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The futility of the Prius and the end of the world as we know it

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
12,275
1,239
Hypernormality
This is an incorrect assumption
I know what you’re saying but people in the US, in general, have a significant capability to move compared to a vast swathe of the planet, and also these that have the choice are on the whole the ones doing the damage, and could choose not to.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
30,011
6,147
The old timey times
I know what you’re saying but people in the US in general have a significant capability to move compared to a vast swathe of the planet, and also these that have the choice are one the whole the ones doing the damage, and could choose not to.
If only there were someone in this thread trying to make a case for less waste!

You've been here and seen how spread out things are. Greyhound and Amtrak ain't doing it. In so much of the place, if you want a job, you need a car.

Some of the biggest traditional opponents of workable public transportation are the usual suspects. We should have just nationalized GMC/Chevy in 2008 :D
 
Oct 30, 2006
309
203
Corn Fields of Indiana
I didn't say "just move". In fact, here's the same quote I shared with the unique white person (with different parts in bold):

I think it's a tragedy that small-scale family farms are not a sustainable model in this day and age. That in order to survive, farmers need to industrialize their operations and "optimize" their production. All this has done is make the banks richer, and made rural living excessively expensive. not to mention drained the nutritional value from the food chain.

I don't know what the answer is, but something has to be done. And it has to start somewhere.
Oh really?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
12,275
1,239
Hypernormality
I have for the last couple of months, turned off my autocorrects, in an attempt to unlazy my typing. Apologies for the more frequent poor spullullingz.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
12,275
1,239
Hypernormality
If only there were someone in this thread trying to make a case for less waste!

You've been here and seen how spread out things are. Greyhound and Amtrak ain't doing it. In so much of the place, if you want a job, you need a car.
Orrrr, you could have invested more in those things and knowing the size of your country and population, planned things collectively a bit better.

Anyway, what is passed is passed. The only logical thing to do is to look that history in the face and do better today and the next day.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
7,517
3,291
Ottawa, Canada
Oh really?
I was recently looking for real estate for my mom. she had included farms in the search. any operating farm around here was at a minimum $2 million. Now I'm no expert, but I don't think the average person has access to that kind of money without borrowing it.

Also, what does a combine harvester cost? what's the annual cost for fertilizer/pest control for the average farm?

like I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me the average family farm runs on debt. I'm not saying they can't make a living, but rather I'm bemoaning the fact that bankers get to profit from it.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
7,517
3,291
Ottawa, Canada
I’d say that it’s pretty true.
Stop with this overpopulation bullshit. Again: there is enough food, water, shelter and technology capability to give everyone on earth a decent life but we don’t do it.

In the west, and sorry but especially America, there is profligate waste. 1/3 of all food (upto 1/2 by some accounting) created is wasted. The average US carbon footprint (17 tonnes pa CO2 or 21 CO2e) is basically 3 times a French/German/NZ (6-8 tonnes) who have a statically better quality of life, and hugely more than an Indian at less than 2.

Crying about overpopulation is being the global one person in ten; an overfed, rich person belching emissions, with two huge cars, a big house, several TVs, lots of flights, eating lots of unsustainable food, whilst the other nine live relatively significantly impoverished lives. It’s a lazy, racist, borderline fascist talking point.

Be clear about whose carbon that is in the atmosphere. The US especially and UK (10 tonnes) and the developed west as a whole have a massively, massively outsized contribution to global warming vs.population size. When overpopulation is invoked in debate the unstated implication is all those millions of brown people in asia should die. Well fuck off. We all, especially Americans, have an outsized duty to fix our shit up, and we have zero right to invoke ‘overpopulation’ as a ‘solution’ until we do.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
3,730
1,561
Urban living is significantly more sustainable than the same amount of people living rurally. Don’t be dumb.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
3,730
1,561
Stop with this overpopulation bullshit. Again: there is enough food, water, shelter and technology capability to give everyone on earth a decent life but we don’t do it.

In the west, and sorry but especially America, there is profligate waste. 1/3 of all food (upto 1/2 by some accounting) created is wasted. The average US carbon footprint (17 tonnes pa CO2 or 21 CO2e) is basically 3 times a French/German/NZ (6-8 tonnes) who have a statically better quality of life, and hugely more than an Indian at less than 2.

Crying about overpopulation is being the global one person in ten; an overfed, rich person belching emissions, with two huge cars, a big house, several TVs, lots of flights, eating lots of unsustainable food, whilst the other nine live relatively significantly impoverished lives. It’s a lazy, racist, borderline fascist talking point.

Be clear about whose carbon that is in the atmosphere. The US especially and UK (10 tonnes) and the developed west as a whole have a massively, massively outsized contribution to global warming vs.population size. When overpopulation is invoked in debate the unstated implication is all those millions of brown people in asia should die. Well fuck off. We all, especially Americans, have an outsized duty to fix our shit up, and we have zero right to invoke ‘overpopulation’ as a ‘solution’ until we do.
You misunderstood me: I hate all people equally and find that everybody should stop reproducing.
Speaking of facist: everything you do not agree with is BS and your lifestyle choices are the only ones that are acceptable? Let me think, who else had that philosophy....mmh....
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
32,117
4,018
Penalizing cities in that comparison because their inhabitants make more isn't a fair comparison of the locales, per se.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
30,011
6,147
The old timey times
I was recently looking for real estate for my mom. she had included farms in the search. any operating farm around here was at a minimum $2 million. Now I'm no expert, but I don't think the average person has access to that kind of money without borrowing it.

Also, what does a combine harvester cost? what's the annual cost for fertilizer/pest control for the average farm?

like I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me the average family farm runs on debt. I'm not saying they can't make a living, but rather I'm bemoaning the fact that bankers get to profit from it.
I think we're talking about different things as 'rural'. Rural to a lot of people doesn't just mean "farming"

I live in a pretty rural area that has nothing to do with livestock or food production......and I gotta drive to get underwear (or even my mail for that matter)
 
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Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
12,275
1,239
Hypernormality
For most of Europe and certainly the US, the carbon footprint goes (high to low) suburban, rural, urban, metro. That study holds with part of the trend that wealth does indeed have a strong positive correlation to carbon footprint.
 
Oct 30, 2006
309
203
Corn Fields of Indiana
I was recently looking for real estate for my mom. she had included farms in the search. any operating farm around here was at a minimum $2 million. Now I'm no expert, but I don't think the average person has access to that kind of money without borrowing it.

Also, what does a combine harvester cost? what's the annual cost for fertilizer/pest control for the average farm?

like I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me the average family farm runs on debt. I'm not saying they can't make a living, but rather I'm bemoaning the fact that bankers get to profit from it.
$2 million? That’s cheap. But keep in mind that it would be the same example of buying an operating business of any sort. There aren’t too many businesses for sale for 100k.

Most farming operations own some of their land and will pay rent or share crop lease the rest. That is the point you bring up, it’s too damn expensive to buy land outright. If you were to go buy a brand new combine with heads you would spend well over a million, however they are a very rapidly depreciating asset. The used market is flooded with machines that are 10-20 years old with plenty of life left for 30-40,000.


It is very hard to say what an average farms chemical cost is, as each farm does it differently. Most farms do not run on debt, yes we all have operating loans, but they are paid off each year. But a quick brows through the auctions it’s easy to find a farm that was operating on debt.

What I am trying to get at is that modern “industrial” farming is the way it needs to shift. My grandpa used to molbord plow (where you roll the soil over) everything. He would then cultivate the crop multiple times. All of this requires a shit load of fossil fuel to do. What he did was also know as organic. Doing it the “old” way is horribly inefficient and costly to the earth.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
6,938
2,109
I was recently looking for real estate for my mom. she had included farms in the search. any operating farm around here was at a minimum $2 million. Now I'm no expert, but I don't think the average person has access to that kind of money without borrowing it.

Also, what does a combine harvester cost? what's the annual cost for fertilizer/pest control for the average farm?

like I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me the average family farm runs on debt. I'm not saying they can't make a living, but rather I'm bemoaning the fact that bankers get to profit from it.
My grandmother in the US died this fall. My mom and her brothers were eager to sell the property/place they grew up for some reason. They listed it and took the first offer, $265k. 30 acres, a few old wooden smallish wooden livestock barns and a garage, old but workable farmhouse, oliver tractor 1940, etc. Mostly flat with a small roll/hill across the width, a couple acres of forest and a stream in it.

Had my wife not been dying the week they wanted to sell it, I probably would have bought it.

This is northern michigan btw, lower peninsula, western side.

If I had to guess from what I’d seen prior to covid, $2million would get you a lot in quebec.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
7,517
3,291
Ottawa, Canada
My grandmother in the US died this fall. My mom and her brothers were eager to sell the property/place they grew up for some reason. They listed it and took the first offer, $265k. 30 acres, a few old wooden smallish wooden livestock barns and a garage, old but workable farmhouse, oliver tractor 1940, etc. Mostly flat with a small roll/hill across the width, a couple acres of forest and a stream in it.

Had my wife not been dying the week they wanted to sell it, I probably would have bought it.

This is northern michigan btw, lower peninsula, western side.

If I had to guess from what I’d seen prior to covid, $2million would get you a lot in quebec.
I was looking for property in a 1 hour radius from Ottawa. Ontario or Quebec. Anything that you describe was going for $500-$700k. A real, functioning farm would go for at least $2M.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
6,938
2,109
I was looking for property in a 1 hour radius from Ottawa. Ontario or Quebec. Anything that you describe was going for $500-$700k. A real, functioning farm would go for at least $2M.
yeah, that sounds like what I was seeing.
 

CBJ

Turbo Monkey
Mar 19, 2002
11,760
1,918
Copenhagen, Denmark
My grandmother in the US died this fall. My mom and her brothers were eager to sell the property/place they grew up for some reason. They listed it and took the first offer, $265k. 30 acres, a few old wooden smallish wooden livestock barns and a garage, old but workable farmhouse, oliver tractor 1940, etc. Mostly flat with a small roll/hill across the width, a couple acres of forest and a stream in it.

Had my wife not been dying the week they wanted to sell it, I probably would have bought it.

This is northern michigan btw, lower peninsula, western side.

If I had to guess from what I’d seen prior to covid, $2million would get you a lot in quebec.
Wait, you wife died?