[maxyedor]

Let's not start giving these guys a pass. Graves didn't even get the B-sample tested, which may be telling, as is their uniform response to the Ryno Power connection.

I knew this would be for stimulants; those are long days in the saddle.

Bottom line: I'm not sure how they escape sanction.

Edit: Great comments on this post. People taking sides! https://www.instagram.com/p/BqouUxOH_ri/

I don't think anybody is giving them a pass, well, except for me because I'm the asshole who thinks cycling is more interesting when it's dirty.


Their lawyer went with "mums the word" when it came to questions about Ryno Power, and both say they;re getting things tested to find the source. I think we can all assume that these facts and the fact that it was a ppb reading mean they're both thinking it was a tainted RP supplement. I think Graves knows he's guilty and knows exactly why, even if he can't say it publicly. I assume EWS follows WADA guidelines that say an athlete is responsible for everything they put in their body, intentional or not, so if it was a tainted supplement, they're still considered just as guilty as somebody caught with a syringe in their arm. The only time it matters is when they hand down the punishments, they may show leniency if they can prove the supplement was tainted and it wasn't intentional, being cooperative an owning your guilt will also help when it comes to handing out sanctions.

It makes sense for Graves to decline a B sample test and get right to his punishment, as I imagine he won't be competing next year anyway. Lets say they give him the full 2 year ban, he'll likely be on the bench for the majority of it anyway, and if they give him a lighter ban, he'll most certainly be on the bench for the duration while recovering from Chemo.

 

[aaronjb]

Very thoughtful response, thanks. Half the fun of following road cycling is the drama around cheating and doping. I just wish that it was contained to the road.

What you said about the route Graves chose following the A sample AAF is logical. He's got bigger fish to fry right now.

 

[wiscodh]

do any of the other tested athletes work with RP? (i honestly don't know, that's why i'm asking)..

my guess is they get special blends from RP, thats not off the shelf. Did RP make them a "special" blend at the athletes request or is it something that RP slipped in there. Im guessing either situation is why they have a lawyer and are very tight lipped in there comments on PB.

 

[jackalope]

This is likely an overly simplistic and/or naive question, but is it possible to have have these "supplements" tested prior to the athlete taking them? That would seem to eliminate the possibility of "tainted" products .

On the subject of "supplements", I always thought of them more of a muscle building type thing, not that dissimilar to the creatine i took 1 million years ago in high school so I could get swoll - except with extra testorone flavors. But these products apparently had "asthma medications" in them, and it seems like a reach to claim they were accidently tainted.

Regardless, it sucks IMO, especially if it's proven to be fairly widespread and very intentional.

 

[Inclag]

Gotta say, that would be a pretty brilliant business model. Predicate your entire business on actively sponsoring and marketing 2 wheeled cycling professionals, and make tainted product......

I'm not going to sit on top of the mountain and cast stones, but it's almost as if I heard this story countless times before.....

 

[maxyedor]

This is likely an overly simplistic and/or naive question, but is it possible to have have these "supplements" tested prior to the athlete taking them? That would seem to eliminate the possibility of "tainted" products .

On the subject of "supplements", I always thought of them more of a muscle building type thing, not that dissimilar to the creatine i took 1 million years ago in high school so I could get swoll - except with extra testorone flavors. But these products apparently had "asthma medications" in them, and it seems like a reach to claim they were accidently tainted.

Regardless, it sucks IMO, especially if it's proven to be fairly widespread and very intentional.

Yes, many supplement manufacturers do get them tested batch by batch prior to sale to ensure that they're never the guilty party when an athlete gets popped. These supplement suppliers also generally use higher end facilities that commit to both never manufacture anything containing a banned substance, and rigorously clean their equipment between batches. WADA used to have a website giving a detailed list of every supplement batch number they've tested, can't find the link right now. These known clean supplements cost a lot more though

https://www.amazon.com/Ryno-Power-Premium-Protein-Vanilla/dp/B00OC20LD8/ref=sr_1_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1543256079&sr=8-2&keywords=ryno+power

vs

https://www.onnit.com/whey-protein/

As far as other crap besides testosterone found in supplements, all the shit on the WADA banned substance list is performance enhancing, so all of it can be found in certain supplements (the stuff body builders and weekend warriors take) and thus can be found in the factory that makes supplements. Cross contamination is a real issue in many of these facilities. Ryno Power makes pills for things like hydration and endurance, those may come out of the same factory as the sketchy big dick pills you can get at 7-eleven. Those boner pills most definitely contain load of shit from the WADA list.

 

[jonKranked]

I'm not quite saying that. If they tested positive, they deserve the sanctions. Tainted/unknown supplement defense isn't a defense (and it's also not what they're leading with).

They should have just done what the roadies do and get some asthma drugs and a TUE.

I'm also surprised why they were advised by counsel to not test the B sample. That's odd.

Edit: Barf. Now it's a "witch hunt" to catch a guy with cancer. Sure, whatever. I guess if people can still defend Lance Armstrong, they can defend anyone.

"supplements" typically aren't evaluated by any regulatory body (FDA, USP, EMA, etc) the same way drugs considered pharmaceuticals (ie anything with an API - active product ingredient) are - for things like safety, efficacy, etc. I'm not sure supplements are eligible for TUE's.

if they can prove the product was tainted / they weren't aware it was in it, it can get the sentence / sanctions reduced. there is precedent for this.

my guess is they get special blends from RP, thats not off the shelf. Did RP make them a "special" blend at the athletes request or is it something that RP slipped in there. Im guessing either situation is why they have a lawyer and are very tight lipped in there comments on PB.

i'm not sure about this. I don't think enduro (or even mtb in general) is a large enough market segment for them to make special blends for those athletes. looking over the RP website and reading between the lines, it doesn't sound like they own their own manufacturing / processing facilities, so contamination (adulteration) resulting from poor line clearance (ie cleaning in between running different batches of product) is a very realistic possibility (contract companies that do this kind of work / processing often have many different customers, so its absolutely a possibility that a prior run was making something that contained a banned WADA substance). especially given the results were taken in PPB (parts per billion)*

RP touts themselves as selling clean product that will pass WADA. claiming that if it were not actually the case is a business risk (although not necessarily as dire as if they were classified as an actual pharma company).

This is likely an overly simplistic and/or naive question, but is it possible to have have these "supplements" tested prior to the athlete taking them? That would seem to eliminate the possibility of "tainted" products .

On the subject of "supplements", I always thought of them more of a muscle building type thing, not that dissimilar to the creatine i took 1 million years ago in high school so I could get swoll - except with extra testorone flavors. But these products apparently had "asthma medications" in them, and it seems like a reach to claim they were accidently tainted.

Regardless, it sucks IMO, especially if it's proven to be fairly widespread and very intentional.

testing costs money. despite how popular enduro might seem, i don't think there's enough money in there for up front testing.

supplements claim a lot of things, but none of those claims are evaluated for accuracy (see points above about supplements vs pharmaceuticals).

re: tainted: that's not speculation. i already posted a link that one of the detected drugs had already been discovered in over a dozen other tainted supplements.



*on the subject of the test results themselves and being PPB (point of reference here on PPB, one part per billion is roughly equivalent to one microgram per a cubic meter of a given material, so a very very very small amount). for unregulated supplements, that's pretty much where you'd expect to find compound levels resulting from cross contamination between production runs with poor line clearance. (i'm saying this from experience working in pharmaceuticals).

it's also coincidentally about the detection threshold that most doping tests are at (depending on the test & substance, common ranges are 10-100 ppb). whether or not RP (or whatever supplement maker) tests to i don't know. specifically regarding RP they claim their products will pass WADA tests, if this is true i'd expect them to be testing to the same thresholds.

so this really makes only two scenarios likely:

1) it really was tainted supplement product

2) they're on a systemic doping program much like what is done in road cycling, ie utilizing a lot of physio data, biometrics, metabolic rates, etc, they figure out how much they can take without being detected (ie having a failing test result if tested). this is the kind of program that Armstrong, etc utilized.

i think option 2 is the less likely here, because there's just not enough money in enduro (even for the top guys) to fund that kind of systemic doping program.

 

[jackalope]

those may come out of the same factory as the sketchy big dick pills you can get at 7-eleven. Those boner pills most definitely contain load of shit from the WADA list.

 

[maxyedor]

Ya Rly (Sorry, can't find the right gif)

https://deadspin.com/jon-jones-i-took-off-brand-cialis-because-i-have-a-hug-1789618251

Alternate explanation, Rude and Graves are taking gas station dick pills, screw the dirty supplement theory, we're going with this one.

 

[jonKranked]

Ya Rly (Sorry, can't find the right gif)

https://deadspin.com/jon-jones-i-took-off-brand-cialis-because-i-have-a-hug-1789618251

Alternate explanation, Rude and Graves are taking gas station dick pills, screw the dirty supplement theory, we're going with this one.

Also, truck stop pep pills (or alertness pills) often contain amphetamines

 

[jackalope]

Ya Rly (Sorry, can't find the right gif)

https://deadspin.com/jon-jones-i-took-off-brand-cialis-because-i-have-a-hug-1789618251

Alternate explanation, Rude and Graves are taking gas station dick pills, screw the dirty supplement theory, we're going with this one.

There's 4 gas stations on my way home. If it ever stops raining here, I'm going to crush @SuboptimusPrime and @roflbox with my swoll red blood cells...actually, that's a pretty low bar, but it will be cathartic regardless. My wife is in trouble too, but for a very different reason. Hooray for sketchy gas station pharmacies!

 

[Happymtb.fr]

one part per billion is roughly equivalent to one microgram per a cubic meter of a given material

I hope you don't work with any process related stuff in the pharmaceutical since part per billion is not the weight of something for a given volume... ppb is without dimension. 1 ppb = 0,000 000 1 %
No offence meant, it s just science ok

depending on the test & substance, common ranges are 10-100 ppb

Richie and the guys at PB obviously don't do much science. Richie says "There were super low amounts of whatever substances were in the test; it was parts per billion" Well ppb describes very small amounts so that even a low-ish amount might still be within the right range for positive doping test

 

[FarkinRyan]

Having read through both of the individual rider interviews on pinkbike I personally get the sense from a couple of Jared's answers that he either knows, or has a pretty good idea of how this stuff got in his system. In particular this quote;

"The big thing for me is that some of the drinks I've had, like a pre-workout type of drink, they're all things that I've had in the past and were never on the banned list. And I've always tested clean in every test I've ever had, so I just never thought to update myself with any information if anything was added to the banned list because every test I've ever had was clean."

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

Re: ppb. Gotta be using some type of HPLC mass spec to detect that stuff at that level and that is frequently pretty expensive--ie too much for an athlete to pre-test everything they take. Also, just because the units are ppb doesn't mean you didn't have 1,000,000 ppb in your system, which is a lot of whatever it is.

As someone that knows about science and shit, I find the lab portion of all this interesting though because detecting a specific substance using (presumably) HPLC MS of some variety requires a fair bit of work to optimize the conditions and validate the procedure for detection of EACH molecule you're looking for. It's certainly technically possible but would require considerable resources and a good lab, technicians, etc to do it well. Just curious what the budget of WADA and similar are and how bad ass or amateur their shop is. I've worked in start up biotech for years and can tell you that there is a huge variety of technical capabilities among even "legitimate" labs out there. I have zero doubt that there is lots of doping out there but would be interesting if either lots was going undetected or much worse, there were false positives due to laboratory errors....

All that said, I didn't find the rebuttals of either Rude or Graves particularly compelling in the interviews (as others have noted). At best, they knew they were getting some of that stuff but maybe not that it was on the no-no list... Bummer but not surprising.

 

[fwp]

Mike Levy and Pinkbike with his clickbait "exclusive" story about a failed drug test for a guy that is literally fighting for his life. Really? The guy is a fucking Legend and he's gonna run this out now, with minimal facts. Even if they knew 100% he was doping like Lance, "breaking the exclusive story" Now? Thats Fucked up

 

[SkullCrack]

Having read through both of the individual rider interviews on pinkbike I personally get the sense from a couple of Jared's answers that he either knows, or has a pretty good idea of how this stuff got in his system. In particular this quote;

"The big thing for me is that some of the drinks I've had, like a pre-workout type of drink, they're all things that I've had in the past and were never on the banned list. And I've always tested clean in every test I've ever had, so I just never thought to update myself with any information if anything was added to the banned list because every test I've ever had was clean."

From the thread on Vital:

Picture originally from EWS Corral, Chile pit-bits 2016

 

[jonKranked]

I hope you don't work with any process related stuff in the pharmaceutical since part per billion is not the weight of something for a given volume... ppb is without dimension. 1 ppb = 0,000 000 1 %
No offence meant, it s just science ok

That was only intended as a rough estimation to give an idea of scale. Without knowing things like density, moisture content, temperature, etc you can't determine concentration.

 

[jonKranked]

Re: ppb. Gotta be using some type of HPLC mass spec to detect that stuff at that level and that is frequently pretty expensive--ie too much for an athlete to pre-test everything they take. Also, just because the units are ppb doesn't mean you didn't have 1,000,000 ppb in your system, which is a lot of whatever it is.

As someone that knows about science and shit, I find the lab portion of all this interesting though because detecting a specific substance using (presumably) HPLC MS of some variety requires a fair bit of work to optimize the conditions and validate the procedure for detection of EACH molecule you're looking for. It's certainly technically possible but would require considerable resources and a good lab, technicians, etc to do it well. Just curious what the budget of WADA and similar are and how bad ass or amateur their shop is. I've worked in start up biotech for years and can tell you that there is a huge variety of technical capabilities among even "legitimate" labs out there. I have zero doubt that there is lots of doping out there but would be interesting if either lots was going undetected or much worse, there were false positives due to laboratory errors....

All that said, I didn't find the rebuttals of either Rude or Graves particularly compelling in the interviews (as others have noted). At best, they knew they were getting some of that stuff but maybe not that it was on the no-no list... Bummer but not surprising.

Yea, this kind of testing ain't your run of the mill whiz quiz.

 

[jonKranked]

Well ppb describes very small amounts so that even a low-ish amount might still be within the right range for positive doping test

See my comments re: detection threshold

 

[roflbox]

From the thread on Vital:

View attachment 131647
Picture originally from EWS Corral, Chile pit-bits 2016

View attachment 131648

Higenamine was officially banned by WADA in October 2016, Chile was in March 2016

 

[FarkinRyan]

@SkullCrack and had he been tested at the race in Chile when the photo was taken, he would have pissed clean as Higenamine hadn't been added to the banned list at that time. Looks like a potential failure to keep on top of contents of that list could well be the answer here.

 

[FlipFantasia]

Mike Levy and Pinkbike with his clickbait "exclusive" story about a failed drug test for a guy that is literally fighting for his life. Really? The guy is a fucking Legend and he's gonna run this out now, with minimal facts. Even if they knew 100% he was doping like Lance, "breaking the exclusive story" Now? Thats Fucked up

and they've been sitting on it for over a month, they certainly didn't rush to publish it or throw anyone under the bus unbeknownst. Hell, they even have full comment from both athletes. and besides, fail a doping test and you don't get a pass because of current situ imo.

 

[SkullCrack]

Higenamine was officially banned by WADA in October 2016, Chile was in March 2016

@SkullCrack and had he been tested at the race in Chile when the photo was taken, he would have pissed clean as Higenamine hadn't been added to the banned list at that time. Looks like a potential failure to keep on top of contents of that list could well be the answer here.

That was my point, and why I quoted your original post @FarkinRyan, where you had the quote from Jared saying:

"The big thing for me is that some of the drinks I've had, like a pre-workout type of drink, they're all things that I've had in the past and were never on the banned list. And I've always tested clean in every test I've ever had, so I just never thought to update myself with any information if anything was added to the banned list because every test I've ever had was clean."

 

[jonKranked]

From the thread on Vital:

View attachment 131647
Picture originally from EWS Corral, Chile pit-bits 2016

View attachment 131648

Which one of those is the ball cream?

 

[FarkinRyan]

I was agreeing with your point @SkullCrack . It seems like a strangely laissez-faire attitude to have if it is simply down to taking the one supplement shown in that photo after it had been banned. I can understand not feeling the need to check your selenium or magnesium pills against the WADA list every year but your innovative stimulant based fat burning physique enhancement system? I think you'd be a little more cautious.

 

[toodles]

Morons for not staying up to date with the banned list and double checking all their shit, but I can see how it would happen. Hell even Maria Sharapova got done for some PED that had literally only been banned for a month.

Personally I think it sucks that these athletes are taking all this rubbish whether its banned or not.

 

[jonKranked]

If there's one thing we can all agree on here, is that it's nice to finally have something to argue about again.

 

[dan-o]

Its only a matter of time until the Trust Effect is banned too.

 

[FarkinRyan]

Which one of those is the ball cream?

I'd say they're probably all ball-creams. At this level, if it can't be applied directly to your scrotum it's likely not worth your time.

 

[aaronjb]

Morons for not staying up to date with the banned list and double checking all their shit, but I can see how it would happen. Hell even Maria Sharapova got done for some PED that had literally only been banned for a month.

Personally I think it sucks that these athletes are taking all this rubbish whether its banned or not.

Just to clarify, Sharapova deserved to be caught out. She was for years abusing a medication intended for people with chronic heart conditions. That was some genuine fuckery.

 

[jonKranked]

I'd say they're probably all ball-creams. At this level, if it can't be applied directly to your scrotum it's likely not worth your time.

Only 50% effective for Lance

 

[FarkinRyan]

Only 50% effective for Lance

I don't know man, results in his case suggest it may in fact be 200% effective in that instance.

 

[jonKranked]

I don't know man, results in his case suggest it may in fact be 200% effective in that instance.

Maybe if he was injecting EPO into his sack, sure. That stuff isn't available as a cream.

 

[aaronjb]

To be a human for a second, I hope they're both able to resume their careers eventually. Graves especially given his health challenges.

 

[Bike078]

Read a comment on pinkbike saying that one of the two substances could have 10 times the detected amount just 8 hours prior (that would be during the race).

Of course Waki is defending the doping saying everyone is doing it and the system is corrupt, etc.

 

[roflbox]

With the EWS having ebike stages next year, that increases the chances of there being a yeti ebike

Which when that is announced, will be a glorious day

 

[slimshady]

Of course Waki is defending the doping saying everyone is doing it and the system is corrupt, etc.

The guy loves attention. Leave him alone and he'll fade and die.

 

[toodles]

Just to clarify, Sharapova deserved to be caught out. She was for years abusing a medication intended for people with chronic heart conditions. That was some genuine fuckery.

Technically, she broke the rules for about 3 weeks. Whether thats against the spirit of competition is another matter entirely. They're all doing some dodgy shit. Half the Tour seems to have become asthmatic lately, or have a note from their doctor allowing them asthma medication during competition.

Read a comment on pinkbike saying that one of the two substances could have 10 times the detected amount just 8 hours prior (that would be during the race).

Of course Waki is defending the doping saying everyone is doing it and the system is corrupt, etc.

PB comments are a gong-show. Waki is half-troll, half-Napoleon complex and going full guns at it. The worst thing PB ever did was give him some press and any creedence on their comment boards.

The other PB users have some valid points about the chemistry involved, but its interesting to see (from my point of view at least) how many people justify this shit to themselves. A lot of "amateur" and non-elite level guys talking about how many supplements and junk they're on, then claiming that their ignorance to the contents makes that fine. I bet everyone at the pointy end of the field is examining their supplement ingredient list very carefully right now, which may actually have been the whole point of this exercise.

 

[Bike078]

The guy loves attention. Leave him alone and he'll fade and die.

True. He does say interesting things sometimes. Sometimes.

 

[Bike078]

Technically, she broke the rules for about 3 weeks. Whether thats against the spirit of competition is another matter entirely. They're all doing some dodgy shit. Half the Tour seems to have become asthmatic lately, or have a note from their doctor allowing them asthma medication during competition.



PB comments are a gong-show. Waki is half-troll, half-Napolean complex and going full guns at it. The worst thing PB ever did was give him some press and any creedence on their comment boards.

The other PB users have some valid points about the chemistry involved, but its interesting to see (from my point of view at least) how many people justify this shit to themselves. A lot of "amateur" and non-elite level guys talking about how many supplements and junk they're on, then claiming that their ignorance to the contents makes that fine. I bet everyone at the pointy end of the field is examining their supplement ingredient list very carefully right now, which may actually have been the whole point of this exercise.

Isn't Samuel Hill on a concoction of snake venom, kangaroo meat, kookabura feathers and wombat blood?