[rideit]

They also forgot conferences and alpine slides.

The Alpine Slide is the ONLY revenue positive activity at Snow King (until this year with the Mountain Coaster). The skiing component had been subsidized to the tune of 500K a year, with the AS bringing in ~200k per year. They were well on their way until bankruptcy until (BILLIONAIRE) Max Chapman stepped in, spent 15 million in improvements in the last year. The Mountain Coaster will bring in ~2 million in it's first year. Skiing will continue to be subsidized by these summer activities.
No lift accessed biking yet, though...

 

[SkaredShtles]

The valuation of this sale are insanely low as well...

$1.5B value
2million skier visits per year

Vail only needs to see $75/skier visit to recoup costs within 10 years.

Interwest must have been at the point of defaulting on something major for their crown jewel to get sold so cheaply...

I believe Intrawest divested itself of Whistler-Blackcomb long ago...

 

[kidwoo]

The Alpine Slide is the ONLY revenue positive activity at Snow King

Nah

 

[jstuhlman]

The valuation of this sale are insanely low as well...

$1.5B value
2million skier visits per year

Vail only needs to see $75/skier visit to recoup costs within 10 years.

Interwest must have been at the point of defaulting on something major for their crown jewel to get sold so cheaply...

Interesting. Made me look up our closest large lift-served DH, Snowshoe, which, as far as I know, is still owned by Intrawest. Was surprised to see it's at almost 500K visitors per year for snow. also of interest - it originally was developed in the 1970s by . . . wait for it . . . a DENTIST. I'd be curious to see a pie chart of their non-ski season income. Was up there for opening weekend. Busy, but not booming. They have a mix of trails, mostly intermediate-level runs, I'd say. Some summer "camps," a golf course, a lake, a small zip line, and rentals for weddings, conferences, etc. With the appearance of upstarts like Bailey, near Asheville, a bit of growth at Beech and Massanutten, it'll be interesting to see what SS does, if anything, to up their game. There was talk of a lift-serviced place south of Brevard, but nothing's come of it yet. Surprised Wintergreen, which bills itself as a 4 season resort, hasn't done more.

 

[rideit]

Nah

Good point!
I happily forget about that shitshow....
That being said, they only recieve 10k from the snowdevils (who run the show) and then whatever they get from lift tickets. It is something, though. The town, OTOH, brings in millions during the event. It was a huge blow to town coffers when it was cancelled two years ago.

 

[marshalolson]

https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/~/media/Files/Investor-Relations/Q2-2015-Investor-Presentation.ashx

Summer ops at whistler is 15% of revenue. It is split between many endeavors, not just bikes

 

[kidwoo]

https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/~/media/Files/Investor-Relations/Q2-2015-Investor-Presentation.ashx

Summer ops at whistler is 15% of revenue. It is split between many endeavors, not just bikes

Wait skiing makes more money when they run 30 lifts vs. 3? This is my shocked face.

Yeah biking is hard and isn't pizza vs french fry.


But they did mention biking in the first bullet point


But mostly this:

What do you think northstar's is? What's the difference walking around those two places in the summer? Old fat dentists with dh bikes bro-ing down at longhorn for the first time since college. That's what.

All these resorts are talking about increasing summer activities. You can't walk around whistler and NOT notice the mountainbiker significant presence. Sucks no one else has a glacier and all but the bike component is something they can work to mimic. But no one's even come close.

 

[Jm_]

"more unique guests visits to Whistler Resort than in winter"=poor people.

 

[kidwoo]

"more unique guests visits to Whistler Resort than in winter"=poor people.

Oh come on, have you been to southwestern BC in the winter? It's either skiing at elevation or a heroin addiction at sea level. What to do every weekend is pretty obvious.

 

[jstuhlman]

Interesting . . . biking/summer activities a minimal role at SS, at least in discussions with homeowners there. http://www.snowshoemtn.com/footer/real-estate/homeowners/news-and-events/state-of-the-shoe.aspx

 

[Jm_]

Oh come on, have you been to southwestern BC in the winter? It's either skiing at elevation or a heroin addiction at sea level. What to do every weekend is pretty obvious.

This is how our local mountain generates revenue in the summer (but you have to attract a LOT of hippies to make any money:

Luckily a few of the management types really like DHing, but getting decent trails is still pulling teeth. They try, but not like other resorts try...

 

[Flo33]

It'll all be a moot point when VR goes Tango Uniform in 3 years.

More than enough time to invest heavily into puking bag comps, you say?

 

[kidwoo]

This is how our local mountain generates revenue in the summer (but you have to attract a LOT of hippies to make any money:View attachment 123057

.........slowly but steadily increases pressure on gas pedal, closing eyes in glorious hope for the future.................

 

[kickstand]

Interesting. Made me look up our closest large lift-served DH, Snowshoe, which, as far as I know, is still owned by Intrawest. Was surprised to see it's at almost 500K visitors per year for snow. also of interest - it originally was developed in the 1970s by . . . wait for it . . . a DENTIST. I'd be curious to see a pie chart of their non-ski season income. Was up there for opening weekend. Busy, but not booming. They have a mix of trails, mostly intermediate-level runs, I'd say. Some summer "camps," a golf course, a lake, a small zip line, and rentals for weddings, conferences, etc. With the appearance of upstarts like Bailey, near Asheville, a bit of growth at Beech and Massanutten, it'll be interesting to see what SS does, if anything, to up their game. There was talk of a lift-serviced place south of Brevard, but nothing's come of it yet. Surprised Wintergreen, which bills itself as a 4 season resort, hasn't done more.

What runs did you do? There's not much by way of expert level jump line, but there's a handful of gnarly natural shit, it's just that most people don't ride any of it and they've stopped maintaining/adding gnarly level natural shit....in favor of, greens and blues.

I've been a season pass holder there for the last few years, it has certainly catered more to the family riders in recent years with the installation of and grooming of trails.

They have made pretty big investments in both the trail system (dream weaver, easy street and skyline are all less than 3 or 4 years old) and the other stuff, they have a new zipline, they invested in a ton of inflatables down at the lake, paddle boards, etc. UTV rides, Segways, etc. they actually do a pretty good job of attracting all walks of life, I've never been there when it's dead.

I think they hurt themselves with the abandoning of their race series last year, the first race of the year had a pretty small turn out. Race weekends used to be crazy packed just a few years back.

It's always interesting to see what they do year over year. I like snowshoe better than Mountain Creek, but Mountain Creek has a huge following because it is so close to population, Snowshoe isn't close to anyone....

 

[jackalope]

Interesting. Made me look up our closest large lift-served DH, Snowshoe, which, as far as I know, is still owned by Intrawest. Was surprised to see it's at almost 500K visitors per year for snow. also of interest - it originally was developed in the 1970s by . . . wait for it . . . a DENTIST. I'd be curious to see a pie chart of their non-ski season income. Was up there for opening weekend. Busy, but not booming. They have a mix of trails, mostly intermediate-level runs, I'd say. Some summer "camps," a golf course, a lake, a small zip line, and rentals for weddings, conferences, etc. With the appearance of upstarts like Bailey, near Asheville, a bit of growth at Beech and Massanutten, it'll be interesting to see what SS does, if anything, to up their game. There was talk of a lift-serviced place south of Brevard, but nothing's come of it yet. Surprised Wintergreen, which bills itself as a 4 season resort, hasn't done more.

FWIW, I'd say Beech is making good headway in terms of improving DH options and the overall experience. It's not happening overnight to be sure, but they've made a big investment in the infrastructure there, which seems to be attracting a fair number of terrestrial bound belugas (i.e. the FUPA queens & their nautical belt/visor/boat shoe wearing feeding partners) stuffing themselves into liftchairs so they can drink beer/mayonnaise at the restaurant up top. They have plans to gradually improve/expand the trail system, and it sounds like they won't shy away from teh east coast rox™. Every now and then (when I'm drinking bourbon), I wonder if Sugar will get on the bandwagon since they're upgrading their lift, but based on the feedback I've heard from an "inside source", they give no fux about down cycles.

As for Wintergreen, that place used to be a very entertaining option, with plenty of sketch and short runs/fast lift. Love to see them give it another go, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[kidwoo]

I used to ski at beech and sugar. Given their *ahem* "winter" seasons, they'd be fools to not prioritize being a summer resort.







drinking mayonnaise

 

[jonKranked]

east coast in general is investing more and more in summer operations. snow making is expensive, and the real stuff is too unreliable. not only that, some years they are having longer summer seasons than winter.

 

[djjohnr]

Kidwoo-

Intrawest and Vail (and all the companies that are actually making any sort of profit) make the bulk of their revenue from owning the mountain facilities - restaurants, hotels etc. There's a good article on this that I haven't been able to dig up. Non-local summer visitation at any of the Tahoe resorts is likely a tough proposition, I'd guess at least in part because of how many of them there are. I don't see how N* (or any other Tahoe resort really) could pull off the kind of summer over-night stays they'd need to justify doing heavy bike park investment to their share holders. Whistler may be a little bit unique in that respect because even without the bike segment there are still a ton of people booking hotel rooms and going out to dinner in the restaurants during the summer.

 

[kidwoo]

I'm well aware of the real estate component. I've watched what happened to Kirkwood as they built mcmansions in place of their parking while their lifts caught on fire. It's like watching street vendors running around chasing tour buses. They don't do that if there's not a reason. And first and foremost, interest has always been a real estate company first. I've lived in a resort town for 15 years. I know how this works. This entire area is just one big continuing self sustaining real estate scam.

Look at this guy's ears perk up when looking to buy a house and he finds out a bike park exists there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tahoe/comments/4vnsxu/northstar_in_the_summer/?st=irp3zdl1&sh=028884cc

I'm not making some argument that a bike park turns an off season resort into Disney world. I've been a skier too long to believe that. But it's the resorts themselves going on and on about increasing summer operations. How many season passes you think whistler sells for ziplines vs. the bike park? Even northstar sells more bike tickets than ropes course tickets. The bike park thing can work. It just needs to be done right. Only a few here have even moved remotely in that direction. If winters were going to be getting longer, wetter, and colder, this wouldn't be a question. But...............

 

[jonKranked]

'woo (& other western monkies) my understanding is that the majority of resorts out west don't offer any sort of night skiing (or limited when they do) and rely purely on natural snowfall. is that correct?

 

[kidwoo]

'woo (& other western monkies) my understanding is that the majority of resorts out west don't offer any sort of night skiing (or limited when they do) and rely purely on natural snowfall. is that correct?

Sort of. Mammoth used to have lights but the way that pimple stands out on the horizon, it was obnoxious. So no more.

Squaw does some limited light skiing. Heavenly too. Boreal here definitely does...kind of a dinky little terrain park hill. One of the Hood resorts does. Don't know about some of the more metro seattle ones like Snoqualmie.

As far as natural snowfall, northstar and mammoth have spent a shit ton in snowmaking equipment. Northstar has these giant compressors that allow them to make snow at above freezing temps just based on creating a pressure gradient. They weren't fucking around. The drought years here kind of made those two places a lot more viable. But most of the resorts have some capacity for snowblowing. It's usually just early season to get it started if we haven't gotten dumped on by thanksgiving. Gotta get them holidays......

 

[SkaredShtles]

'woo (& other western monkies) my understanding is that the majority of resorts out west don't offer any sort of night skiing (or limited when they do) and rely purely on natural snowfall. is that correct?

Colorado info:

Night skiing: yeah - almost none of that out here. There is a *little* bit, but the resorts are too far from population centers to get any sort of "after-school" critical mass.

Snowmaking: only the tiny resorts don't make snow. Almost every area of any reasonable size has snowmaking.

 

[jonKranked]

ah, thanks for clearing up.

here on the ice coast, snowmaking and night skiing are pretty much both mandatory. i think there's only handful of places that don't have one or the other.

both things being expensive to operate, and having shorter winters, east coast resorts are all looking to boost summer attendance. part of me wonders if some of them are hesitant to invest heavily in bike operations due to the competition; more resorts in a smaller geographic region.

 

[kidwoo]

ah, thanks for clearing up.

here on the ice coast, snowmaking and night skiing are pretty much both mandatory. i think there's only handful of places that don't have one or the other.

both things being expensive to operate, and having shorter winters, east coast resorts are all looking to boost summer attendance. part of me wonders if some of them are hesitant to invest heavily in bike operations due to the competition; more resorts in a smaller geographic region.

It definitely seems like you guys have a of places running lifts for bikes. It's not nearly the same scale as what skiing already has going but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If it makes more downhillers/trail bike lift riders, that's more potential customers that are likely to visit your particular resort.

 

[jstuhlman]

What runs did you do?.

everything on the western territory and a bunch on the other side. far preferred the western territory stuff.

 

[mykel]

I like Snowshoe.
Was last there in 2012. Was hoping for a fall trip this year, but with the shit exchange we are Bromont bound instead.

We were there in late September. Trails were mint, weather was decent, lift lines were short - couldn't ask for better. What I liked was there is (was?) a nice mix of natural tech, some quite nasty in spots if you looked for the small dank hole in the wall openings - no names that I remember, just letters and numbers? These did not get huge amounts of work, just enough to make them a blast.

The flowy stuff was also fun, and not as smooth as I was expecting - not rough, but more embedded rock and roots left in that made it a bit more interesting. Some nice multiple line stuff as well, so not all of it is single line, single file.

No idea on the newer trails....but I hope they balance the revised colour palate with some more Black.

Hope to be back soon.

 

[djjohnr]

How many season passes you think whistler sells for ziplines vs. the bike park? Even northstar sells more bike tickets than ropes course tickets.

It's not about season passes or tickets though, it's about hotel room bookings/restaurant reservations. There's so much more competition for those things in Tahoe. If any resort up there could pull it off (given the actual desire to) my guess would be Heavenly.

 

[kidwoo]

It's not about season passes or tickets though, it's about hotel room bookings/restaurant reservations.

Right. I've never said otherwise. It's the idea that bikers don't spend money that's pretty much BS. You WILL get reservations and even property sales from a good, well done bike park. I know bike people here who have bought places in whistler. They sure didn't do it at northstar. I don't get where this assumption that bikers are dirtbags who don't spend money comes from. This isn't 1999 and everyone makes jokes about dentists for a reason. Bike manufacturers can make bikes for them but mountain managers can't give them a place to ride? That makes no sense. There are dirtbag skiers too but like I keep saying, take both of their moneyseses. They do it in the winter. And at least at the one resort in NA that people actually take vacations to, they do it there for bikes.

 

[djjohnr]

I think they know very well that we'll spend money, but probably have data that shows the bike segment alone isn't enough for summer profitability (given the cost), and that there are lower cost segments to chase first.

 

[rideit]

Not to mention that a lot of (western) ski areas are on FS land, making it much more difficult to develop, what with NEPAs and the like.

 

[kidwoo]

I think they know very well that we'll spend money, but probably have data that shows the bike segment alone isn't enough for summer profitability (given the cost), and that there are lower cost segments to chase first.

Horse shit park = horse shit data

Any internal data they've collected is useless because no one has really done it right here.

That's all I'm saying.

There's one place that is different. And it ain't sushi bars and ziplines that is the hugely obvious difference when you go there.

I've seen the numbers on alpine slides. My mouth is agape. I don't know if it's because I don't believe it or if I'm amazed that it's true.

 

[rideit]

And what is even more amazing is they run the same sleds on the same tracks for a 40-50 year life span. Just new wheels and brake plastic.

 

[kidwoo]

And what is even more amazing is they run the same sleds on the same tracks for a 40-50 year life span. Just new wheels and brake plastic.

Those repeat customer retards need bikes.

 

[Westy]

Interesting. Made me look up our closest large lift-served DH, Snowshoe, which, as far as I know, is still owned by Intrawest. Was surprised to see it's at almost 500K visitors per year for snow. also of interest - it originally was developed in the 1970s by . . . wait for it . . . a DENTIST. I'd be curious to see a pie chart of their non-ski season income. Was up there for opening weekend. Busy, but not booming. They have a mix of trails, mostly intermediate-level runs, I'd say. Some summer "camps," a golf course, a lake, a small zip line, and rentals for weddings, conferences, etc. With the appearance of upstarts like Bailey, near Asheville, a bit of growth at Beech and Massanutten, it'll be interesting to see what SS does, if anything, to up their game. There was talk of a lift-serviced place south of Brevard, but nothing's come of it yet. Surprised Wintergreen, which bills itself as a 4 season resort, hasn't done more.

Wintergreen's little bike park experiment was kind of sad. Not a lot of trails. Not a lot of riders. The direct surrounding area is very set in it's dentisty ways. Very few locals even checked it out. Most people drove in from DC/NorVA. Perhaps as a result of the limited trails the folks that did show up weren't the type of people you were going to make money on. No hotel rooms, no restaurants. They probably scared off an equal number of sightseers who were willing to spend money. They may have been able to make a few bucks if they installed a cigarette machine and onsite bail bonds.

Many of the folks who rode there were on the monkey. Most of them got banned because they were idiots. The shit-show that was the VA forum was a direct reflection on the scene there. No surprise they shut down bike operations after a short period.

 

[Jm_]

Right. I've never said otherwise. It's the idea that bikers don't spend money that's pretty much BS. You WILL get reservations and even property sales from a good, well done bike park.

IDK, as good as Keystone is, and it's pretty good, I would never bunk there, Breck makes 1000x more sense, so no matter how good the Keystone park is, I don't think they'll reap all the rewards. WP is a little better, there's not much else close-by. Breck in the summer time though is some sort of summer-play ground, pretty neat and I enjoyed it. Sure, very touristy, but if you are actually doing shit, IMO it's pretty enjoyable. Kind of like Tahoe.

 

[mykel]

I agree with 'woo.
I still canoe trip - you know backpack, canoe and see you in a week.
However, if I'm going on a bike vacation, I don't do the parking-lot camping.
I like a some amenities for when I'm not trying to destroy some random body part on the dh bike.
We will book a room at the resort, usually with a kitchenette.
Breakfast and lunch are done in room with groceries bought locally.
Dinner will be out in one of the resort restaurants.
Beers, again bought locally will be both in room and at one of the pubs.

 

[kidwoo]

IDK, as good as Keystone is, and it's pretty good, I would never bunk there,

I've ridden there, it's not that good for me to stay there either. But if it were that good (like 5 days good), I wouldn't hesitate a millisecond. I already do it, sometimes twice a year.

Just not there. Because what is there doesn't justify it.

 

[Jm_]

I've ridden there, it's not that good for me to stay there either. But if it were that good (like 5 days good), I wouldn't hesitate a millisecond. I already do it, sometimes twice a year.

Just not there. Because what is there doesn't justify it.

Well, it's a good mountain, but you need more than a good mountain IMO. Breck has tons of riding, tons of shops, tons of stuff to do, it's the true "summer destination" that pulls in money all the time. That was my point, just because you have a really good mountain isn't enough, will never be IMO. Some places are just too remote or don't offer enough over competitors.

 

[velocipedist]

WBP is wicked fun, but the valley trails plus bike park = whistler is the perception of many non rider legume evaluators, ergo why build gnar dh if we don't also have XYZ.. justifying their inaction.

I'm with woo , just because it hasn't been done stateside, means only that it hasn't been done not that it can't be done. Don't leave any money on the table , even if its beat down broken... Hell money on top doesn't change, they should cater to all the tables.

In the meantime thank you floating currency markets. The Northern Morthership beckons.

 

[Kurt_80]

Has anyone read the 2007 MBTA study? It was looking at the economic impact and I suppose the sustainability of Whistler Bike Park.

"Overall, household incomes among riders in Whistler are high........37% of Bike Park riders having household incomes in excess of $100,000".

Also:

"The most common age group of riders was the 30-39 category"

"90% of survey respondents were an overnight trip to Whistler"
and
"59% of respondents residing outside of Canada"


So, ultimately, we have older dudes with disposable cash coming to Whistler. To ride. It's a thing. I agree with the others, a "US Whistler" can be done, in fact it's a market waiting to be tapped. But ya gotta tap it just right. And having ridden Whistler vs (some) US bike parks, it hasn't been done right yet.