride at a local resort than say five years ago, but I'd be willing to bet they'd still make the trek to Mecca nearly as much as they do now.
btw, I read MMike and Borneo's posts as basically saying the exact same thing in different words....build a wide variety of terrain to attract a wider clientele
btw, I read MMike and Borneo's posts as basically saying the exact same thing in different words....build a wide variety of terrain to attract a wider clientele
I agree on all points. There's no question that Snoq did a half-baked job last time around.MMike said:
Look at Stevens pass in the winter. I swear they have 100,000 kids up there every weekend just for ski school - and none of them are old enough to drive. Just think what Snoq could do in the summer if they got all the local groms up there for lessons, clinincs, or just to go rip. We need the lifts running. We need a Huck Bus.
eh?Snacks said:
I think some people have inadertantly brought up some pretty effective selling points. Number 1 being the idea of marketing to kids and parents. I would rather have my kid break his collar bone doing something athletic than watch him turn into a couch potato playing XBOX (nothing against XBOX-DOOM3 rules!).
Also, a big point is variety. It falls right in line with a progression of trail systems that apparentally the park lacked last time. The whole GENEX...Bender go big or die trying...Xtreme thing may have sparked a growing interest in alternative biking sports, but it cannot sustain itself forever.
Most people, like me, are pretty content to be mediocre, and live to tell about it. However, as the late Alex Lowe said "The BEST climber is the climber who is having the MOST fun". Similarly, the BEST mountain biker is the one who is having the most fun at any one time. I rode most of the trails that were at Snoqualmie after they shut down. Like alot of people mentioned, without a high end machine, and more than a basic riding skill you were probably dabbing like mad or going over the bars. Or even more frustrating, walking down some of the trails. Who wants to pay to walk and crash? Not me.
By the nature of it's topography Snoqualmie Pass lacks vertical relief, however the entire ski area encompasses a low elevation ridge system which lends itself to long gradual traverses. A good network of systems which traversed the ridge line could provide a longer downhill with moderate obstacles and speed. A series of wide wooden bridge overpasses would allow for a system of trails which did not physically intersect, except for raised overhead platforms, where riders could observe people riding the trails below them. Sort of a Devils Gulch style approach to trail building in the area.
So for example, a rider could get off at Silver Fir and begin a gradual descending traverse out towards Summit West with switchbacks occuring near Thunderbird Chair. Now I know the Mountaineers maintain a land plot smack dab in the middle of the whole show which could be a problem, but I'm sure creative trail building could alleviate a lot of the complications. Or maybe just cutting that whole section out by switchbacking back to the south from the ski line known as Parachute, and bombing out to Summit Centrals quad chair. An alternate line of moderate descents would spiderweb through that system originating from other existing lift platforms further north.
Steeper more advanced lines could exist throughout the tree lines off Silver Fir and the double at Central. The "Goblin Forest" at Hyak would be a great place to create steep single track with freeride obstacles utilizing the already existing stump farms tucked in the 2nd growth.
Beginner lines could encompass the wide variety of service roads/Xcountry ski lines ranging from Summit East (Hyak) to Summit West.
A Xcountry system already exists from Hyak, and even from Silver Fir which utilizing already existing Xcountry ski trails would give the Xcountry rider a workout going out and around Mt Catherine to Windy Pass, back down to the Yurt near Silver Lake and back around to Hyak (Summit East).
Alpental of course doesn't really lend itself to many trail options because the upper chair feeds into a steep talus basin. The lower chair is funneled into a narrow series of chutes. Perhaps a Gargamel style single track could someday feed the masses appetites over there, but it's hard for me to imagine sending Upper International on a bike.
Anyway, the area has huge potential, not as a destination resort, but as a let's get out of town for the day and enjoy gravity, not spend a ton of money or time activity destination.
A lot of business ideas fail the first time around, but with a little experience and a new outlook they come around. This one needs to be reborn. There seems to be quite a few posting here who have institutional knowledge of Snoqualmie and good connections. Whoever you are.
Also, a big point is variety. It falls right in line with a progression of trail systems that apparentally the park lacked last time. The whole GENEX...Bender go big or die trying...Xtreme thing may have sparked a growing interest in alternative biking sports, but it cannot sustain itself forever.
Most people, like me, are pretty content to be mediocre, and live to tell about it. However, as the late Alex Lowe said "The BEST climber is the climber who is having the MOST fun". Similarly, the BEST mountain biker is the one who is having the most fun at any one time. I rode most of the trails that were at Snoqualmie after they shut down. Like alot of people mentioned, without a high end machine, and more than a basic riding skill you were probably dabbing like mad or going over the bars. Or even more frustrating, walking down some of the trails. Who wants to pay to walk and crash? Not me.
By the nature of it's topography Snoqualmie Pass lacks vertical relief, however the entire ski area encompasses a low elevation ridge system which lends itself to long gradual traverses. A good network of systems which traversed the ridge line could provide a longer downhill with moderate obstacles and speed. A series of wide wooden bridge overpasses would allow for a system of trails which did not physically intersect, except for raised overhead platforms, where riders could observe people riding the trails below them. Sort of a Devils Gulch style approach to trail building in the area.
So for example, a rider could get off at Silver Fir and begin a gradual descending traverse out towards Summit West with switchbacks occuring near Thunderbird Chair. Now I know the Mountaineers maintain a land plot smack dab in the middle of the whole show which could be a problem, but I'm sure creative trail building could alleviate a lot of the complications. Or maybe just cutting that whole section out by switchbacking back to the south from the ski line known as Parachute, and bombing out to Summit Centrals quad chair. An alternate line of moderate descents would spiderweb through that system originating from other existing lift platforms further north.
Steeper more advanced lines could exist throughout the tree lines off Silver Fir and the double at Central. The "Goblin Forest" at Hyak would be a great place to create steep single track with freeride obstacles utilizing the already existing stump farms tucked in the 2nd growth.
Beginner lines could encompass the wide variety of service roads/Xcountry ski lines ranging from Summit East (Hyak) to Summit West.
A Xcountry system already exists from Hyak, and even from Silver Fir which utilizing already existing Xcountry ski trails would give the Xcountry rider a workout going out and around Mt Catherine to Windy Pass, back down to the Yurt near Silver Lake and back around to Hyak (Summit East).
Alpental of course doesn't really lend itself to many trail options because the upper chair feeds into a steep talus basin. The lower chair is funneled into a narrow series of chutes. Perhaps a Gargamel style single track could someday feed the masses appetites over there, but it's hard for me to imagine sending Upper International on a bike.
Anyway, the area has huge potential, not as a destination resort, but as a let's get out of town for the day and enjoy gravity, not spend a ton of money or time activity destination.
A lot of business ideas fail the first time around, but with a little experience and a new outlook they come around. This one needs to be reborn. There seems to be quite a few posting here who have institutional knowledge of Snoqualmie and good connections. Whoever you are.
Any time!Tootrikky said:
Yep/... no-one doubts that the potential is there. Most of what you suggested has been suggested before by various people. The riding there could actually be better than the skiing.... it's just been impossible so far to get the "shirts" to acknowledge any of this.FatalExposure said:
Yeah, but I have investors with $$$ willing to get the thing back up and running. We're just doing some homework at the moment.
well then i wish you god speed!FatalExposure said:
Ever been to Brundage?They have some great trails there, and what's cool is that as much fun as it is to bomb the Elk trail at high speed, it's also a suitable trail for mom& pop with the trail-a-bike. They are marketing very well across the board, from families, to xc riders who don't want to climb, to the DH riders looking for excitement on the old world cup course.
gg
Do they attract anyone but locals in the winter? It's snoqualmie, lets be honest here. It aint the best location for anything (as far as terrain goes). There are a lot of areas that just cater to locals and the occassional passerby. That's fine, as long as the locals help them make money, what difference does it make who it is?thesacrifice said:
Problem with places like Crystal, long drive to no where. There isn't anything down there but the mountain. Almost no where to stay unless you are at the main lodge or drive way the heck back down the mtn.
A few events on the mountain jammed into an opening year would put Snoq back on the map and in the media. If trails were built smart, plans put in place and the man power to do it correctly it wouldn't be hard to easily and inexpensively market Snoq.
Have a promoter locally look into trying to get a National event or something of that scale back to the hill. That in itself creates free marketing. Magazines, newspapers, websites, etc nation wide will advertise the locations of a national event and at no cost to the promoter. If plans were put in place at that time to discuss briefly during press-releases that there will be x miles of trails, x things to do, x places to stay, etc you'd have a good marketing campaign taken care of. With a little more effort, decent website, posters/fliers in bike shops/magazines (Few thousand would get you several ads) don't have to be huge and fancy, can't compete with whistler, just want to stir up the questions about the mountain.
Problem was snoq never did that, they advertised one or 2 years with fliers in shops (sometimes) and that was it. Word of mouth was all I ever got from that hill.
After going up at one point that year to ride, I actually attended some youth mtb camp. Was actually pretty fun for someone who hadn't done much "dh" or any lift type riding. Had guys and girls of all ages taking the camp. Few days of riding, season pass, dinner, lodging, etc
It's crap like that they need to do to bring in the "new" folks not just the regulars.
BUT on that note now as I have managed to work my way into the roll of an event promoter I can say one thing, this stuff isn't cheap. Snoq is a much larger operation then hosting the Broken Spoke and seeing our expenses (oh god!
) time, energy, etc and the numerous headaches, challenges, etc that come with it. I can see why Booth Creek doesn't really want to consider it to seriously. Only way I see this as working, is someone drafting up plans, looking into the legal issues, costs, etc. Petition/study the demographics that would be using the park, talk with Booth Creek to see what their hold-ups are and concerns and find ways to address them all. Basically do the grunt work for them. Might even need to find sponsors/vendors to jump on board to fund some of the upfront costs of getting it all up and running for a first year trial period. If Booth Creek has to pay for it and organize all of it, chances are they won't lift a finger.
Snoqualmie attracts almost primarily Seattle skiers/boarders. But, the population of skiers to DH/FR/XC riders is undeniably unproportionatemplutodh1 said:
Susie Tjossem, Vice President Guest Experience & Product Development stjossem@boothcreek.com
I have tried writing to their customer service email before, never got a response, or even a basic acknowledgement.
I will be writing this person to tell her her how much I have spent going to Whistler, Sunpeaks, Silver Mountain, etc and making a committment to buy 2 season tickets and eat lunch there every time I go.....
I will be writing this person to tell her her how much I have spent going to Whistler, Sunpeaks, Silver Mountain, etc and making a committment to buy 2 season tickets and eat lunch there every time I go.....
Most the things Pluto mentions are things we are starting to work on or compile. I'd like to have a comprehensive package together, along with the investor money, all lined up BEFORE approaching Booth Creek directly.
What people can begin to do as individuals is start getting a feel for where their rider friends, sponsors, et al, stand on this. Drum up some interest. If the demographic looks weak then it's a waste of time and money to go forward, but if it looks strong then it should go forward.
Another good thing would be for people with intimate knowledge of the former operation to compile a list of suggestions for improvements, and a baseline of the problems which existed previously. We can avoid making the same mistakes. Some are listed here, but I know there were other problems to tackle as well.
Also, a list of key people to work with to get this off the ground. I see that some advocacy groups have thrown in a few cents here and there already, so that's always a good place to start. Examples would be attorneys wiling to put in a few hours of probono to look it over, an engineer or two who have access to certain types of construction equipment and knowledge, some trail builder types, etc.
Feel free to PM me.
What people can begin to do as individuals is start getting a feel for where their rider friends, sponsors, et al, stand on this. Drum up some interest. If the demographic looks weak then it's a waste of time and money to go forward, but if it looks strong then it should go forward.
Another good thing would be for people with intimate knowledge of the former operation to compile a list of suggestions for improvements, and a baseline of the problems which existed previously. We can avoid making the same mistakes. Some are listed here, but I know there were other problems to tackle as well.
Also, a list of key people to work with to get this off the ground. I see that some advocacy groups have thrown in a few cents here and there already, so that's always a good place to start. Examples would be attorneys wiling to put in a few hours of probono to look it over, an engineer or two who have access to certain types of construction equipment and knowledge, some trail builder types, etc.
Feel free to PM me.
What about taking the approach Ski Bowl does at Mt Hood? They cater to more than just mountain bikers. They have the alpine slide, a bungee jump, a rock climbing wall, etc, that caters to families as well as mountain bikers. With their location on I-90 Snoqualmie would be visible to a lot of potential customers and with other activities they could spread the financial risk out and not be dependent on any one type of activity. I seriously doubt that if Ski Bowl had to rely solely on bikers to stay open during the summer that it wouldn't happen. That alpine slide of theirs is the $$$ maker and it is busy every time I have been down there (on a sunny day).
More info from the inside...
"Trevor Kostanich is the Environmental/Planning guy. He works with the Forest Service regarding the permits and all the other bureaucratic agencies. The word I had regarding mountain biking was yes, they lost money, and the Forest Service was VERY unhappy about all the renegade trails the downhillers made. On top of that, the ski area was not allowed to make any new trails because their Master Plan was not approved. The Forest Service basically does not want any more trails made up here for mountain biking. Remember this is the North Bend ranger district, which basically has no bike trails in their district. Except for the John Wayne Trail and now the Middle Fork.
I think I remember Trevor saying that they wanted the BBTC to maintain all their trails for them, or something like that, because they werent going to hire a trail crew. I personally have a problem with volunteer labor going to help a for-profit corporation."
Anybody who has dealt with the ranger district knows this isn't just a Booth Creek issue... :mumble:
"Trevor Kostanich is the Environmental/Planning guy. He works with the Forest Service regarding the permits and all the other bureaucratic agencies. The word I had regarding mountain biking was yes, they lost money, and the Forest Service was VERY unhappy about all the renegade trails the downhillers made. On top of that, the ski area was not allowed to make any new trails because their Master Plan was not approved. The Forest Service basically does not want any more trails made up here for mountain biking. Remember this is the North Bend ranger district, which basically has no bike trails in their district. Except for the John Wayne Trail and now the Middle Fork.
I think I remember Trevor saying that they wanted the BBTC to maintain all their trails for them, or something like that, because they werent going to hire a trail crew. I personally have a problem with volunteer labor going to help a for-profit corporation."
Anybody who has dealt with the ranger district knows this isn't just a Booth Creek issue... :mumble:
Haha....renegade trails that the DH crew made...what about all the ATV's in the area? What about all the illegal shooting?
Whatever.....beating a dead horse comes to mind when the subject of getting the Pass to open to bikes.
Whatever.....beating a dead horse comes to mind when the subject of getting the Pass to open to bikes.
Best post.... Ever.Snacks said:
no, the best post ever would be brock posting up his dead horse CADDE rendering 
If i was on my work computer, i would have posted that. Probably the best cadde ever.SR said:no, the best post ever would be brock posting up his dead horse CADDE rendering
"is it dead"......." no, i think we should beat it some more"
I really wish someone would remind these people that the downhiller was building the trails ON THEIR PAYROLL and with their FULL KNOWLEDGE AND APPROVAL!!!! I have the pay stubs to prove it.Borneo said:
Not one trail on the lift serviced area was unknown to them. Yes the first two years it was purely voluntary, but I asked permission and was granted it by the people working there including Guy whats-his-name.
Why does it have to be such a buarecratic mess!!! Why can't they just say "if you built over here it would be fine, but stay away from there. You will have to shut this trail down because of (whatever) concerns but we will allow that trail as it doesn't encroach on anything"?????
F**K ME RUNNING!!!
Guy Lawrence
Really seems like a classic case of the left hand didn't know what the right was doing up there...
Another rumour is that the Cyclepath guys (Aaron?) we're f'n with everything and not good to work with. But, I don't know what their involvement was. Just that they still remember and it wasn't good...
(Third hand dead horse information...)
I'd love to see something up there that was worth it. I rode it once at the beginning and never went back and told everyone that asked back then that it wasn't worth it. (Hey, we were all on full rigids back then.)
Really seems like a classic case of the left hand didn't know what the right was doing up there...
Another rumour is that the Cyclepath guys (Aaron?) we're f'n with everything and not good to work with. But, I don't know what their involvement was. Just that they still remember and it wasn't good...
(Third hand dead horse information...)
I'd love to see something up there that was worth it. I rode it once at the beginning and never went back and told everyone that asked back then that it wasn't worth it. (Hey, we were all on full rigids back then.)
I just want to ride some stuff....bleh....I think I'll give up every single item I spend money on (except for bikes) and save all my vacation.
Then I'll spend every single weekend riding at Whistler or on the race circuit....
And if someone wants a really big, really hardworking, young whippersnapper to help build trails or whoop some Washington bureaucratic a$$...you know where to find me.... :mumble:
I'm going to go work somemore overtime for those new parts I want for next season....and a new helmet to prevent somemore serious concussions....
Huh?!?!??
PM me if you're going to build anything ya need a hand with...
Peace out,
G
Then I'll spend every single weekend riding at Whistler or on the race circuit....
And if someone wants a really big, really hardworking, young whippersnapper to help build trails or whoop some Washington bureaucratic a$$...you know where to find me.... :mumble:
I'm going to go work somemore overtime for those new parts I want for next season....and a new helmet to prevent somemore serious concussions....
Huh?!?!??
PM me if you're going to build anything ya need a hand with...
Peace out,
G
If think I prefer the phrase "F**k me gently with a chainsaw". (from the movie Heathers) Just gives it that little extra "umph" .trailhacker said:
i had a seasons pass.MMike said:
80 is dirt cheap
pays for its self in 4 times
uh...yeah, that was the point. too cheapFast&Smooth said:
Keep in mind we are losing Vicktor Falls and Lake Sawyer to the bulldozer, all those folks who ride there will need to go somewhere. Somewhere I read that the ski business is somewhat flat. Is this true? If may be a good idea for them to put in a campground. Is DH and FR realy growing like it seems to be? Like I said before, if there's a place to ride close by I think more folks would think it worthwhile to buy a big bike.
Why would you stay there it's only a two hour drive from Seattle? Unless you live Everett north i don't see Crystal being excessively far, especially to Tacomers.mplutodh1 said:
Thats why I like it down south, I'll always have trails close by. They wont build anythign In cap forest, although they do randomly clearcut trails, but they come back fast.Dave_Schuldt said:
Really i wont miss victor, but Lk sawyer will be missed when it finally coems tiem to develop that area....
Borneo, that was the information I was looking for. If NBRD has something to do with it, and that is their stance, then I don't want anything to do with it. The bureaucracy flows uphill with that crew, and I don't want to waste that much time. Moving on then to Crystal Mountain. What was the score with them?
Lake Sawyer will last forever, we'll just punch out windows and build skinnies thru living rooms.oly said:
So aren't the owners of The Pass a big company that spreads $$$ all over DC? If so they should be able to do whatever no mater what the FS says.
WHAAATTT!! Lake Sawyer is going down? Damn, that came to be one of my must rides when I returned to town. Now I have to make a special trip. When is it scheduled for closing, or is it like Victor which has been closing for years?Dave_Schuldt said:
Step back into the AC man, your starting to freak out....Vno said:
i think he was just meaning more that the areas will slowly be lost to development. Victor now is nothing like it was 5 years ago due to home development.....
Yeah, most of what we call Sawyer is on private land, so someday there could be a grocery store or a bunch of homes there. They're already starting to encroach on a trail or two, but it'll be a slow process (hopefully). Any time you're riding on private land, its a temporary arrangement.
BBTC is working with Friends of Rock Creek Valley and King County on proposals for permanent riding areas on public lands in that area, so hopefully everything that is lost will be replaced by permanent trails.
BBTC is working with Friends of Rock Creek Valley and King County on proposals for permanent riding areas on public lands in that area, so hopefully everything that is lost will be replaced by permanent trails.