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THE FUCKING POWER METER THREAD

jonKranked

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did my FTP test. of course there's a known bug in the kinetic fit android app that it sometimes doesn't automatically calculate FTP - which is exactly what happened to me. thankfully, it the app could export it as a CSV file, and i was able to calculate it from there. FTP of 245 watts. not too shabby.
 

rideit

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Aug 24, 2004
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did my FTP test. of course there's a known bug in the kinetic fit android app that it sometimes doesn't automatically calculate FTP - which is exactly what happened to me. thankfully, it the app could export it as a CSV file, and i was able to calculate it from there. FTP of 245 watts. not too shabby.
20 minute test?
 

Sandwich

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Yes and yes.

The kinetic ftp test also does 3x ramp up and a 5 minute all out effort prior to the 20 minute effort. I can post the profile later.

Max output during the test was 440.
Nice work! Couple questions, looks like you’re doing a ton of miles according to garmin connect- are those all trainer miles? Second, y u no Strava? Either way good work
 

CrabJoe StretchPants

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Nov 30, 2003
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did my FTP test. of course there's a known bug in the kinetic fit android app that it sometimes doesn't automatically calculate FTP - which is exactly what happened to me. thankfully, it the app could export it as a CSV file, and i was able to calculate it from there. FTP of 245 watts. not too shabby.
Slouch


You have a power meter gizmo?
 

jonKranked

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Nice work! Couple questions, looks like you’re doing a ton of miles according to garmin connect- are those all trainer miles? Second, y u no Strava? Either way good work
There's been snow on the ground since the beginning of February, and not the kind I can ride in. So conditions have limited me to indoor.

And yes, no strava. Hated it before they put features behind a paywall.

Slouch


You have a power meter gizmo?

I have a kinetic road machine trainer. Got it in like 2010 or 2011. They offer their inride sensor ie a Bluetooth power meter for the trainer, it was a $50 add on to the trainer.
 

Toshi

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Oct 23, 2001
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A more practical guide on DFA a1's utility:

The Polar H7 strap I ordered comes recommended and validated by the HRV app developer.
Said strap arrived today and I had time before my 5-10 PM shift to hop on the bike (again--already did a 45 minute top of zone 1 120 bpm spin this morning) and do a DFA alpha 1 test.

Recall that one is shooting for DFA alpha 1 > 0.75, as that point corresponds to LT1. Over 0.75 and you are aerobic.

Anyway, if you're bored here's the tweet with screenshots but the long and short of it is that I switch over this point at about 134 bpm and 190-200W, which is 78% MHR (low zone 3) and 62-65% FTP (mid zone 2). Kind of a fun thing to play with, approximating lactate levels when none of us have a lab and an IV in to do such tests in real life.
 
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Sandwich

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There's been snow on the ground since the beginning of February, and not the kind I can ride in. So conditions have limited me to indoor.

And yes, no strava. Hated it before they put features behind a paywall.




I have a kinetic road machine trainer. Got it in like 2010 or 2011. They offer their inride sensor ie a Bluetooth power meter for the trainer, it was a $50 add on to the trainer.
I’m not going to admonish you for riding indoors. I hate winter riding. Roads are narrower, covered in salt, trails are soft or icy. Either way it’s cold af and crashing hurts more. I’d rather buy more good summer gear than terrible winter gear for double the price. So I get it, was just curious
 

jonKranked

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I’m not going to admonish you for riding indoors. I hate winter riding. Roads are narrower, covered in salt, trails are soft or icy. Either way it’s cold af and crashing hurts more. I’d rather buy more good summer gear than terrible winter gear for double the price. So I get it, was just curious
Oh I ride outside in the winter when conditions permit, but this February we've had snow on the ground literally the entire month (which is the longest since I moved back to PA). Conditions just haven't been good unless you have a fat bike (and even then it was marginal from what I heard). Winter riding gear is pricey sure, but you'll get more years out of it because the season for it here is shorter.

Regarding the trainer, I've had it almost a decade and have used it regularly, worth the investment imo.
 

Toshi

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Capture.PNG


followed by chasing DFA alpha 1 > 0.75 in a recovery ride, clearly ignoring the called out zones for this purpose



Rough correlation between these heart rate values:



and these DFA alpha 1 values:



finally, a close up of that exuberant peak in the first rep of the last set of the first ride, if you will:



Ok, enough difficult-to-comprehend charts. Takeaway points:

- even with my zone 2 for zone 3 substitution in the second work block (as I do as a rule these days) this was a hard ride
- I will check my heart rate variability tomorrow to see if this tough effort dropped it, and if so will do an easy (== DFA alpha 1 > 0.75) ride tomorrow evening
- the ride itself changed my thresholds, in that to maintain that same > 0.75 level on the metric in my recovery ride today I needed to be about 7 bpm and 80-90W (!) lower than to maintain that same level yesterday on totally fresh legs

Do I find these extra data to add to my experience? Actually, yes. Power and heart rate zones are pretty crude/general guidelines. Riding to my daily aerobic threshold tolerance (when aiming to do so instead of beating myself up with intervals as was the plan today) is infinitely more tailored to me.
 

Toshi

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You’re just showing off that you’re a 1.5kW human. ;)
The instructor says to empty the tank for the last set! I can only do that after the recovery block. Creatine kinase depleted at that point.
 

Changleen

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Jan 9, 2004
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For scale:

Human: 1.5kW peak
Toyota Corolla 1.4: 71kW peak
Bugatti Chiron SS: 1.2MW peak
F9 rocket: 29GW peak, inc heat, light, noise, other inefficiencies, probably ~9GW peak in ‘thrust’ as it were.
Three Gourges Dam: 22.5GW continuous
The Sun (Sol): 3.9 x 10^26W continuous
 

Sandwich

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OK, so @Toshi do you find that the DFA stuff is helping you to improve? It seems interesting, but as I am like 17 steps behind I don't know if I want to add yet another factor. Heart rate was new to me 2y ago. Power is new to me 2w ago. I may as well chase whatever metrics will be best, but I also don't need to add more confusion at this point. I'm finding that with effective power zone training, I am "working" a lot harder, and my sessions produce more sweat and also more cursing, even when targeting zone 2/3. I'm looking forward to seeing power during interval trainings.
 

Toshi

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Yeah, I think it is useful. Under my current regimen rides either should be easy or intervals.

Easy, in turn, should be whatever intensity results in staying above 0.75 on DFA alpha 1, of which zone 2 was a rough approximation. No zone 3 for me!

Intervals are pretty self-explanatory because intensity dictates duration––you can't schedule a 4 minute zone 7 interval (unless your zones are totally wrong!), etc.
 

I Are Baboon

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Aug 6, 2001
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View attachment 157252

followed by chasing DFA alpha 1 > 0.75 in a recovery ride, clearly ignoring the called out zones for this purpose



Rough correlation between these heart rate values:



and these DFA alpha 1 values:



finally, a close up of that exuberant peak in the first rep of the last set of the first ride, if you will:



Ok, enough difficult-to-comprehend charts. Takeaway points:

- even with my zone 2 for zone 3 substitution in the second work block (as I do as a rule these days) this was a hard ride
- I will check my heart rate variability tomorrow to see if this tough effort dropped it, and if so will do an easy (== DFA alpha 1 > 0.75) ride tomorrow evening
- the ride itself changed my thresholds, in that to maintain that same > 0.75 level on the metric in my recovery ride today I needed to be about 7 bpm and 80-90W (!) lower than to maintain that same level yesterday on totally fresh legs

Do I find these extra data to add to my experience? Actually, yes. Power and heart rate zones are pretty crude/general guidelines. Riding to my daily aerobic threshold tolerance (when aiming to do so instead of beating myself up with intervals as was the plan today) is infinitely more tailored to me.
*eyes gloss over*
 

Toshi

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Oct 23, 2001
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Recovery ride, DFA alpha 1 style. At the beginning I could only pull about 124 bpm and 150W and stay aerobic. By the end more like 130 bpm and 190-200W, so near baseline.
 

Toshi

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9EECD8AD-96D6-42E0-B342-3F7EF0ECD5E5.jpeg
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Hard interval ride followed by another 45 minute block where I just chased the aerobic threshold and no more, which worked out to be fairly low after the first ride’s stresses.
 

Full Trucker

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Put a cadence sensor on my indoor gravel bike... now Zwift just yells at me to spin faster all the dang time.

:panic:

My FTP and other whatnot is still sucky... even at my current level the workouts on Zwift are real difficult. Wondering if my FTP got set too high, that's how difficult they are. Also, maybe because I've tapered off on riding due to ski trips and eating spoiled hummus...

:think:
 

jonKranked

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my new garmin (edge 830) can pickup the power meter sensor for my kinetic trainer. that combined with the speed, cadence, and HR have opened up a bunch of new metrics for training. am gonna need to take a deep dive into figuring it out, and start working to get in better shape (aka less fat)

nerd stats:

1615563462035.png


1615563472898.png
 
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Toshi

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How did it set your FTP, Jon? That is a very high figure fwiw. Average and 20 min power are certainly within reason as is HR and seem calculated from sensor data as opposed to the FTP.
 

Toshi

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My FTP and other whatnot is still sucky... even at my current level the workouts on Zwift are real difficult. Wondering if my FTP got set too high, that's how difficult they are.
Does it report zones as targets? Whether in zones or % of FTP what does it have you doing and for how long?
 

jonKranked

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How did it set your FTP, Jon? That is a very high figure fwiw. Average and 20 min power are certainly within reason as is HR and seem calculated from sensor data as opposed to the FTP.
yea i have no idea how it set that. i'm still messing with it, that was my first ride with it. trying to decide if i feel like doing another FTP on the garmin, or if i should just set it at 245 from my last FTP test (which, btw i sent kinetic the file for them to calculate the FTP based on the test I did, and they got the same result I did when I calculated it myself).
 

Full Trucker

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Does it report zones as targets?
Could be either, depending on the workout. Sometimes it's just "hey hit this zone" and other times it's "hit this wattage specifically" or whatever.

Whether in zones or % of FTP what does it have you doing and for how long?
The other night it was kind of all over the place... I think there was some method to the madness though. My FTP is currently 225, and the other night it had me doing some nonsense that looked like this:

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 200W
1 min - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
1 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 210W
1 min - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
1 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 225W
30 sec - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
2 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 235W
30 sec - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
2 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 245W
30 sec - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)

Then a "full gas" ramp for 1-2 minutes and cool down to finish.

Zwift was yelling at me to go like 95rpm cadence on the longer efforts, and like 105rpm on the high wattage ones. I think I just don't ever pedal that fast... probably/maybe because mountain biking? 90rpm feels fast to me, 75-80rpm is more where I generally pedal. The one "mountain bike" workout thinger I did focused on lower cadence work...

It should also be noted, that I've done a sum total of 2-3 workouts where I'm hitting zones and such. Usually I just pedal with a group or pick a route and pedal that. Still experimenting with the workouts... so I don't have any set plan yet.
 

Toshi

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Yeah, based off of that 20 min power 245 sounds right in the ballpark.

Can also try a ramp test, less mentally painful IMO. Cliffs Notes: start at 100W x 5 min, ramp up 5W every 12 seconds until you can do no more. Take the last 1 minute average power, multiply by 72% (not 75% as TrainerRoad does etc.) for a pretty good FTP estimate.

 

Toshi

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Could be either, depending on the workout. Sometimes it's just "hey hit this zone" and other times it's "hit this wattage specifically" or whatever.


The other night it was kind of all over the place... I think there was some method to the madness though. My FTP is currently 225, and the other night it had me doing some nonsense that looked like this:

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 200W
1 min - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
1 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 210W
1 min - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
1 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 225W
30 sec - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
2 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 235W
30 sec - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)
2 min - recovery @ 150W

1 min - ramp up
4 min - 245W
30 sec - 290W (I think... it was up a zone for sure)

Then a "full gas" ramp for 1-2 minutes and cool down to finish.

It should also be noted, that I've done a sum total of 2-3 workouts where I'm hitting zones and such. Usually I just pedal with a group or pick a route and pedal that. Still experimenting with the workouts... so I don't have any set plan yet.
That sounds like a super brutal workout even with a proper FTP. I'd do at least an equal amount of time afterwards at 100-150W, nice and easy.
 

Full Trucker

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That sounds like a super brutal workout even with a proper FTP. I'd do at least an equal amount of time afterwards at 100-150W, nice and easy.
Okay then... maybe the FTP isn't set "wrong" since it was (in fact) super brutal. Especially with the trainer in ERG mode... no rest anywhere. Had to flip ERG off in like the 4th sweet spot set and chill out a bit... Zwift alternated between yelling at me to increase power and speed up pedaling. :rofl:

The workouts include a warmup (I didn't include it in my post) and I also did a 20-25 minute warmup "just pedal" before I did the workout. Maybe next time I start with the workout, and tack on extra at SUPER low effort afterwards if I feel like I need more... as per your suggestion. :think:
 

jonKranked

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Okay then... maybe the FTP isn't set "wrong" since it was (in fact) super brutal. Especially with the trainer in ERG mode... no rest anywhere. Had to flip ERG off in like the 4th sweet spot set and chill out a bit... Zwift alternated between yelling at me to increase power and speed up pedaling. :rofl:

The workouts include a warmup (I didn't include it in my post) and I also did a 20-25 minute warmup "just pedal" before I did the workout. Maybe next time I start with the workout, and tack on extra at SUPER low effort afterwards if I feel like I need more... as per your suggestion. :think:
ERG mode?

should note, i have a kinetic road machine. its a fluid trainer but no added resistance. they do have an extra flywheel that i have on mine, its an extra 12lb flywheel on top of the stock 6lb flywheel, bringing it to 18lbs.
 

Full Trucker

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ERG mode?

should note, i have a kinetic road machine. its a fluid trainer but no added resistance. they do have an extra flywheel that i have on mine, its an extra 12lb flywheel on top of the stock 6lb flywheel, bringing it to 18lbs.
You may already know this part: on the smart trainers, whatever app you're using can tell the trainer to add or remove resistance. Usually this is done to simulate the terrain that you're "riding" on... so if you're climbing a hill in the app, the app tells the trainer to add resistance. Descending, the opposite. ERG is a mode where the app tells the trainer that you are trying to hit a specific wattage, and the trainer adjusts the resistance to match your pedaling and keep you at that wattage. This can be manually set (as in, you tell the app/trainer that you want X watts and it keeps you there) or by an app during a workout, the app will tell the trainer what watts you're trying to hi for that segment of the workout and it adjust accordingly. This is a nice feature in that it almost completely eliminates the need to shift during a workout... you just put your bike in a gear that is less noisy than the others and pedal away, the app/trainer takes care of the rest.
 

jonKranked

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You may already know this part: on the smart trainers, whatever app you're using can tell the trainer to add or remove resistance. Usually this is done to simulate the terrain that you're "riding" on... so if you're climbing a hill in the app, the app tells the trainer to add resistance. Descending, the opposite. ERG is a mode where the app tells the trainer that you are trying to hit a specific wattage, and the trainer adjusts the resistance to match your pedaling and keep you at that wattage. This can be manually set (as in, you tell the app/trainer that you want X watts and it keeps you there) or by an app during a workout, the app will tell the trainer what watts you're trying to hi for that segment of the workout and it adjust accordingly. This is a nice feature in that it almost completely eliminates the need to shift during a workout... you just put your bike in a gear that is less noisy than the others and pedal away, the app/trainer takes care of the rest.
good to know, because i do find myself often running out of gears trying and/or spinning out trying to get over 500w. and that's with a 53T chainring.
 

jonKranked

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kinetic does make a resistance enabled smart trainer control head that's compatible with the unit i have..... for $350.

 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
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good to know, because i do find myself often running out of gears trying and/or spinning out trying to get over 500w. and that's with a 53T chainring.
That's a nice thing about the Peloton: the resistance range goes up quite high. At indicated 99% or 100% resistance and a high cadence in full sprint it'll register up to about 1500W, so for non-actual pro sprinters it's perfectly adequate. My record thus far is 1532 for about 10 seconds, limited equally by my own creatine kinase system and the resistance/cadence limits of the device.
 

Toshi

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Nice. You took an FTP test in August 2020? Or is this some weird estimation thing again?