The futility of the Prius and the end of the world as we know it
- Thread starter Toshi
- Start date
We need the human species to go extinct. The planet will correct itself.
You first.
Has anyone produced a durable thing where the combined benefit from greener production and increased efficiency of that new thing makes it beneficial to replace an existing functioning thing of the same kind?
If you have a functioning TV, is there any new TV you could buy that would be produced and operate so efficiently that it would create a net environmental benefit to buy the new TV?
I think cars might be the most likely candidate but I’m not convinced. Assuming you have a well maintained car of any kind that is 5-10 years old, is there any other car (Prius, Tesla, Volt) you could buy which would create a net benefit to the environment, not just in fuel consumption or emissions, but in totality considering the production of the new vehicle and disposal of the old one.
I’m trying to think of an example and I just can’t come up with one easily. Either I’m missing something obvious or...
If you have a functioning TV, is there any new TV you could buy that would be produced and operate so efficiently that it would create a net environmental benefit to buy the new TV?
I think cars might be the most likely candidate but I’m not convinced. Assuming you have a well maintained car of any kind that is 5-10 years old, is there any other car (Prius, Tesla, Volt) you could buy which would create a net benefit to the environment, not just in fuel consumption or emissions, but in totality considering the production of the new vehicle and disposal of the old one.
I’m trying to think of an example and I just can’t come up with one easily. Either I’m missing something obvious or...
I think that assumes that previous product functions perfectly, which IME is almost never the case when we are looking at something that's been around for 20 years. It's usually slowly degraded and save for some exceptions, it generally degrades to the point where it no longer does what it was supposed to do or meets the application requirements. Maybe that's just me, since I hold on to my phones until they completely shit out or when my TV flat out doesn't work anymore. If you assume that previous product works perfectly, you'll never justify replacing in the sense you describe, because it'll always take resources to put the new product together. Consumption is IMO more of a given/constant. We are *going to* consume. Hopefully we can do it smartly and with companies making good decisions (yeah right) to minimize the impacts. This is where the smarter choices come in though, rather than just a fuck-all approach and super-fund sites.
People usually justify buying a new 40K vehicle, saying it'll be "more fuel efficient", spending thousands more per year on that car, it's insurance, the payments, etc., vs. a few hundred in gas, but again, that assumes previous vehicle functions perfectly in all other respects. This is usually the classic example. The justification from fuel efficiency usually doesn't work, given all the energy required to produce a new vehicle, but save for a few unicorns and unique situations, stuff breaks down over time and after a point, it's not always a good idea to keep throwing money into it.
I was trying to figure out how to qualify how well the “old” thing functioned. Everything has a useful life, and sims things degrade more with use. A TV generally goes from working to not working. A car might go from working, to needing some maintenance, to needing lots of maintenance. I’m not necessarily looking for the old something to be functioning “perfectly” but certainly reasonably well.
Is there a refrigerator or washing machine that has come out in recent years that has made it an obvious choice to replace an existing unit? My apartment has the same dishwasher and refrigerator it came with 15 years ago. I can’t imagine new technology is so good that replacing these items with newer, more efficient ones could ever make sense when looking at the disposal of these and the production of the new ones.
Now, obviously, technology will march forward, and designs will improve. New houses will be constructed and furnished with the latest and greatest appliances. Some remodeling will also happen and existing functioning units will be sold and trickle down into the used market to replace units that have completely failed.
What I’m looking for is an example of a no-brainer advancement that is so good that it is obviously worth replacing a slightly older but functioning unit.
Is there a refrigerator or washing machine that has come out in recent years that has made it an obvious choice to replace an existing unit? My apartment has the same dishwasher and refrigerator it came with 15 years ago. I can’t imagine new technology is so good that replacing these items with newer, more efficient ones could ever make sense when looking at the disposal of these and the production of the new ones.
Now, obviously, technology will march forward, and designs will improve. New houses will be constructed and furnished with the latest and greatest appliances. Some remodeling will also happen and existing functioning units will be sold and trickle down into the used market to replace units that have completely failed.
What I’m looking for is an example of a no-brainer advancement that is so good that it is obviously worth replacing a slightly older but functioning unit.
Since we still essencially run on a carbon based economy, I think the simplest way to compare that is by basic finances.
So if you have say a paid off and functioning Mazda 3 that will require a few grand in maintenance on top of fuel costs and wanted to compare that with a new Nissan Leaf. You would have to own and operate the Leaf for 17 years for it to make sense to buy one to replace the old Mazda. The general answer is that it always depends, but usually it is best to keep running something older that is still in good condition than it is to buy something new and more efficient.
Airlines typically run airplanes for about 20 years, they usually have a lot more life in them at that point. but that is usually the point where it becomes cheaper to buy a newer more efficient model.
I would say DSLR camera bodies. A 5-10 year old works, but is missing video, higher megapixels, AI-AF, etc. So an upgrade to a mirrorless body is a huge improvement. Lenses on the other hand....
Basically my calculus when I got rid of the jeep. 21 years old, I'd had it for 18. Needed 3-4k in parts/labor, was worth maybe 4-5k if a buyer didn't look too close. Got maybe 16mpg. The Leaf, after factoring in tax credits was a financial, and probably environmental, no brainier. FSM and batteries willing, I'll get almost 2 decades out of the leaf.
I tend to hang on to gadgets to the point where they simply become unusable, either through software bloat or when parts are no longer available.
Worth pointing out, not just efficiency here. Can you stretch an airframe out for decades? Yes, but only if one is willing/able to put in the effort. (A10 says "Hi!") The particular aircraft type I spend most of my time on has very intensive inspections that hit at a cycle of about 18 years, give or take. By the time the aircraft is stripped almost down to nothing, inspected, had it's issues addressed, and reassembled, much like my Jeep, an operator is well on his way to paying for whatever the latest, greatest, new-fangled hotness in regional aircraft is.
Ship of Theseus
Pretty much. I've always wondered what percentage of the aircraft is original by the time in even hits the 20k cycle mark. I'd wager it isn't a lot.
NZ defense force is still flying the C130H Herc's they had back in the Vietnam war...... things are more than 50 years old now!
Tesla with Autopilot hits cop car—driver admits he was watching a movie
The crash threw two officers to the ground, but no one was seriously injured.
arstechnica.com
Thats the whole point of most "independance wars", and why we have 200+ countries instead of 4-5....
Gotta pump those public server opennings...
It's important to identify and, I suppose, give a dollar value to currently 'externalised' costs. We have a very individualistic viewpoint on these things, and we need to take a wider look. Burning hydrocarbons has a cost, not to you directly, but to all of us. Cali wildfires are a case in point. 'Cheap gas' actually equals a massive environmental and human cost. At this point, it seems increasingly immoral to buy a new ICE-powered device when battery options are available.
More directly to Mandown's Q: A year~ish ago my old washing machine died and I replaced it with a new one; takes cold water in only and heats it with an internal heat pump. It is way cheaper (like half) to run even on electrical costs alone, let alone the unquantified savings that are happening in my hot water system. I expect in dollar costs along it will take a while to 'pay itself off' but it is also causing less damage to the environment, which I don't have a way to quantify atm. I was able to send my old one to be at least partially recycled. Also hard to quantify, but I expect has a very minor energy impact overall, but it does mean less landfill.
Also why I drive a Leaf, buy power from a renewables only company, etc...
More directly to Mandown's Q: A year~ish ago my old washing machine died and I replaced it with a new one; takes cold water in only and heats it with an internal heat pump. It is way cheaper (like half) to run even on electrical costs alone, let alone the unquantified savings that are happening in my hot water system. I expect in dollar costs along it will take a while to 'pay itself off' but it is also causing less damage to the environment, which I don't have a way to quantify atm. I was able to send my old one to be at least partially recycled. Also hard to quantify, but I expect has a very minor energy impact overall, but it does mean less landfill.
Also why I drive a Leaf, buy power from a renewables only company, etc...
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Waste Land : Planet Money
Recycling plastic has never worked very well. So who convinced us this was a good idea? In this episode, we might have the answer. | Subscribe to our weekly newsletter here.
www.npr.org
I'll listen to that tomorrow. I remember reading a national geo article that went into great depth about "biodegradable" plastics, recycling and the environment. It stated that pretty much all the scientists were on board in the 70s and 80s, only that the plastics didn't break down like predicted, they simply broke into smaller pieces of plastic, not harmless compounds or elements. These are now in all sorts of ecosystems, inside fish and other sea creatures that we eat.Waste Land : Planet Money
Recycling plastic has never worked very well. So who convinced us this was a good idea? In this episode, we might have the answer. | Subscribe to our weekly newsletter here.
Yup.
The #toshi2020 platform
Modeled off of this hodge-podge of a page: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ Broad sections: Economy Education Environment Health Justice and equality National security
ridemonkey.bikemag.com
dc comics...so prescient!
New Climate Maps Show a Transformed United States
According to new data analyzed by ProPublica and The New York Times Magazine, warming temperatures, rising seas and changing rainfall will profoundly reshape the way people have lived in North America for centuries.
projects.propublica.org
Humans Wiped Out Two-Thirds of the World’s Wildlife in 50 Years
Threats to global biodiversity are also threats to humans, experts warn
www.smithsonianmag.com
It's not all bad.
The U.N. report did contain bright spots. For instance, experts pointed to the efficacy of human-led conservation efforts, such as a program in Pakistan that protects snow leopards and a campaign to save the Japanese crested ibis from extinction,
Entertaining-ishWaste Land : Planet Money
Recycling plastic has never worked very well. So who convinced us this was a good idea? In this episode, we might have the answer. | Subscribe to our weekly newsletter here.
'Cenário desolador e frustrante': 25 imagens que ilustram tragédia no Pantanal - BBC News Brasil
Bioma enfrenta pior período de queimadas e seca das últimas décadas; diversos animais morreram e parte da vegetação foi destruída.
www.bbc.com
Cop arrests apparently sleeping Tesla driver going 93mph
The vehicle had “both front seats completely reclined,” according to police.
arstechnica.com
Watch Ewan McGregor Visit His '54 VW Beetle EV Conversion in the Shop
The clip comes from the forthcoming Apple TV+ motorcycle adventure documentary series 'Long Way Up.'
www.caranddriver.com
Way way too close to The Island...Watch Ewan McGregor Visit His '54 VW Beetle EV Conversion in the Shop
The clip comes from the forthcoming Apple TV+ motorcycle adventure documentary series 'Long Way Up.'
Reduce, reuse, hepatitis.
www.cbsnews.com
Police raid in Vietnam finds more than 300,000 used condoms being packed for resale
The factory's owner, a 34-year-old woman, reportedly confessed they bought the used condoms from someone else.
www.cbsnews.com
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I'm glad, that as weird and chaotic as this year has seemed, some things remain consistent.
Is this a poopdeck from another thread?I'm glad, that as weird and chaotic as this year has seemed, some things remain consistent.
A bit ironic that the places that will be impacted the most are the places that seem to care the least. Id say you reap what you sow, but judging by the impact to agriculture, in 30 years they won't be familiar with that concept.New Climate Maps Show a Transformed United States
According to new data analyzed by ProPublica and The New York Times Magazine, warming temperatures, rising seas and changing rainfall will profoundly reshape the way people have lived in North America for centuries.projects.propublica.org
My company has exceeded all expectations with WFH during this pandemic. I have to imagine a not so insignificant portion of the working population is in a similar position. The reduction in pollution with a fraction of the commuters would be immensely beneficial in cutting our greenhouse gas emissions.
Not that I expect they'll make this permanent. Too many antiquated attitudes about face time equaling productivity for that to happen.
Not that I expect they'll make this permanent. Too many antiquated attitudes about face time equaling productivity for that to happen.