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the enemy within: our "friends" the saudis

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
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from the center for religious freedom:

WASHINGTON, DC, January 28, 2005- Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom released today a new report exposing the dissemination of hate propaganda in America by the government of Saudi Arabia.

The 89-page report, “Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques,” is based on a year-long study of over two hundred original documents, all disseminated, published or otherwise generated by the government of Saudi Arabia and collected from more than a dozen mosques in the United States.

The propagation of hate ideology by Saudi Arabia is known to be worldwide, but its occurrence within the United States has received scant attention until now. Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology are a distinct minority, as is evident by the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors.

The report concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a “totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence,” and the fact that it is “being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention.” The report finds: “Not only does the government of Saudi Arabia not have a right – under the First Amendment or any other legal document – to spread hate ideology within U.S. borders, it is committing a human rights violation by doing so.” now there's a shocker

Such publications that “advocate an ideology of hatred have no place in a nation founded on religious freedom and toleration,” write James Woolsey ex-cia director woolsey???, chairman of the board of Freedom House, in the foreword to the report.

Among the key findings of the report:

· Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

· The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

· The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. For example, a document in the collection for the “Immigrant Muslim” bears the words “Greetings from the Cultural Attache in Washington, D.C.” of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia, and is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. In an authoritative religious voice, it gives detailed instructions on how to “hate” the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel;

· One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one Saudi embassy-distributed book, published by the Saudi Air Force, responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.” Since, under Saudi law, “apostates” from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;

· Sufi and Shiite Muslims are viciously condemned;


· For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect’s sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government’s Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, “it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money;”

· Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”

· Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

· Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;

The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”

The research, translation and principle analysis of the materials for the report were carried out by both Muslims and non-Muslims who wish to remain anonymous for reasons of security. Some 90 percent of the publications are in Arabic; two independent translators reviewed each Arabic document. This project was undertaken after many Muslims requested the Center’s help in exposing Saudi extremism in the hope of freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.

full 89 page report


and this in the same week they pump the price of oil up.

changleen, if you're "out there", do explain this culture's point of view, & how i should be understanding to it. i'm sure you have a ready defense.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
:nuts:

World oil market is oversupplied - Algerian minister
AFP: 1/28/2005

VIENNA, Jan 28 (AFP) - The world oil market is oversupplied and OPEC will be looking at demand from China and supply from Iraq in order to determine whether to cut production or keep quotas steady, Algerian Oil Minister Chakib Khelil said Friday.

"We have an oversupply of at least a million (barrels per day). We have stock levels which are above the average of last year, and of course, we have a lot of specualtion which has led to high prices," Khelil said as he arrived in Vienna for a meeting Sunday of the 11-nation Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries.

"We have two concerns for the next quarter, which is demand from China and supply from Iraq. If you can tell me what's going to happen for those two, I can tell you what we're going to do," Khelil said.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Ripped from today's news....

Link Saudi agent to Qaeda plotters
DAILY NEWS | February 1st | JAMES GORDON MEEK | LINK

WASHINGTON - The FBI last year quietly nabbed a Saudi military official who had ties to Al Qaeda - just after he finished training in this country with the U.S. Air Force, the Daily News has learned.

The Saudi allegedly had knowledge of Al Qaeda safe houses and plans in the kingdom, intelligence sources said.

FBI agents stopped and quizzed the suspect and his family at a U.S. airport as they were leaving the country. The military man was allowed to return to Saudi Arabia, where he was detained and interrogated further, sources said.

As a result, arrests of other Al Qaeda operatives were made overseas, sources said.

"An Al Qaeda sympathizer who was in the Saudi military was here in training," said a senior U.S. official briefed on the case. "There were some significant rollups because of this."

The FBI discovered the man's ties to Al Qaeda and brought in Air Force Office of Special Investigations agents because he had attended one of the service's schools, the sources said.

Saudi Embassy officials in Washington did not return calls seeking comment yesterday.

The incident was disclosed in an OSI publication in a year-end column written by the group's commander, Air Force Brig. Gen. Eric Patterson.

"We spearheaded a successful anti-terrorism operation with the FBI, which identified an active Al Qaeda sympathizer who attended training at an Air Force technical school," Patterson wrote in Global Reliance magazine, a bimonthly read by OSI agents.

"We have since established a process to screen and monitor activities of foreign students to focus on early discovery of other possible penetrations. In addition to capturing that Al Qaeda member in the United States, 51 others were arrested overseas," Patterson wrote.

Other sources expressed skepticism that the number eventually collared was as many as Patterson claimed.

An OSI spokesman wouldn't say what type of Air Force training the Saudi officer got, but confirmed that an identified Al Qaeda sympathizer "was sent back to the host nation."

"Saudi Arabia continues to be the single biggest producer and fund-raiser of terror," said Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-Brooklyn, Queens) after learning of the case from a News reporter. "When will we learn?"
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Echo said:
This is the sort of thing Changleen ignores because he knows it makes him look like an idiot.
This is the sort of thing Changleen ignores because he knows it's essentially racist propaganda disguised as news. :thumb:
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Amazing the Saudis are a problem now. I understand that it was hard to recognize that, since 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi...
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
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This is all pretty much old news, yet no president, D or R, has ever done anything about it... In the meantime, we focus our military effort on relative non-threats for perceived strategic gain, cloaking it in whatever language is expedient for the moment.

The Saudi government does a pretty sinister dance with the Wahabist muslims; it has to endorse them to the point that they don't mobilize as a domestic threat, yet it has to clamp down on them enough to make a show for Washington. Meanwhile, all they want to do is take their oil money and live lives of decadence (by any religious or moral standard) and ease, while governing in a fairly autocratic and unpopular fashion. This in turn helps the Wahabists draw more of the average Saudi population to their cause.

Still, looking at Wahabism as Islam itself is like looking at Christian-themed white power groups as the model for Christianity. The difference is that the Wahabists aren't really that much of a fringe group anymore, and even if the majority of muslims aren't card-carrying Wahabists, they're beginning to sympathize more and more with the extremes, even if they aren't exactly ready to pick up a rifle themselves. The US has meanwhile gone on to give the Wahabists plenty of grist for the hate-mill.

Why don't we free the Saudi people from their oppressors, too? Hmm, that's right, they'd freely elect a Wahabist theocracy.


MD
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
They also have that nasty habit of exporting Wahabism. It's a nice pressure relief valve for the royal family.

And they seem to be a bit better at it than we are at exporting democracy.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Silver said:
They also have that nasty habit of exporting Wahabism. It's a nice pressure relief valve for the royal family.

And they seem to be a bit better at it than we are at exporting democracy.
Maybe that's because Wahabists (sic?) actually believe in what they're doing, where as those doing the exporting of 'democracy' have ulterior motives which are pretty much it's opposite?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Silver said:
They also have that nasty habit of exporting Wahabism. It's a nice pressure relief valve for the royal family.

And they seem to be a bit better at it than we are at exporting democracy.

Perhaps we should enlist democracy freedom fighters, strap bombs on them and drop 'em off at crowded market places in the MidEast...?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Not everyone who wants to export democracy has ulterior motives.

Frankly, I'd love it if democracy flourished all over the world. I just think that being a good example is a lot more productive than shoving a gun into someone's face and yelling, "Be democratic, or I'll kill you!"
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
N8 said:
:nuts:

World oil market is oversupplied - Algerian minister
AFP: 1/28/2005
What are you, bitter that stinkle proved it's possible to post news article that's actually interesting, thus nullifying your raison d'etre?

Don't hijack his shizzy with this unrelated crap... sit back and take some notes.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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N8 said:
Perhaps we should enlist democracy freedom fighters, strap bombs on them and drop 'em off at crowded market places in the MidEast...?
Thus further legitimising the thing you wish to supress? You republicans really aren't too good at thinking things through.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Silver said:
Not everyone who wants to export democracy has ulterior motives.

Frankly, I'd love it if democracy flourished all over the world. I just think that being a good example is a lot more productive than shoving a gun into someone's face and yelling, "Be democratic, or I'll kill you!"
For sure.
 

mack

Turbo Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
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Colorado
Ive said it before and ill say it again.


The Saudi Government is stuck in the stone age. 21 st century folks, yet they still have Asyrian 1400BC laws...


Although our laws are based on a 2k YO bible somewhat, they arent even in the same catergory.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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mack said:
Ive said it before and ill say it again.


The Saudi Government is stuck in the stone age. 21 st century folks, yet they still have Asyrian 1400BC laws...


Although our laws are based on a 2k YO bible somewhat, they arent even in the same catergory.
I'd say the government themselves are pretty far from the stoneage. SUVs, widescreen TVs, huge luxury motorboats, hot and cold running playmates, you name it. They'd probably put 99.9% of Americans to shame... The laws that they use to govern their people on the other hand, could certainly use a makeover...
 

mack

Turbo Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
3,674
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Colorado
Changleen said:
I'd say the government themselves are pretty far from the stoneage. SUVs, widescreen TVs, huge luxury motorboats, hot and cold running playmates, you name it. They'd probably put 99.9% of Americans to shame... The laws that they use to govern their people on the other hand, could certainly use a makeover...
You mean .05% lives like that... The rest of the population isnt so well off. Only princes and oil tycoons (aka princes who are smart).
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Changleen said:
I'd say the government themselves are pretty far from the stoneage. SUVs, widescreen TVs, huge luxury motorboats, hot and cold running playmates, you name it. They'd probably put 99.9% of Americans to shame... The laws that they use to govern their people on the other hand, could certainly use a makeover...
Well not in Saudia Arabia they don't, but the Saudi's do go to Baharain on the weekends for their "playtime". One thing you didn't mention was all the forgien workers they bring in to do everything. The Saudi gov't keeps their passports when you enter the country and the Saudi laws are such that if you're in something as minor as say a traffic accident with a Saudi even if it's the Saudi's fault you, the forgiener, go to jail.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
mack said:
The Saudi Government . . . still have Asyrian 1400BC laws...

Although our laws are based on a 2k YO bible somewhat, they arent even in the same catergory.
Which Assyrian 1400BC laws are you talking about? Or did you just make up a gibberish "fact" to justify your attempt to belittle the Saudi Government and their ways?

Code of Hammurabi is an 18 century BC (Old Babylonian Period) law code from present day Iraq. Get your facts straight, Mach.

Under King Hammurabi's 40 years of reign with his astute diplomacy and military leadership Babylonia thrived. Maybe the benevolent dictatorship is a better form of government, even today, than 21st century variety of "democracy" GB is trying to spread.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
enkidu said:
Which Assyrian 1400BC laws are you talking about? Or did you just make up a gibberish "fact" to justify your attempt to belittle the Saudi Government and their ways?

Code of Hammurabi is an 18 century BC (Old Babylonian Period) law code from present day Iraq. Get your facts straight, Mach.

Under King Hammurabi's 40 years of reign with his astute diplomacy and military leadership Babylonia thrived. Maybe the benevolent dictatorship is a better form of government, even today, than 21st century variety of "democracy" GB is trying to spread.
And the further point, which I was actually going to keep my mouth shut on, is that it's shariah, not ancient Babylonian or Assyrian law (except inasmuch as they contributed to the Koran), which is the basis for most Middle Eastern government today.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
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Feeling the lag
MikeD said:
And the further point, which I was actually going to keep my mouth shut on, is that it's shariah, not ancient Babylonian or Assyrian law (except inasmuch as they contributed to the Koran), which is the basis for most Middle Eastern government today.
Most Middle Eastern government? Maybe Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran and some others but not Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon and some others (I have not included non Arabic states 'cos I assumed you meant Arab states only).

Dunno whether most are Shariat but plenty aren't
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
fluff said:
Dunno whether most are Shariat but plenty aren't
Even if they're not shariah theocracies, their laws are still based on the Koran, just like America's and the Uk's are based on the Old Testament. I didn't meant to say they all were truly shariat, just based in Islamic law. Which, of course, doesn't make them fundamentally very different from Western powers when you get down to it...the Bible and the Koran are pretty similar. (and before the quotemongers start throwing down 'the Koran is evil and promotes hatred' quotes, we should all remember that the Bible is no different in places... Like Andyman says, it's all about interpretation and focus.)

Edit: I said "Middle Eastern" to include Iran, which isn't Arab, but still obviously pertinent to the discussion. I should have found a better term to exclude, obviously, Israel...

Edit again: And just because Saudi Arabia would claim to be a shariah state doesn't mean it actually is...it's more of a dictatorship or monarchy with the trappings of shariah to serve the purposes of those in powe. The wahabists certainly don't think it's true shariah, and would love to change it.

MD
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
MikeD said:
Even if they're not shariah theocracies, their laws are still based on the Koran, just like America's and the Uk's are based on the Old Testament.
Is it still a crime to covet my neighbour's ass?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
fluff said:
You can't change horses mid-stream...
But you don't want to fence yourself in, either. There's a range of topics to discuss.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
MikeD said:
(and before the quotemongers start throwing down 'the Koran is evil and promotes hatred' quotes, we should all remember that the Bible is no different in places... Like Andyman says, it's all about interpretation and focus.)
Context, context, context........................... :thumb:
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Interesting tid-bit...

44 people died in Iraq on election day
8 of those were sucide bombers
7 of the bombers were Saudi and the other was a Down's Syndrome Iraqi child
 
E

enkidu

Guest
fluff said:
Most Middle Eastern government? Maybe Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran and some others but not Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon and some others (I have not included non Arabic states 'cos I assumed you meant Arab states only).

Dunno whether most are Shariat but plenty aren't
Ba'th regime had a charter based on "socialism, democracy and economic development" since 1973 (http://www.angelfire.com/nt/Gilgamesh/68.html).

In 1978 - 79 Baghdad Museum and the University had day care facilities for scholars with young children. Women certainly were not forced to wear the traditional muslim veiled clothes. There was a rule to free illiterate (domestic and factory) workers from their work at 4 (?)pm to assembled at local primary schools to learn how to read and write free of charge.

It is not as if Iraqis are not capable of building their own modern society.

Megalomaniac Saddam Hussein, ten years of economic sanctions and wars, especially the present one, are keeping them from realizing their dreams.

Thoughts of their ancient civilization sustain them at this time of hardship and humiliation.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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I think this forum in general could use a little more factual information about the background of Iraq pre-1991.
 

mack

Turbo Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
3,674
0
Colorado
enkidu said:
Which Assyrian 1400BC laws are you talking about? Or did you just make up a gibberish "fact" to justify your attempt to belittle the Saudi Government and their ways?

Code of Hammurabi is an 18 century BC (Old Babylonian Period) law code from present day Iraq. Get your facts straight, Mach.

Under King Hammurabi's 40 years of reign with his astute diplomacy and military leadership Babylonia thrived. Maybe the benevolent dictatorship is a better form of government, even today, than 21st century variety of "democracy" GB is trying to spread.
Hammurabi's code is Babylonian/Assyrian smartass.

I cant believe you said that. heres a law from Hammurabi's law that should make you feel stupid for comparing it to democracy.

"If it be a slave that has been killed, he shall pay one third of mina of silver."

Wow, putting a price on human life, even the Hebrews laws werent/arent that bad.

"If a man has commited incense with his daughter, that man shall be banished from the city." wow thats a harsh one. :rolleyes:


Source: "Babylonian and Assyrian laws, contracts and letters."

By C.H.W. Johns...

Their laws are a mix of Assyrian and Hittite.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Changleen said:
I think this forum in general could use a little more factual information about the background of Iraq pre-1991.
OK, the following is the eye-witness account of a researcher who stayed there for four months. Anecdotal, but factual, nevertheless.

"In 1978 - 79 Baghdad Museum and the University had day care facilities for scholars with young children. Women certainly were not forced to wear the traditional muslim veiled clothes. There was a rule to free illiterate (domestic and factory) workers from their work at 4 (?)pm to assembled at local primary schools to learn how to read and write free of charge.

It is not as if Iraqis are not capable of building their own modern society."
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,895
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enkidu said:
OK, the following is the eye-witness account of a researcher who stayed there for four months. Anecdotal, but factual, nevertheless.

"In 1978 - 79 Baghdad Museum and the University had day care facilities for scholars with young children. Women certainly were not forced to wear the traditional muslim veiled clothes. There was a rule to free illiterate (domestic and factory) workers from their work at 4 (?)pm to assembled at local primary schools to learn how to read and write free of charge.

It is not as if Iraqis are not capable of building their own modern society."
I wasn't having a go - I was supporting your interjection of local experience. There is very little of it here, and what is held in it's place is often ignorance and prejudice.