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The Economy (2020/21)

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
This is an incredible write-up I pulled from another website with the data to support it:

Wealth inequality is so much worse than most people realize, our current economic system is very broken and there's plenty of information that proves it. So, where to start?

- The ultra-rich have as much as $32 trillion hidden away in offshore accounts to avoid taxes. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-offshore-wealth-idUSBRE86L03U20120722

- As a way to understand the magnitude of the number 32 trillion (32,000,000,000,000), let's use time as an example. One million seconds is only 12 days, but one billion seconds is 31 years. So there's a massive difference between a million and a billion, much more than people realize. But how much is 32 trillion seconds? It's over a million years.

People know it's an issue but they don't understand just how extreme it can be. Here's an example: **If you had a job that paid you $2,000 an hour, and you worked full time (40 hours a week) with no vacations, and you somehow managed to save all of that money and not spend a single cent of it, you would still have to work more than 25,000 years until you had as much wealth as Jeff Bezos.** And yes his wealth isn't all in cash, but he wouldn't want it to be. https://np.reddit.com/r/MobilizedMinds/comments/dn8xdp/but_their_money_isnt_all_in_liquid_assets/

I've been researching this issue for years because I was shocked at just how bad it really is. I've come to the conclusion that there are underlying flaws in the system, and I've put together some information to help illustrate it.

**Graphs:**
- Possibly the most important graph ever: productivity is increasing but wages are stagnant, all the profit is going to the wealthy

-When adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage has actually been falling since 1970

-Distribution of U.S. income

- Distributionof average U.S. income growth during expansions

-Icome inequality in the U.S. compared to western Europe

- Inequalityis still an issue in Europe though, here's the distribution of German wealth

-U.S. economic mobility compared to other developed countries

-Taxes for the richest Americans have plummeted over the last 50 years
Https://i.ibb.co/mzjm1Sj/Fake-Candid-Dungbeetle-size-restricted.gif

-Amazing info-graphic about U.S. economics over time
Https://i.ibb.co/wR3PY5D/e8t78dn0d5h21.png

- In addition to all of that, there's another layer of inequality as well
https://i.ibb.co/bd27TM7/e4uoe4w8z6r31.jpg

**Videos:**
- A quick illustration of wealth inequality in America

-Corporations have more of an effect on U.S. law than the public
- Rich people don't create jobs

- Neo-feudalism explained

- How American CEOs got so rich

- The origins of conservatism
https://youtu.be/E4CI2vk3ugk

- Neoliberalism explained

-Why inequality matters

-Beware fellow plutocrats: pitchforks are coming

-The new feudalism

-Wealth and inheritance

-The Money Masters

- Flaws of capitalism

**Articles:**

*Wonderful article about minimum wage, inflation and cost of living

-Small farms are being consolidated up into big agriculture

- "Is curing patients a sustainable business model?"

- Study shows that you're more likely to be successful if you're born rich and dumb than poor and smart

- This scientific study concluded that banks can create money out of thin air

- Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

**Quotes:**

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By workers I mean all workers, and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level, I mean the wages of decent living."
- Franklin Delano Roosevelt speaking about the minimum wage (it was always meant to be a living wage)

"The cause of poverty is not that we're unable to satisfy the needs of the poor, it's that we're unable to satisfy the greed of the rich."
- Anonymous

Anyone who believes in indefinite growth on a physically finite planet is either a lunatic or an economist."
- Kenneth Boulding

"A century ago scarcity had to be endured; now it must be enforced."
- Murray Bookchin

"Capitalism as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion."
- Albert Einstein

"If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."
- Stephen Hawking.
bump


also, what do you do for work again stoney?
 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
21,599
7,245
Colorado
bump


also, what do you do for work again stoney?
bump


also, what do you do for work again stoney?
The average account balance for the individuals in my plans is <$200k. If I negate the plans that are Social Security replacement, that average will drop to <$100k. Average age of employees is <50. I work in government markets, so generally lower paid employees. I also don't work on commission - it's why I do the job I do

I believe the wealth disparity we see in this country is a huge part of what's ripping it apart. Racism is a symptom, but when the population is fighting for scraps, finger point and minority blaming is human history. While I unquestionably believe in the stock market and investing for long-term growth, unfettered capitalism like the late 1800's (and the track we're being directed towards now) can't exist within a reasonable society. The "Great America" the Boomers talk about so much was when wealth disparity was kept in check through corp law, labor unions, and a functional govt. Bring back the Rockefeller tax.

Just because I work in the financial markets doesn't mean I can't believe that corporations need to be throttled. Profits need to be secondary to society. They need to be secondary the environment.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,147
796
Lima, Peru, Peru
Fed Chairman Jerome Powell and others have been asked repeatedly about whether they’re concerned over the rising prices. Powell specifically has said that as long as interest rates stay low, the valuations are justified.
This is where the magic happens.
Interest rates will stay low for as long as possible, and this can only be sustained with enough demand for US dollars overseas.

The US gvmt convicing the Arabs to set the price of oil in US dollars some 50 years ago was probably the most genius play of this century. It allowed for the export of inflation.
Covid allowed for the opportunity to test the limits of this ability to export inflation. And as far as I can tell.. it seems virtually unlimited.

Whatever newly minted US dollars pumped into the world during the last year would threaten to increase the value of the currency in export-driven economies and foreign central banks would print local currencies to match the newly minted dollars, creating local inflation and "aliviating" US inflation by absorbing those newly minted dollars.
 

Sandro

Terrified of Cucumbers
Nov 12, 2006
3,224
2,537
The old world
Is it really down to an excessive "appetite for risk" or could this have something to do with high asset prices?



I've pretty much given up on trying to buy a home, which is probably dumb, since there is really no reason for prices to slow their climb unless rates increase or the money printer slows down. One argument that I repeatedly see otherwise irritating cryptoheads with laser eyes make on twitter is to divide asset prices by the Fed balance sheet and suddenly most will appear flat.

Again, I'm completely out of my element here, but aren't at least stock prices much more likely to come down due to something like Archegos happening to a larger fund?
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,036
14,649
where the trails are
Again, I'm completely out of my element here, but aren't at least stock prices much more likely to come down due to something like Archegos happening to a larger fund?
Yes!
Temporarily, at least. This is going to be a shocking crash, but a real opportunity to invest in sound companies (if inclined) at what will seem like untouchable prices.
 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
21,599
7,245
Colorado
Yes!
Temporarily, at least. This is going to be a shocking crash, but a real opportunity to invest in sound companies (if inclined) at what will seem like untouchable prices.
My only concern is that the companies that people are dumping money into, with minimal or negative earnings, are going to detonate and people will lose lots of money. Companies like Uber, Lift, Door dash, etc are all just modern day Pets.com. Pets.com was not profitable and built on the hope of being bought out. All those listed are not profitable if drivers are classified as employees.
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,036
14,649
where the trails are
My only concern is that the companies that people are dumping money into, with minimal or negative earnings, are going to detonate and people will lose lots of money. Companies like Uber, Lift, Door dash, etc are all just modern day Pets.com. Pets.com was not profitable and built on the hope of being bought out. All those listed are not profitable if drivers are classified as employees.
Hence my choice of "sound companies".
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
The average account balance for the individuals in my plans is <$200k. If I negate the plans that are Social Security replacement, that average will drop to <$100k. Average age of employees is <50. I work in government markets, so generally lower paid employees. I also don't work on commission - it's why I do the job I do

I believe the wealth disparity we see in this country is a huge part of what's ripping it apart. Racism is a symptom, but when the population is fighting for scraps, finger point and minority blaming is human history. While I unquestionably believe in the stock market and investing for long-term growth, unfettered capitalism like the late 1800's (and the track we're being directed towards now) can't exist within a reasonable society. The "Great America" the Boomers talk about so much was when wealth disparity was kept in check through corp law, labor unions, and a functional govt. Bring back the Rockefeller tax.

Just because I work in the financial markets doesn't mean I can't believe that corporations need to be throttled. Profits need to be secondary to society. They need to be secondary the environment.

Wow, only having 100-200k to play with must be so rough.

If you have less than say, $10mm, I'd put you under the "normal person" range.
I mean hey we all know exactly what's happening to the planet but all own cars and continue to book flights, so I don't know why this would be any different.

I quoted your old post from the beginning of this thread for a reason. There's some good stuff in there. But continuing to contribute to the nonsense even if you recognize it for what it is, is still continuing nonsense. I mean hey it's the water we swim in but dressing it up in altruism is additional nonsense.

Honestly I was more just bumping the old post to read and watch some of that stuff again, with ribbing secondary priority.
 
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stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
21,599
7,245
Colorado
Wow, only having 100-200k to play with must be so rough.

I mean hey we all know exactly what's happening to the planet but all own cars and continue to book flights, so I don't know why this would be any different.

I quoted your old post from the beginning of this thread for a reason. There's some good stuff in there. But continuing to contribute to the nonsense even if you recognize it for what it is, is still continuing nonsense. I mean hey it's the water we swim in but dressing it up in altruism is kinda BS.
I use the $10mm threshold as "normal person" because a top tier lawyer or doctor could expect to get to that level by end of career starting out of college with $0. Above that point? We're starting to get into family wealth and relatively large business owners. At which point, if you are paying your employees living wage, to have net worths at that level, you have to have an incredibly successful business. Beyond that? You can't spend that money in lifetime (unless you're an idiot). Rockefeller rule in full effect. There is zero reason that a person should have a net worth of $1b dollars. Even $100mm is fucking ludicrous. Tax the fuck out of it. And while you're at it, pull the cap on payroll taxes (ie. Social Security and Medicare funding taxes). That shit needs to be progressive, not regressive. If you're making enough money to be hit by that on the high end, another 6.2% before-tax isn't going to kill you. And if it's a problem, you have spending issues that you need to deal with, sorry.

As for the $100-200k comment. For the $100k group - we're talking people 50+ years old with who saved 5% for 20-30yrs through the best stock market essentially ever. Not hard to get there. The $200k+ group - there are some municipal government retirement plans that are known as Social Security replacement plans - 401(a). These people do not pay into and will not get any SS. They and their employers have mandatory contribution levels that are combined to around 13-20%. Let me know how you would like to retire on $200-500k with NO other money or SS. Most of these people are looking at 50% drops in income from already very low income levels (see govt). You don't take and keep a govt job because you're a risk taker, so most are overly conservative and haven't gotten the growth they need to retire, and are even more thoroughly screwed.

As for the dressing up in altruism, that's not what I'm doing. I make my income off it, I don't challenge that. Do I do it in a way that I can be neutral (at least as much as possible) and to other people's best interest? Yes, because I have some fucking morals. If you're out there buying your toys - your bikes, dirt bike, etc - you're part of the problem too. We all are. Of anybody on this forum, @johnbryanpeters is the only one who we can put on a pedestal as doing the right thing because he's publicly giving everything to charity. But the fact that is what has to happen - individuals are having to give to charities because shit isn't being taken care of by a govt that's not taxing the hyper-wealthy, letting them taking advantage of the same people who are actually paying taxes only to have to rely on govt benefits because they are getting paid enough to survive, while funding wars wiping out populations elsewhere in the world, leaving our country to rot, while making those same people even wealthier is fucking bullshit.

Every single one of us that has a job is part of the "problem" as you describe it. @Pesqueeb makes a living keeping those same planes flying. @jonKranked makes money keeping those same pharma companies shipping drugs. At least @Nick can say he's building solar and wind projects.

The only way we can start resolving many (if not most) of the issues this country has, is by closing the wealth gap. We saw what happened through the late-40's through 60's before the Boomers took control. Heavy taxes were leaves on high income earners. Labor unions we're strong and kept wages high. Laws we're in place keeping income between highest and lowest income earners at a company were in place. Companies made more money (due to tax structure) by issuing dividends or investing back into themselves than buying stock and blindly driving up price. Huge amounts of money went into internal infrastructure projects.

Fix the problems at the top - income disparity - and a lot of the other problems will sort themselves out.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,883
24,464
media blackout
I use the $10mm threshold as "normal person" because a top tier lawyer or doctor could expect to get to that level by end of career starting out of college with $0. Above that point? We're starting to get into family wealth and relatively large business owners. At which point, if you are paying your employees living wage, to have net worths at that level, you have to have an incredibly successful business. Beyond that? You can't spend that money in lifetime (unless you're an idiot). Rockefeller rule in full effect. There is zero reason that a person should have a net worth of $1b dollars. Even $100mm is fucking ludicrous. Tax the fuck out of it. And while you're at it, pull the cap on payroll taxes (ie. Social Security and Medicare funding taxes). That shit needs to be progressive, not regressive. If you're making enough money to be hit by that on the high end, another 6.2% before-tax isn't going to kill you. And if it's a problem, you have spending issues that you need to deal with, sorry.

As for the $100-200k comment. For the $100k group - we're talking people 50+ years old with who saved 5% for 20-30yrs through the best stock market essentially ever. Not hard to get there. The $200k+ group - there are some municipal government retirement plans that are known as Social Security replacement plans - 401(a). These people do not pay into and will not get any SS. They and their employers have mandatory contribution levels that are combined to around 13-20%. Let me know how you would like to retire on $200-500k with NO other money or SS. Most of these people are looking at 50% drops in income from already very low income levels (see govt). You don't take and keep a govt job because you're a risk taker, so most are overly conservative and haven't gotten the growth they need to retire, and are even more thoroughly screwed.

As for the dressing up in altruism, that's not what I'm doing. I make my income off it, I don't challenge that. Do I do it in a way that I can be neutral (at least as much as possible) and to other people's best interest? Yes, because I have some fucking morals. If you're out there buying your toys - your bikes, dirt bike, etc - you're part of the problem too. We all are. Of anybody on this forum, @johnbryanpeters is the only one who we can put on a pedestal as doing the right thing because he's publicly giving everything to charity. But the fact that is what has to happen - individuals are having to give to charities because shit isn't being taken care of by a govt that's not taxing the hyper-wealthy, letting them taking advantage of the same people who are actually paying taxes only to have to rely on govt benefits because they are getting paid enough to survive, while funding wars wiping out populations elsewhere in the world, leaving our country to rot, while making those same people even wealthier is fucking bullshit.

Every single one of us that has a job is part of the "problem" as you describe it. @Pesqueeb makes a living keeping those same planes flying. @jonKranked makes money keeping those same pharma companies shipping drugs. At least @Nick can say he's building solar and wind projects.

The only way we can start resolving many (if not most) of the issues this country has, is by closing the wealth gap. We saw what happened through the late-40's through 60's before the Boomers took control. Heavy taxes were leaves on high income earners. Labor unions we're strong and kept wages high. Laws we're in place keeping income between highest and lowest income earners at a company were in place. Companies made more money (due to tax structure) by issuing dividends or investing back into themselves than buying stock and blindly driving up price. Huge amounts of money went into internal infrastructure projects.

Fix the problems at the top - income disparity - and a lot of the other problems will sort themselves out.
i don't work in pharma, i work in med device. for my function/role, the money is actually better.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,408
20,197
Sleazattle
I paid into a voluntary pension plan when I was at GE. Should give me $10K/year when I retire. Of course the pension plan is a few billion dollars underfunded so I see it being as reliable as social security.

GE offered to buy out my pension for a few thousand in cash a few years ago. It of course was a giant financial disadvantage to me other than mitigating the risk of the whole pension plan disappearing. I declined the offer.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,883
24,464
media blackout
I see that a lot. Guys staying an extra couple years at jobs they hate to get full vesting.
i'm already fully vested, but the longer my service (years) goes, the more i'll get out of it.

i have a very good benefits/compensation package. i haven't left in large part because of it. also because if i went to another company, i'd be doing the exact same stuff, dealing with the exact same problems (or worse), but for less pay.
 
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stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
21,599
7,245
Colorado
I paid into a voluntary pension plan when I was at GE. Should give me $10K/year when I retire. Of course the pension plan is a few billion dollars underfunded so I see it being as reliable as social security.

GE offered to buy out my pension for a few thousand in cash a few years ago. It of course was a giant financial disadvantage to me other than mitigating the risk of the whole pension plan disappearing. I declined the offer.
Get rid of the cap on payroll taxes and SS is funded indefinitely. Increase min wage to $15; more funds contribute to SS fund. Seems like a lot of problems as self correct.
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,646
12,706
In a van.... down by the river
I paid into a voluntary pension plan when I was at GE. Should give me $10K/year when I retire. Of course the pension plan is a few billion dollars underfunded so I see it being as reliable as social security.

GE offered to buy out my pension for a few thousand in cash a few years ago. It of course was a giant financial disadvantage to me other than mitigating the risk of the whole pension plan disappearing. I declined the offer.
I've got something very similar to this from Boeing. And to be honest, with no kids in college any more, and no mortgage, that's going to be a decent amount of $$ for us.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,408
20,197
Sleazattle
I've got something very similar to this from Boeing. And to be honest, with no kids in college any more, and no mortgage, that's going to be a decent amount of $$ for us.

Considering this was voluntary and 100% out of pocket, it wasn't a great return but considered a nice conservative but guaranteed source of retirement income. But GE decided to play a bunch of financial shell games that once discovered showed that the funds $5,000,000,000 surplus was actually a $22,000,000,000 deficit. That is equivalent to the GDP of Iceland