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The futility of the Prius and the end of the world as we know it

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,037
7,554

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
EV sets PIke's Peak record:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volkswagen-idr-electric-pikes-peak-record/

I thought that hybrids would become the standard racing machine for a while, but technology may completely bypass it. Battery storage is getting better, but still not at fossil fuel density...still, if you want to set the fastest lap at the ring...it probably won't be too many ring records until it's held only by EVs...
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
What is worse?

Harvesting and burning liquid dinosaurs, or mining processes and byproducts for batteries?

(Genuinely curious)
Not a scientific response by any stretch. They're both bad, but one is more urgently bad than the other. The planet's climate is changing due to CO2 emissions. CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing at a pace the planet has never seen before. The global scientific concensus is that we need to stop doing that asap if we want to inhabit a planet with a climate we know and understand in 100 years.

My opinion is that mining and processing for batteries is bad, but not as urgent. And there's hope we can improve those processes, while looking for other options to improve our well being before the atmosphere changes beyond recognition, while minimizing impacts to the geosphere.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
I had the opportunity to buy a used model s recently, but did not take is as I cannot fathom myself being part of those people. I am anxious for more mainstream automakers to get on board so that I can buy an electric car without being one of those people. You have to be one of those people to pay a $30k premium on a car because of the T badge. Go sit in a Model S and then a 5 series or equivalent and tell me that there is a minimum of $30k additional value in your cabin. Drive them both and tell me there is $30k more in the driving experience. Do the math and tell me there is over $30k in savings in going electric only. There isn't- you are paying that premium because you are one of those people. And that's OK, because now that you're one of those people you will be welcomed with open arms by several websites and musk fanatics alike (they are the same) and you can all sing songs and do what you do.

I know the end of the gas engine as we know it is coming, and I know that without Tesla and Obama, it probably wouldn't be coming, but those people scare me.
 

roflbox

roflborx
Jan 23, 2017
3,163
834
Raleigh, NC
I had the opportunity to buy a used model s recently, but did not take is as I cannot fathom myself being part of those people. I am anxious for more mainstream automakers to get on board so that I can buy an electric car without being one of those people. You have to be one of those people to pay a $30k premium on a car because of the T badge. Go sit in a Model S and then a 5 series or equivalent and tell me that there is a minimum of $30k additional value in your cabin. Drive them both and tell me there is $30k more in the driving experience. Do the math and tell me there is over $30k in savings in going electric only. There isn't- you are paying that premium because you are one of those people. And that's OK, because now that you're one of those people you will be welcomed with open arms by several websites and musk fanatics alike (they are the same) and you can all sing songs and do what you do.

I know the end of the gas engine as we know it is coming, and I know that without Tesla and Obama, it probably wouldn't be coming, but those people scare me.
ya
buying is tesla is buying a brand / "lifestyle"

ONE OF US
ONE OF US
ONE OF US
GOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLE
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,504
In hell. Welcome!
I'd rather see electrified commuter rail lines, street trains and buses around here than a growing fleet of e-cars, each carrying a single passenger who now feels "he is saving the planet". Murica has it completely backwards and Musk makes it worse, IMO.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
What is worse?

Harvesting and burning liquid dinosaurs, or mining processes and byproducts for batteries?

(Genuinely curious)
People act as if you don't mine a bunch of shit to build a car and engine out of metal in the first place. As engines get more efficient, they have to get more and more exotic to use better high-temperature parts, forged parts, etc. That all takes machines that also have to be build, etc.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
40,145
16,539
Riding the baggage carousel.
Fuck anyone who supports an abusive work environment.
Couldn't help but think of a place I worked at for about a year when I read that article. Guy who owned it was a straight up abusive, bipolar, psychopath. He lost his shit one day too many and I walked out. Then he REALLY went nuts. I was genuinely concerned I was going to get physically assaulted. It was a scary couple weeks of being unemployed, but totally worth it. Fuck you, Scott.

buying is tesla is buying a brand / "lifestyle"
Harleys for guys whose wives wont let them buy a Harley.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
I had the opportunity to buy a used model s recently, but did not take is as I cannot fathom myself being part of those people. I am anxious for more mainstream automakers to get on board so that I can buy an electric car without being one of those people. You have to be one of those people to pay a $30k premium on a car because of the T badge. Go sit in a Model S and then a 5 series or equivalent and tell me that there is a minimum of $30k additional value in your cabin. Drive them both and tell me there is $30k more in the driving experience. Do the math and tell me there is over $30k in savings in going electric only. There isn't- you are paying that premium because you are one of those people. And that's OK, because now that you're one of those people you will be welcomed with open arms by several websites and musk fanatics alike (they are the same) and you can all sing songs and do what you do.

I know the end of the gas engine as we know it is coming, and I know that without Tesla and Obama, it probably wouldn't be coming, but those people scare me.
Oh give me a break. The car world is the very definitition of those people. Off the top of my head theres:
Taco people
Audi people
truck people
wagon people
CUV people
bike people
harley people
japanese bike people
rice people
westphalia people
campervan people
sprinter people
///people

I don't think any of them are any different than Tesla people. In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say car people in general are a freakier bunch than Tesla lovers. As evidence I give you Jeremy Clarkson, Dick Hammond and James May, and any show they work on. Their fans are wackier than any Tesla people.

Tesla was the only game in town for a while, and Musk was the personality that got it off the ground. as has been pointed out, the game has changed, and Tesla is now one of several options, and the options are increasing. Those people now have options, and some will stick to Tesla caus' they were innovators, but others will look elsewhere. Tesla doesn't have the market to itself anymore, and they're going to have to compete on the same level as the other carmakers: quality, price, comfort etc etc etc. Not just who it's CEO is. That's why I think Tesla is no longer just Musk.

I'd rather see electrified commuter rail lines, street trains and buses around here than a growing fleet of e-cars, each carrying a single passenger who now feels "he is saving the planet". Murica has it completely backwards and Musk makes it worse, IMO.
I don't know. I'm not 100% certain what the emissions breakdown in the US is, but up here's about 24% of the countries emissions come from transportation. On-road passenger vehicles account for over 80% of those emissions. You've got to address those emissions on a priority basis. And then you can start looking at other sources. You're right, getting people out of cars and into transit is ideal, but until our cities are built around mass transit rather than personal vehicles, you're not gonna make a big difference to emissions by electrifying transit. better off starting with electrifying cars.

and beyond Tesla, Musk is also working on batteries. Batteries that can be used in homes, buses, and even at the utility scale.

To be honest, I'm not a Musk fanboi, but I also think the Musk hate is a little tiresome. He's done shit-ton to move the goalposts. He's not perfect. but who is?
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,504
In hell. Welcome!
I don't know. I'm not 100% certain what the emissions breakdown in the US is, but up here's about 24% of the countries emissions come from transportation. On-road passenger vehicles account for over 80% of those emissions. You've got to address those emissions on a priority basis. And then you can start looking at other sources. You're right, getting people out of cars and into transit is ideal, but until our cities are built around mass transit rather than personal vehicles, you're not gonna make a big difference to emissions by electrifying transit. better off starting with electrifying cars.
And that is the problem. Our cities *were* built around mass transit, at least here in Boston. We had street cars connecting suburbs to the city. Modern train infrastructure for the period. All gone now, replaced by cars. Instead of realizing we cannot stuff more cars on the roads, we give people the sense of false responsible behavior when they sit in morning and evening traffic in their luxury electric cars. It just does not make sense from the environmental point of view, IMHO.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
Oh give me a break. The car world is the very definitition of those people. Off the top of my head theres:
Taco people
Audi people
truck people
wagon people
CUV people
bike people
harley people
japanese bike people
rice people
westphalia people
campervan people
sprinter people
///people

I don't think any of them are any different than Tesla people. In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say car people in general are a freakier bunch than Tesla lovers. As evidence I give you Jeremy Clarkson, Dick Hammond and James May, and any show they work on. Their fans are wackier than any Tesla people.


Tesla was the only game in town for a while, and Musk was the personality that got it off the ground. as has been pointed out, the game has changed, and Tesla is now one of several options, and the options are increasing. Those people now have options, and some will stick to Tesla caus' they were innovators, but others will look elsewhere. Tesla doesn't have the market to itself anymore, and they're going to have to compete on the same level as the other carmakers: quality, price, comfort etc etc etc. Not just who it's CEO is. That's why I think Tesla is no longer just Musk.


I don't know. I'm not 100% certain what the emissions breakdown in the US is, but up here's about 24% of the countries emissions come from transportation. On-road passenger vehicles account for over 80% of those emissions. You've got to address those emissions on a priority basis. And then you can start looking at other sources. You're right, getting people out of cars and into transit is ideal, but until our cities are built around mass transit rather than personal vehicles, you're not gonna make a big difference to emissions by electrifying transit. better off starting with electrifying cars.

and beyond Tesla, Musk is also working on batteries. Batteries that can be used in homes, buses, and even at the utility scale.

To be honest, I'm not a Musk fanboi, but I also think the Musk hate is a little tiresome. He's done shit-ton to move the goalposts. He's not perfect. but who is?

Oh, when are the affordable, sustainable batteries coming out? After the luxury cars, or after the luxury roof tiles, or after the luxury wall packs? Just curious when that's happening, is it after he buys his brother's struggling solar company? Because it sure seems to be waaaaaaaaaay back on the backburner, compared to putting cars in space, or $20 million lawsuits. Or flame throwers. Or surfboards. Or tunnels. Or smoking weed on TV. Or vaporware electric trucks. Or....
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
I don't know. I'm not 100% certain what the emissions breakdown in the US is, but up here's about 24% of the countries emissions come from transportation. On-road passenger vehicles account for over 80% of those emissions. You've got to address those emissions on a priority basis. And then you can start looking at other sources. You're right, getting people out of cars and into transit is ideal, but until our cities are built around mass transit rather than personal vehicles, you're not gonna make a big difference to emissions by electrifying transit. better off starting with electrifying cars.
By not addressing the real issues we will never be able to save the planet for us humans. The planet and life in general will survive, but if the human race does is questionable. Nobody wants to talk about that there are too many people on the planet. Further, those that are responsible for the majority of the pollution, energy consumption etc. don't want to change their lifestyle. This is why we are f***'d. I hope you don't have kids, because that is just irresponsible. ;)
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
Oh, when are the affordable, sustainable batteries coming out? After the luxury cars, or after the luxury roof tiles, or after the luxury wall packs? Just curious when that's happening, is it after he buys his brother's struggling solar company? Because it sure seems to be waaaaaaaaaay back on the backburner, compared to putting cars in space, or $20 million lawsuits. Or flame throwers. Or surfboards. Or tunnels. Or smoking weed on TV. Or vaporware electric trucks. Or....
I'll ignore the Musk-hate because... well, because why bother?! whatever floats your boat.

I'll readily acknowledge that I'm not a clean-tech expert, let alone a car-guy (they get me from point a to point b when I can't take my bike). But to me, this seems like a clear message that people other than Musk are looking at improving batteries: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-daimler-batteries/daimler-to-buy-20-billion-euros-worth-of-electric-car-battery-cells-idUKKBN1OA0O2

also note that Daimler is going to be offering 130 models of electric, hybrid, or hydrogen vehicles (including cars, vans and trucks).