[Toshi]

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_09_13/article.html

While the United States is keeping an eye on Iran’s nuclear progress, there is another country watching even more closely. Israel, feeling the most threatened by Iran’s march towards nuclear competency, is reportedly preparing a repeat of its 1981 raid on Iraq’s nuclear facility at Osirak. With about 140,000 American troops in neighboring Iraq, chances that the U.S. will intervene militarily are slim, making it all the more probable that Israel will feel it has to act unilaterally.

According to a recent report, Israel has built replicas of Iran’s nuclear facilities in the Negev Desert, where their fighter-bombers have been practicing test runs for months. Israel realizes it has a small window of opportunity if it is to take out Iran’s nuclear facilities before they go “hot” and leakage from an attack causes harmful exposure to tens of thousands of civilians caught by radiation forced into the atmosphere by such a raid.

Israel is unlikely to accept Iran’s word that its nuclear program is meant solely for peaceful purposes and aimed at developing commercial energy. The possibility of decisive military action is, indeed, high.

What follows is the unfolding of a worst-case scenario, an imaginary yet all-too-possible depiction of how events might develop if Israel were to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities.

[...]

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_09_13/article.html

read the article! i've had these thoughts for a few years, but now i'm becoming more convinced that an all-out war is the only way the middle east situation will be "resolved" in the near future. if the u.s. somehow would avoid condemnation of israel even if they (in this hypothetical war) struck first and/or used nuclear weapons in battle then widespread public outcry might finally prompt a long-overdue change in policy...

another note: this article is from american conservative magazine. note that some conservatives can and do disagree strongly with the neocon policies of gwb's administration.

 

[Westy]

read the article! i've had these thoughts for a few years, but now i'm becoming more convinced that an all-out war is the only way the middle east situation will be "resolved" in the near future. if the u.s. somehow would avoid condemnation of israel even if they (in this hypothetical war) struck first and/or used nuclear weapons in battle then widespread public outcry might finally prompt a long-overdue change in policy...

Scary stuff, but somehow I don't see the US ever changing our policy with Israel, no matter how bad they sh!t in their own sandbox.

another note: this article is from american conservative magazine. note that some conservatives can and do disagree strongly with the neocon policies of gwb's administration.

Those conservative obviously hate America

 

[Toshi]

Scary stuff, but somehow I don't see the US ever changing our policy with Israel, no matter how bad they sh!t in their own sandbox.

that's the thing. i feel that israel going nuclear in battle would be about the only thing that the u.s. couldn't just ignore and let dissipate.

Those conservative obviously hate America

 

[Toshi]

i enjoy stirring the pot in various forums, and elsewhere i was just accused of being an al qaeda member.

(i'm spiky_dog on that board -- it's the only board i don't use my real name on, and probably with good reason, too)

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227298

 

[fluff]

i enjoy stirring the pot in various forums, and elsewhere i was just accused of being an al qaeda member.

(i'm spiky_dog on that board -- it's the only board i don't use my real name on, and probably with good reason, too)

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227298

izzat sum kinda redneck yeehah forum?

 

[Toshi]

no, it's a mac message board, so assuming they're a statistically representative group the participants are probably better off and more educated than average. this particular board has a strong pro-israeli tilt, however, due to many vociferous members hailing from israel and the nyc region, including a notorious moderator.

 

[LordOpie]

more educated = pro-israel?

 

[Toshi]

heh, nice implication there opie. i'd argue that support for israel is more likely to be fueled by emotion or religion than rationality...

 

[Silver]

more educated = pro-israel?

Mac Dick = elitist prick = pro-israel?

 

[manimal]

all problems would be solved if america would institute mandatory military service at 18 as israel does. think about it....they're small but seriously bad-a$$

....but unfortunately....it'll never happen

 

[Toshi]

all problems would be solved if america would institute mandatory military service at 18 as israel does. think about it....they're small but seriously bad-a$$

....but unfortunately....it'll never happen

i agree that israel's military does seem quite skilled at killing people. but i have my qualms, namely the use of missile strikes and the imfamous cell phone bomb. this aside from other non-military gripes such as the wall, bulldozing and the thorny issue of the settlements.

actually now that i think of it the cell phone bomb was about as targeted of a killing as one could ask for (as in limited civilian casualties) and the target certainly had been active in bombmaking himself so i retract it from my above list of why-israel-is-military-proficient-but-still-objectionable.

 

[Toshi]

what would be more interesting is to ask whether america would be better off if people could only vote if they had served in the military. robert heinlein asked just this in starship troopers, an excellent book (and amusing yet not-really-related movie).

 

[Westy]

all problems would be solved if america would institute mandatory military service at 18 as israel does. think about it....they're small but seriously bad-a$$

....but unfortunately....it'll never happen

So you are saying a conscripted army would be more affected than a proffesional one? Or do you just think that forcing everyone into service would just make everyone think the same way?

 

[fluff]

It's interesting that everyone sees Israel's military as nigh on invincible when certain events have shown that they do have vulnerabilities (initial stages of 1973 war and the Lebanon).

Aside from that I'm sure that even countries with mandatory national service have problems...

 

[Jesus]

So you are saying a conscripted army would be more affected than a proffesional one? Or do you just think that forcing everyone into service would just make everyone think the same way?

Good question. I can't tell you what Manimal's reasoning is behind the statement, but I agree with him that military service be mandatory. On the basis that you "usually" tend to be more conservative if you have spent time in battle.

I for one could care less about someone's socio-economic situation when they are shooting at me.

 

[Westy]

Good question. I can't tell you what Manimal's reasoning is behind the statement, but I agree with him that military service be mandatory. On the basis that you "usually" tend to be more conservative if you have spent time in battle.

I for one could care less about someone's socio-economic situation when they are shooting at me.

I am not so sure that spending time in the military would make someone more conservative, I just think that a volunteer military attracts more conservative types.

As long as the military can fill its ranks with volunteers I think mandatory service is a bad idea. A conscripted army would just not be as effective as a volunteer one. Nothing promotes teamwork when half of the people don't want to be there.

 

[Jesus]

Nothing promotes teamwork when half of the people don't want to be there.

Good point. But why not give the "I don't want to be here" types administrative or foodservice/supply duties.

 

[Toshi]

It's interesting that everyone sees Israel's military as nigh on invincible when certain events have shown that they do have vulnerabilities (initial stages of 1973 war and the Lebanon).

nuclear weapons change the balance of power significantly when in the hands of a regime bloodthirsty enough to use them

 

[Westy]

Good point. But why not give the "I don't want to be here" types administrative or foodservice/supply duties.

Most of the military jobs are support roles, but those are also very important. Can a force fight well if it tanks keep breaking down, the food sucks and they keep getting shipped the wrong ammo?

 

[MikeD]

Most of the military jobs are support roles, but those are also very important. Can a force fight well if it tanks keep breaking down, the food sucks and they keep getting shipped the wrong ammo?

Not only that, but there really aren't noncombatant roles anymore (if there ever were.)

Join the military, expect to fight as some point. And if you want to live, you should be good at it. Simple as that.

MD

 

[Westy]

Not only that, but there really aren't noncombatant roles anymore (if there ever were.)

Join the military, expect to fight as some point. And if you want to live, you should be good at it. Simple as that.

MD

You mean our enemies aren't going to congregate in lines so we can kill them with remote controlled toys? Thats right, they were watching CNN in 1991 and realized it was a bad move. Too bad the military didn't figure that one out.

 

[llkoolkeg]

So you are saying a conscripted army would be more affected than a proffesional one? Or do you just think that forcing everyone into service would just make everyone think the same way?

I also think it is a good idea. Obviously, some citizens have moral objections to bearing arms or should frankly not be trusted with them, so alternative service options should be available: Red Cross, Peace Corps, pointy stick patrol, etc. The volunteer professional force would be the "A" troops for each service: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard. The conscripted one would populate the JV team: National Guard, Reserves, Civil Defense, Merchant Marine, etc. Forcing everyone into service would give them all a new perspective on discipline, community, race and gender relations and a host of other benefits...IMO.

 

[Westy]

I also think it is a good idea. Obviously, some citizens have moral objections to bearing arms or should frankly not be trusted with them, so alternative service options should be available: Red Cross, Peace Corps, pointy stick patrol, etc. The volunteer professional force would be the "A" troops for each service: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard. The conscripted one would populate the JV team: National Guard, Reserves, Civil Defense, Merchant Marine, etc. Forcing everyone into service would give them all a new perspective on discipline, community, race and gender relations and a host of other benefits...IMO.

So the people who would be good at soldiering could be soldier, the morons could be government janitors and the good athletes could be part of the national XXX team. Sounds like a good idea, I think the Soviets tried that one out, maybe we should ask them how it went.

 

[manimal]

So you are saying a conscripted army would be more affected than a proffesional one? Or do you just think that forcing everyone into service would just make everyone think the same way?

sorry, that was a bit of a blanket statement that didn't have much to do with the initial argument. a professional, volunteer, military is obviously the better choice but it's hard to deny the social and economic benefits of mandatory military service. more highly disciplined and educated workforce, possible college bennies from the government for service......lower crime rate and health insurance premiums. it would also be a daunting task for another country to invade knowing that every househould has at least 1 militarily trained subject inside. any given person could fall into ranks if called on having at least the basic knowledge of how the system works.

 

[manimal]

Nothing promotes teamwork when half of the people don't want to be there.

dude...have you ever been in the military? seriously, everybody doesn't want to be there. it's part of the job, that's how the leadership knows if something is wrong....people stop complaining. i think they insert a gripe chip in your brain during basic. everyone loves to claim military service until it's time to clean things

 

[Toshi]

it's hard to deny the social and economic benefits of mandatory military service

so move to israel and read your heinlein there