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The E-word thread. EWS

aaronjb

Turbo Monkey
Jul 22, 2010
1,105
659
What's old is new again:


Regarding Enduro, the bike industry is an echo chamber. It's the same white dudes bouncing around from company to company trying to will their vision of the sport into being. The tail doesn't wag the dog, it turns out.

The worst thing that happened to these tools was having access to capital via acquisition by private equity or, worse, via publicly traded parent companies.

The bike industry again accuses someone of shitting its own pants for them. News at 11.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,922
5,827
UK
What?
I still remember the RS Ruby at the time of introduction.
And once introduced, 700c suspension forks never actually went away.
Most of you ride them on your mountainbikes now.
 
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norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,466
1,680
Warsaw :/
I am not arguing against that. But it is not the "All Mountain/Trail bike Worldcup" but the "Enduro Worldcup", so the marketing fails here. Even some enduro racers use the "smaller" trail bikes of their sponsors, e.g. Canyon CLLCTV riders.
No marketing fail here. If you want a bike for the trails those people ride at the speeds those people ride - buy an enduro bike. If you want a bike for flatter trails, one that's more lively you get one and don't bother if it's called enduro or whatever else. I don't get what's a problem here? Do it all, casual fun bikes are just that. Kinda hard to design marketable race format around them.
 
Feb 21, 2020
865
1,221
SoCo Western Slope
ibis still exists?

huh....
Funny Ibis/DW side note;

They have a new HD6 Endurbro frame with DW suspension coming out. The geo is not insanely long/slack, no long clevis mount and frame lines are nice and clean. Looks decent. I emailed them asking for suspension info like leverage rates/curves, AS, etc.

They replied that all of that information was propriety and DW does not allow it to be released..... :crazy:
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
They replied that all of that information was propriety and DW does not allow it to be released..... :crazy:
nothing new (or even unique to DW/ibis really)


you can map it out if you have a non-distorted preferably CAD profile pic of the frame. It won't be dead nuts accurate but it should provide at least a general idea of what they're doing.
 
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Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,083
1,043
Funny Ibis/DW side note;

They have a new HD6 Endurbro frame with DW suspension coming out. The geo is not insanely long/slack, no long clevis mount and frame lines are nice and clean. Looks decent. I emailed them asking for suspension info like leverage rates/curves, AS, etc.

They replied that all of that information was propriety and DW does not allow it to be released..... :crazy:
Yeah they've told me the same thing before. Usually that Linkage Design blogspot guy will post it eventually.

Edit: yep, here you go: https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2023/06/ibis-hd6-2023.html
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,394
904
coloRADo
In other news, Sepp Kuss has pretty much won La Vuelta a Espana.
The first American in 10 years and the second ever.

Road racing seems healthy and stuffed full of cash. Gravel racing is pretty huge at the moment, maybe all the dentists will trade their Yetis in for skinny tire bikes.

Fox is ready.
View attachment 200655
Don't pay much attention to road. But good on Sepp! Durango, CO represent! Lots of talented riders down there.

When it comes down to collegiate racing Durango (Ft. Lewis) was always on top. At least back in my day.

If you don't remember, that's where the original Yeti came from. And Barracuda. You may not remember that brand.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,487
5,236
Ottawa, Canada
Yeah they've told me the same thing before. Usually that Linkage Design blogspot guy will post it eventually.

Edit: yep, here you go: https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2023/06/ibis-hd6-2023.html
interesting tidbit in reviewing his analysis, is that the system appears to be optimized for 36t-38t chainrings. that pretty much immediately disqualifies me from riding it. seems like an oft-forgotten metric in all the discussions about geo/fitting/kinematics, but a pretty fundamental one IMO...
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
interesting tidbit in reviewing his analysis, is that the system appears to be optimized for 36t-38t chainrings. that pretty much immediately disqualifies me from riding it. seems like an oft-forgotten metric in all the discussions about geo/fitting/kinematics, but a pretty fundamental one IMO...
Antonio Osuna (used to be @Vrock here), Likage Design's blog owner, always points out which chainring size the bike is optimized for.
 
Feb 21, 2020
865
1,221
SoCo Western Slope
Don't pay much attention to road. But good on Sepp! Durango, CO represent! Lots of talented riders down there.

When it comes down to collegiate racing Durango (Ft. Lewis) was always on top. At least back in my day.

If you don't remember, that's where the original Yeti came from. And Barracuda. You may not remember that brand.
And 3D Racing, Durango Bike Works w/ Robbie Rupe, and some crappy attempts like Durango Bike Company.

Currently Myth Cycles, Sanitas Cycles (the Dean Ti guy and son), and Tectonic Components.

For riders; Deadly Nedly, Johnny T, Herbold, Todd and Troy Wells, Chris Blevins, Howard Grotts, a shit town of fast U23 XC riders like Riley Amos, and soon to be WC DH Jr podium sitter Asa Vermette.

The town spits out fast riders like a fat guy blowing mud after a Taco Bell binge.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,805
4,775
Champery, Switzerland
And 3D Racing, Durango Bike Works w/ Robbie Rupe, and some crappy attempts like Durango Bike Company.

Currently Myth Cycles, Sanitas Cycles (the Dean Ti guy and son), and Tectonic Components.

For riders; Deadly Nedly, Johnny T, Herbold, Todd and Troy Wells, Chris Blevins, Howard Grotts, a shit town of fast U23 XC riders like Riley Amos, and soon to be WC DH Jr podium sitter Asa Vermette.

The town spits out fast riders like a fat guy blowing mud after a Taco Bell binge.
Yeah it does! When I went to school in Durango, Missy Giove and Myles Rockwell were living there too.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,466
1,680
Warsaw :/
interesting tidbit in reviewing his analysis, is that the system appears to be optimized for 36t-38t chainrings. that pretty much immediately disqualifies me from riding it. seems like an oft-forgotten metric in all the discussions about geo/fitting/kinematics, but a pretty fundamental one IMO...
You do realize the bike will still pedal fairly well on different rings?
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,487
5,236
Ottawa, Canada
You do realize the bike will still pedal fairly well on different rings?
perhaps. but I'd rather spend time on a bike that is optimized for the kind of riding I do. this one seems biased to pedaling fast downhill. I typically run a 32t ring and have been toying with the thought of a 30t ring. that's a big step down from 36t-38t....
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,466
1,680
Warsaw :/
perhaps. but I'd rather spend time on a bike that is optimized for the kind of riding I do. this one seems biased to pedaling fast downhill. I typically run a 32t ring and have been toying with the thought of a 30t ring. that's a big step down from 36t-38t....
But optimized is such a silly term. It doesn't tell you if the bike pedals better with 32T vs other bikes even if they have been "optimized" for that ring size.
 

aaronjb

Turbo Monkey
Jul 22, 2010
1,105
659
In other news, Sepp Kuss has pretty much won La Vuelta a Espana.
The first American in 10 years and the second ever.

Road racing seems healthy and stuffed full of cash. Gravel racing is pretty huge at the moment, maybe all the dentists will trade their Yetis in for skinny tire bikes.

Fox is ready.
View attachment 200655


Jumbo going 1-2-3 in the Vuelta and winning all the GTs this year truly is a miracle. Just hard work and grit got Kuss that overall after having ridden all three GTs this year.

Like the last American Tour of Spain winner, this performance raised my eyebrows so high that they touched my (receding) hairline.

I hear Kuss is pals with Tom Danielson, one of the dullest knives in a drawer of already worn cutlery that is the pro peloton, and a known doper from the pedigree of dopers from that era of Fort Lewis alumni.

Jumbo not even hiding the hot sauce packets any more.
 
Feb 21, 2020
865
1,221
SoCo Western Slope
Jumbo going 1-2-3 in the Vuelta and winning all the GTs this year truly is a miracle. Just hard work and grit got Kuss that overall after having ridden all three GTs this year.

Like the last American Tour of Spain winner, this performance raised my eyebrows so high that they touched my (receding) hairline.

I hear Kuss is pals with Tom Danielson, one of the dullest knives in a drawer of already worn cutlery that is the pro peloton, and a known doper from the pedigree of dopers from that era of Fort Lewis alumni.

Jumbo not even hiding the hot sauce packets any more.
I'd be very surprised if Kuss was doping. He is such a mellow and all around good guy.
Born and bred in Durango and crushing it from a very young age. For sure no Lance Asshole type.
But stranger things have happened....that time trial was shocking.

Horners Vuelta on the other hand, for sure on something. He was 41 for shits sake and beat a bunch of known dopers to take the win.:crazy:
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,922
5,827
UK
When the entire peleton *were* doping they weren't all Lance asshole types either.

*Like they're not anymore
 

aaronjb

Turbo Monkey
Jul 22, 2010
1,105
659
I'd be very surprised if Kuss was doping. He is such a mellow and all around good guy.
Born and bred in Durango and crushing it from a very young age. For sure no Lance Asshole type.
But stranger things have happened....that time trial was shocking.

Horners Vuelta on the other hand, for sure on something. He was 41 for shits sake and beat a bunch of known dopers to take the win.:crazy:
Fair enough. I hope it stands the rest of time.

Yeah, Horner's win was hilarious. Vuelta is great for some entertainment as contracts come up.

Thankfully no one is doping in Enduro. Some riders did happen to disappear from the reaults just when UCI oversight arrived. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,466
1,680
Warsaw :/
Thankfully no one is doping in Enduro. Some riders did happen to disappear from the reaults just when UCI oversight arrived. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
There was that Richie Rude scandal but I know one ex WADA guy and one sports team trainer and they did mention that it technically is possible to ingest banned substances by accident if there is contamination since suplements are so unregulated you could probably hide nuclear waste in them and most people would not notice.

Though imho even if there is some doping in Enduro I doubt it will be a sports wide problem like in cycling simply because on a % basis better cardio over a certain level gives you less of an advantage than vs in road where you basically have no chance with no gear (seriously people don't realize how much gear can help)


As a fan I want to believe in the legitimacy of the modern era.

On road? Lol. My friend who worked in Wada basically said there is no large sport where everyone at the top isn't on something. He did not meet a sport where people were not trying to ride the old 3 strike rule on location sharing. Not sure if the rule changed though.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,670
1,163
NORCAL is the hizzle
Not saying I totally believe, just that I WANT to believe.

I'm not aware of an formal 3-strikes rule, got a source? It's my understanding that it's zero tolerance these days, both in terms of the governing body and (even more) with the teams.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,466
1,680
Warsaw :/
What's old is new again:


Regarding Enduro, the bike industry is an echo chamber. It's the same white dudes bouncing around from company to company trying to will their vision of the sport into being. The tail doesn't wag the dog, it turns out.

The worst thing that happened to these tools was having access to capital via acquisition by private equity or, worse, via publicly traded parent companies.

The bike industry again accuses someone of shitting its own pants for them. News at 11.
While the echo chamber is partially true this is true for any industry. Still better than some contrarians you find in the industry.

Re. Private equity - my gut feeling is to say "private equity bad" and some companies went shit due to it but we also had plenty of shit companies before it. Hell CB was making really dogshit, unreliable products years before big money came into the industry.


Not saying I totally believe, just that I WANT to believe.

I'm not aware of an formal 3-strikes rule, got a source? It's my understanding that it's zero tolerance these days, both in terms of the governing body and (even more) with the teams.
It's not a rule where you can get caught being on gear 3 times. It's a rule where top athletes have to CONSTANTLY give info to WADA about their wearabouts so they can be surprise tested.

I am quoting the AUS agency here but afaik WADA does the same

Athletes who are part of the registered testing pool need to let us know where they are going to be, at specific times. This is so we can perform testing with no advanced notice.
If athletes in the registered testing pool do not provide current and accurate whereabouts information, they may incur a declaration of a missed test, or a filing failure. This is sometimes called a ‘strike’.
If an athlete gets 3 strikes in a 12 month period, this is an anti-doping rule violation and the athlete can be sanctioned.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,083
1,043
I would not be totally surprised if they decided to keep EDR-E alive.
Yep. I don't have a hard time believing that they kill EDR, but keep EDR-E. I suspect that it will evolve into something like XCO where it's more TV friendly (multiple laps on shorter track, whole thing timed, possibly running at same time), just with spicier tracks. That way the lizards from broadcast and bike industry both benefit.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,922
5,827
UK
XC is the most stupid discipline for Ebikes due to the massive differences in peak torque and power between motors.
Enduro would have worked quite well if those idiots hadn't put in climbing stages and fucking stupid pedalling sections in their tracks.
Ride up DH is the only sensible race category for an ebike. And even then. Only on proper DH tracks making motor choice less of an unfair advantage.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
16,279
13,549
I wish I could find the YT video of that FIM moped racing where a bunch of joeys were basically on a motocross track...
 

vivisectxi

Monkey
Jan 14, 2021
495
598
yeast van
Enduro would have worked quite well if those idiots hadn't put in climbing stages and fucking stupid pedalling sections in their tracks.
Ride up DH is the only sensible race category for an ebike. And even then. Only on proper DH tracks making motor choice less of an unfair advantage.
i could totally wrap my head around this format. self-shuttle multi stage dh. proper dh tracks, dual crown long travel ebikes, etc.