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The E-word thread. EWS

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
980
962
XC is the most stupid discipline for Ebikes due to the massive differences in peak torque and power between motors.
Enduro would have worked quite well if those idiots hadn't put in climbing stages and fucking stupid pedalling sections in their tracks.
Ride up DH is the only sensible race category for an ebike. And even then. Only on proper DH tracks making motor choice less of an unfair advantage.
Yep, I'm not at all saying that I think it's a good idea. I just think that the Lizards think its a good idea. I didn't follow EDR-E at all but whenever I heard anything about results, it was accompanied by complaints about how much they weighted the "power" (climbing) stage because it just favored motors. Wasn't there an EWS-E race a couple years back where Sam Hill won every single descending stage but lost the overall race because someone else won the climbing stage?
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
Wasn't there an EWS-E race a couple years back where Sam Hill won every single descending stage but lost the overall race because someone else won the climbing stage?
As far as I know he's only ever done one EWS E. The tweed valley one (local to me) in 2021. the one with a gazillion stages where Reece absolutely skooled everyone winning all the early non climb stages then had a wee *crash* and feined an injury so he could go home. Yeah. Hill lost a couple of minutes in the stupid climbing stages and Vouilloz won. So yeah. Take out the climbing stages and Hill probably would have won. Like anyone would care!
A mate did it and had a mechanical 2/3 of the way round and was glad to go home too. It was apparently way more knackering than the actual EWS.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,419
4,643
Australia
E bike racing is bloody stupid, but I can see the marketing push for it to exist. If they dropped the climbing stages it would probably get taken slightly more seriously by anyone with a basic grasp of power-to-weight and technology but its still a joke.

Wouldn't surprise me if the EDR/EWS series was dead. It peaked a few seasons ago when it offered fresh and exciting venues for riders and spectators alike a little bored with the same DH venues, but has slowly fallen into the same old, same old as the start up energy waned.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
E bike racing is bloody stupid, but I can see the marketing push for it to exist. If they dropped the climbing stages it would probably get taken slightly more seriously by anyone with a basic grasp of power-to-weight and technology but its still a joke.

Wouldn't surprise me if the EDR/EWS series was dead. It peaked a few seasons ago when it offered fresh and exciting venues for riders and spectators alike a little bored with the same DH venues, but has slowly fallen into the same old, same old as the start up energy waned.
My genuine hope with endurpo at large and even more so per this conversation was that the format became a series of descent stages. Have some kind of time limit so you don't finish in the dark on climbing/transfer portions but just multiple descents throughout the day. Like only real descents, not the mixed bag bullshit so many of the stages ended up having.

Instead it became some dumbass euro vision of the human spirit triumphing against all blah blah blah. The kind of thing where you can lose on climbing. Years ago I looked at the whistler stop and the amount of timed climbing was just stupid. Pedaling contests already exist. This had the chance to actually be something cool and they fucked it up.

However....now add ebikes and you have your version of a more inclusive (although not financially) series of fun parts, IE actual descending with the ability to make all the stages and climbs and transfers more doable for the average bike rider......who most companies want very badly to sell ebikes to.
 
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shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
My genuine hope with endurpo at large and even more so per this conversation was that the format became a series of descent stages. Have some kind of time limit so you don't finish in the dark on climbing/transfer portions but just multiple descents throughout the day.

Instead it became some dumbass euro vision of the human spirit triumphing against all blah blah blah. Years ago I looked at the whistler stop and the amount of timed climbing was just stupid. Pedaling contests already exist. This had the chance to actually be something cool and they fucked it up.

However....now add ebikes and you have your version of a more inclusive (although not financially) series of fun parts, IE actual descending with the ability to make all the stages and climbs and transfers more doable for the average bike rider......who most companies want very badly to sell ebikes to.
I've raced nearly all the Whistler ones....what year do you think there was a bunch of timed climbing? From memory I can't recall a stage that was "uh wtf why this much climbing?". Maybe the wee uphill sprint in Khybers Pass? It wasn't long, just short n steep, jump off the bike and sprint up it for 30-45 second.

Sure there have been some big days in the saddle with LOTS of pedaling and climbing to get from stage to stage, but not so much in stage timed climbing. The years with full Top of the World to the Village have been the most demanding stages.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
My genuine hope with endurpo at large and even more so per this conversation was that the format became a series of descent stages. Have some kind of time limit so you don't finish in the dark on climbing/transfer portions but just multiple descents throughout the day. Like only real descents, not the mixed bag bullshit so many of the stages ended up having.

Instead it became some dumbass euro vision of the human spirit triumphing against all blah blah blah. The kind of thing where you can lose on climbing. Years ago I looked at the whistler stop and the amount of timed climbing was just stupid. Pedaling contests already exist. This had the chance to actually be something cool and they fucked it up.

However....now add ebikes and you have your version of a more inclusive (although not financially) series of fun parts, IE actual descending with the ability to make all the stages and climbs and transfers more doable for the average bike rider......who most companies want very badly to sell ebikes to.
Are you arguing for e-bikes? :brow:
Hard enduro already exists, so no need for E-EDR.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I've raced nearly all the Whistler ones....what year do you think there was a bunch of timed climbing? From memory I can't recall a stage that was "uh wtf why this much climbing?". Maybe the wee uphill sprint in Khybers Pass? It wasn't long, just short n steep, jump off the bike and sprint up it for 30-45 second.

Sure there have been some big days in the saddle with LOTS of pedaling and climbing to get from stage to stage, but not so much in stage timed climbing. The years with full Top of the World to the Village have been the most demanding stages.
With the sheer volume of climbing just to complete the race on that one, ANY timed climbing, even in the middle of the 'descents' is a little nuts on that one. Maybe all the ews races are like that and the whistler one stood out to me just because I know the area and know just how much climbing you had to do in order to race. Just seemed dumb. Especially on a ski area with lifts.

you didn't start doing them until the third one I thought? I think that's the one I'm thinking of because I remembered you doing it so I looked up what was involved in order to heckle you.
 
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iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
it's the only thing they're good for

the industry seems hell bent on selling them, that's a way to make a successful series that doesn't eat itself

And honestly create a hell of a lot more enjoyable events that can better trickle down to more local stuff
:eek: Help, someone hacked Kidwoo's account! Or has he been kidnapped and is forced to write this??? Who are you? Get us the old, industry hating Kidwoo back!
What is next, are you starting to advocate for 29ers and flow trails??? :fie:
 

FlipSide

Turbo Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
1,367
784
:eek: Help, someone hacked Kidwoo's account! Or has he been kidnapped and is forced to write this??? Who are you? Get us the old, industry hating Kidwoo back!
What is next, are you starting to advocate for 29ers and flow trails??? :fie:
Carbon bar/stem combos are what Kidwoo is the most excited about these days, allegedly.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,419
4,643
Australia
My genuine hope with endurpo at large and even more so per this conversation was that the format became a series of descent stages. Have some kind of time limit so you don't finish in the dark on climbing/transfer portions but just multiple descents throughout the day. Like only real descents, not the mixed bag bullshit so many of the stages ended up having.

Instead it became some dumbass euro vision of the human spirit triumphing against all blah blah blah. The kind of thing where you can lose on climbing. Years ago I looked at the whistler stop and the amount of timed climbing was just stupid. Pedaling contests already exist. This had the chance to actually be something cool and they fucked it up.
Yeah I've done a few big enduros now and the amount of climbing involved varies from almost none to pretty fucking ridiculous for mortals. The best/most fun ones are either shuttled or lift accessed with very minimal liason climbing, or if you're going for the "big adventure day" style, at least with generous time limits (or no limit) for the climbing.

I did the Whistler Challenger enduro in 2018 and it was realistically fuck all climbing and I even had time to stop for a beer. The only mid-stage climbing was a little pinch on Top of World and another fireroad section linking Heavy Flow to some singletrack. Both very minimal - as Eddie Masters mentioned (and the literal rule book says) - "the enduro aspect should be the amount of descending in the day, not the climbing".

As it got more popular, and they tried to get more media coverage and make it The Next Big Thing they started changing the EWS format so the time cut-offs for the liasons were legitimately hard to make even for professional athletes. When people who train for a living are arriving at the stage start just in time, or missing the cut-off you've fucked up/lost the plot.

Once they scrapped the Masters category I pretty much gave up on EDR/EWS and now I just do local enduros and DH events with the crew and save my money for non-racing bike holidays or doing those multi-day enduros (which have some bloody awesome stages and no set stage start times/liason time limits).
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,419
4,643
Australia
I've raced nearly all the Whistler ones....what year do you think there was a bunch of timed climbing? From memory I can't recall a stage that was "uh wtf why this much climbing?". Maybe the wee uphill sprint in Khybers Pass? It wasn't long, just short n steep, jump off the bike and sprint up it for 30-45 second.

Sure there have been some big days in the saddle with LOTS of pedaling and climbing to get from stage to stage, but not so much in stage timed climbing. The years with full Top of the World to the Village have been the most demanding stages.
Did you race the Rockwork Orange - KMB - Wizard Burial ground stage? Honestly that didn't have much climbing per se but holy hell the jank would have made it super physical. Talk about no flow zone.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
As it got more popular, and they tried to get more media coverage and make it The Next Big Thing they started changing the EWS format so the time cut-offs for the liasons were legitimately hard to make even for professional athletes. When people who train for a living are arriving at the stage start just in time, or missing the cut-off you've fucked up/lost the plot.
Yeah that's the shit I remember. At that point it's just another fitness contest and you may as well just go run a marathon and save some money.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,419
4,643
Australia
Yeah that's the shit I remember. At that point it's just another fitness contest and you may as well just go run a marathon and save some money.
Yep, dunno whether they wanted a shorter day for media coverage or what the reasoning was but they fucked it.


Maydena is running an event in a month called Enduro Jam. Unlimited timed runs, uplifts, all descending stages over two days. The EDR/UCI can eat a bag, I'm giving my money to people putting on rad shit like that.
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
With the sheer volume of climbing just to complete the race on that one, ANY timed climbing, even in the middle of the 'descents' is a little nuts on that one. Maybe all the ews races are like that and the whistler one stood out to me just because I know the area and know just how much climbing you had to do in order to race. Just seemed dumb. Especially on a ski area with lifts.

you didn't start doing them until the third one I thought? I think that's the one I'm thinking of because I remembered you doing it so I looked up what was involved in order to heckle you.
I did 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015. In 2016 there was a loto and I didn't get a spot, there was the Challenger short course option and I raced that. 2017 again loto and I didn't get a spot, with the 2nd kid born that year I didn't bother with the short course. 2019 I got the itch again and signed up for the EWS 80 short course.

Crankworx technically count back to 2009 and 2010 as part of their enduro history but these weren't the same. They were a kinda mass start Garbo DH with some fire road climbing mid course more Super D than enduro as we know it. In 2010 during Crankworx Richie Schley put on an event as a fundraiser for WORCA called Richie's Rally and this would be the first enduro in the valley, it was three laps of the west side off the Flank trail, no timing on the climb and just timed DH, we end up calling it Flankworx.

The big one was the infamous Crankzilla of 2014. This was 2300m of climbing and a big day but not so bad if you managed your time and Just. Kept. Moving. Lots of the amateur's missed their time cut off to Stage 4 getting up to Lower Ride Don't Slide, the access up to this was slow with a slog section that was push up a steep access road.
 

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
4,993
3,697
sw ontario canada
Yep, dunno whether they wanted a shorter day for media coverage or what the reasoning was but they fucked it.


Maydena is running an event in a month called Enduro Jam. Unlimited timed runs, uplifts, all descending stages over two days. The EDR/UCI can eat a bag, I'm giving my money to people putting on rad shit like that.
Nailed it.

WTF is so hard to understand about this?

Pick a lift serviced hill.
Pick a bunch of DH trails.
Time a run down each one.
Lowest combined time down wins.

All you gotta do is formalize and structure what huge numbers of us do with our buddies all summer.

Fucking industry. :disgust:
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
Did you race the Rockwork Orange - KMB - Wizard Burial ground stage? Honestly that didn't have much climbing per se but holy hell the jank would have made it super physical. Talk about no flow zone.
This was 2017, one of the few years I didn't do. But I we had raced Rockwork Orange - KMB previously when it was very fresh new trail. I can't recall off the top of my head what it was so many events have kinda blurred together.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
53,932
19,668
Sleazattle
Nailed it.

WTF is so hard to understand about this?

Pick a lift serviced hill.
Pick a bunch of DH trails.
Eat a $10 slice of pizza that has been under a heat lamp for 3 days
Time a run down each one.
Lowest combined time down wins.

All you gotta do is formalize and structure what huge numbers of us do with our buddies all summer.

Fucking industry. :disgust:
FTFY
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
that's how you know know the joyride years were better
no stupid enduro shit :D

maybe 2014 is the one I'm thinking of. I never paid attention to anything after that because it was obvious that sport went full dipshit
2014 was the year that cracked many. It was dialed back after that, they had to find their mix of hard man epic and still fun.

It is interesting that there was different flavour to all the different early EWS events, some more epic long days, some more lift, some well balanced. Personally I think this is what was lost from about 2019 onwards, the format was narrowed down and the variety that made it interesting was lost some.

Besides anyone that is anyone knows that the Officially Unofficial World Chainless Enduro Championship of the World is the single best enduro event ever held. Current top time held by one Eddie Masters the Spirit of Enduro himself. Chainless enduro racing is the next big thing.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
2014 was the year that cracked many. It was dialed back after that, they had to find their mix of hard man epic and still fun.

It is interesting that there was different flavour to all the different early EWS events, some more epic long days, some more lift, some well balanced. Personally I think this is what was lost from about 2019 onwards, the format was narrowed down and the variety that made it interesting was lost some.

Besides anyone that is anyone knows that the Officially Unofficial World Chainless Enduro Championship of the World is the single best enduro event ever held. Current top time held by one Eddie Masters the Spirit of Enduro himself. Chainless enduro racing is the next big thing.
pedalin's fer queers


you remember those guys that used to ride the bike park chainless in daisy dukes, no pads, with those stickers?

I tried so hard to find if they were selling them anywhere
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
pedalin's fer queers


you remember those guys that used to ride the bike park chainless in daisy dukes, no pads, with those stickers?

I tried so hard to find if they were selling them anywhere
You still snowboard? Your skootch skills would probably come in handy for Chainless Enduro. The World's course for Chainless Enduro has one wee tiny climb on it and the drop in to each stage is usually 20-30 ft downhill of the trail entrance, get that skootch on to get into the trail.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
You still snowboard? Your skootch skills would probably come in handy for Chainless Enduro. The World's course for Chainless Enduro has one wee tiny climb on it and the drop in to each stage is usually 20-30 ft downhill of the trail entrance, get that skootch on to get into the trail.
sounds like a job for saddlespur!



dongseat.JPG
 
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FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,648
482
Sea to Sky BC
2014 was the year that cracked many. It was dialed back after that, they had to find their mix of hard man epic and still fun.

It is interesting that there was different flavour to all the different early EWS events, some more epic long days, some more lift, some well balanced. Personally I think this is what was lost from about 2019 onwards, the format was narrowed down and the variety that made it interesting was lost some.
I loved the 2014 event, but I'm also not the kind of guy to bitch about pedalling! I also front flatted on billy epic, and rear flatted after the first section on top of the world but finished and not last.

year after crankzilla they went the other way with 3 lift rides...I bitched about the amount of that in 2015 cause I know I'm better at hard long days where people start making lots of mistakes, Seb said I was making excuses, so I won that year 2 weeks after my wedding! haha
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I loved the 2014 event, but I'm also not the kind of guy to bitch about pedalling! I also front flatted on billy epic, and rear flatted after the first section on top of the world but finished and not last.

year after crankzilla they went the other way with 3 lift rides...I bitched about the amount of that in 2015 cause I know I'm better at hard long days where people start making lots of mistakes, Seb said I was making excuses, so I won that year 2 weeks after my wedding! haha
humblebrag.jpg
 

vivisectxi

Monkey
Jan 14, 2021
462
563
yeast van
The big one was the infamous Crankzilla of 2014. This was 2300m of climbing and a big day but not so bad if you managed your time and Just. Kept. Moving. Lots of the amateur's missed their time cut off to Stage 4 getting up to Lower Ride Don't Slide, the access up to this was slow with a slog section that was push up a steep access road.
that was a proper bike ride. the s4 climb was gruelling; temps were pushing mid 30's i think? starting the day with 2 laps of blackcomb didn't help. i was just hanging on (barely) for the totw stage. pretty rad day though.
 

two-one

Monkey
Dec 15, 2013
152
136
Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Yeah there have been quite a few outlier enduro events here in Europe. I remember buddies of mine doing the Epic Enduro in Olargues. Waking up at 4AM to pedal 5000hms in a day, and decending 9 rocky stages, first two in the dark.

And on the other side was the Enduro2, where British endurobroz were complaining they had to pedal 100m from the lift to the start of the stage on their shiny new nomads.

I think the Italians did it best with their Superenduro events. I remember digging up a few of those gpx's. Really enjoyable, the right balance of climbing and technical decending.
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,775
2,066
not in Whistler anymore :/
Nailed it.

WTF is so hard to understand about this?

Pick a lift serviced hill.
Pick a bunch of DH trails.
Time a run down each one.
Lowest combined time down wins.

All you gotta do is formalize and structure what huge numbers of us do with our buddies all summer.

Fucking industry. :disgust:
there’s a nice alternative here, you race in a team, have 6h per day, and can ride all trails in the area. you need to arrive at a certain point before the time runs out. trails get you different points, team with the most trail points wins. no timing equipment needed.
 

two-one

Monkey
Dec 15, 2013
152
136
Eindhoven, the Netherlands
dear god that is rough
I joined them to the event for a week, and what bothered me most is that instead of 6 days of fun riding, every day was in service of that herculean effort... 2 days of recon, 2 days of 'rest', 1 race day, and 1 day of recoveryriding before we went back... it just didn't seem nearly as much fun as a week in an area like that could have been.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,048
1,285
Styria
Yeah I've done a few big enduros now and the amount of climbing involved varies from almost none to pretty fucking ridiculous for mortals. The best/most fun ones are either shuttled or lift accessed with very minimal liason climbing, or if you're going for the "big adventure day" style, at least with generous time limits (or no limit) for the climbing.

I did the Whistler Challenger enduro in 2018 and it was realistically fuck all climbing and I even had time to stop for a beer. The only mid-stage climbing was a little pinch on Top of World and another fireroad section linking Heavy Flow to some singletrack. Both very minimal - as Eddie Masters mentioned (and the literal rule book says) - "the enduro aspect should be the amount of descending in the day, not the climbing".

As it got more popular, and they tried to get more media coverage and make it The Next Big Thing they started changing the EWS format so the time cut-offs for the liasons were legitimately hard to make even for professional athletes. When people who train for a living are arriving at the stage start just in time, or missing the cut-off you've fucked up/lost the plot.

Once they scrapped the Masters category I pretty much gave up on EDR/EWS and now I just do local enduros and DH events with the crew and save my money for non-racing bike holidays or doing those multi-day enduros (which have some bloody awesome stages and no set stage start times/liason time limits).
2019 was also the last year Sam Hill gave a fuck and won the overall without winning a Race. Courses were changed to "suit" him better the following years...