Whoa. Jeenyus drive-by!
The futility of the Prius and the end of the world as we know it
- Thread starter Toshi
- Start date
We could do that too, quite frankly I think it's time we stop trying to babysite the entire globe anyway
For all you guys talking "sustainability," I've got news for you: There really is no such thing. Organisms reproduce to the extent that thier environment will support their numbers. There is no balance to be struck with what has been preserved of nature. Technological achievements will only allow humans to continue on their current path of resource depletion, not reverse that path. No significant mechanism for limiting human reproduction exists, and it's in our DNA to reproduce even at the expense of "nature," other people, even our own well-being (See: Selfish Gene Theory, Dawkins).
In short, would anyone here HONESTLY not shoot the last panda on the planet to feed their hungry child? Basically, if you wouldn't you're a Darwinian failure.
And that's nature...not even touching selfishness, materialism, American wastefulness and other social constructs.
We are screwed as much as any other species on an exponential growth curve. Resources will be depleted, population will crash (ugly) and that cycle will either repeat in full or reach some dynamic equilibrium of lesser peaks and valleys centered around a finite carrying capacity. All the Prius, recycled bags, endangered species act, etc. are doing is putting a butterface on truly nasty b*tch. Reality/nature...whatever you want to call it.
Edit: that part about the butterface makes no sense. I meant the opposite of that.
In short, would anyone here HONESTLY not shoot the last panda on the planet to feed their hungry child? Basically, if you wouldn't you're a Darwinian failure.
And that's nature...not even touching selfishness, materialism, American wastefulness and other social constructs.
We are screwed as much as any other species on an exponential growth curve. Resources will be depleted, population will crash (ugly) and that cycle will either repeat in full or reach some dynamic equilibrium of lesser peaks and valleys centered around a finite carrying capacity. All the Prius, recycled bags, endangered species act, etc. are doing is putting a butterface on truly nasty b*tch. Reality/nature...whatever you want to call it.
Edit: that part about the butterface makes no sense. I meant the opposite of that.
Last edited:
why don't you just say that extinction is part of the natural life cycle, and some day as a species we will become extinct.
Well that's true but ultimately uninformative.
What Im talking about are general trends in ecology during a species' existence. Not the end of the species, and I wouldnt care to speculate on when or how humans would go extinct or whether that has anything to do with resource depletion.
Species generally do not go extinct because they use up all their resources.
Yep, that's a pretty good summary.
The ONLY possible route for humanity that doesn't involve GUNS! or a return to ~18c lifestyles is onwards and upwards... can we continue to substitute new tech for old tech and stay ahead of the problems caused by previous actions.
I know an old lady who swallowed a fly etc...
This is reliant on govt leadership AND private initiatives (capitalism). Both of these rely inturn on the votes and $ of the general public. Votes and $ require support = buy-in of what's being sold = education and opportunity/willingness to change.
Short term election cycles and ****ty media tend to mean a focus on the trivial...and so a general unawareness/don't give a **** attitude....UNTIL the **** hits the fan. The issue is then about; is there enough oomph left (energy, materials, brains, food, social cohesion etc) to come up with fixes.
Idiocracy
interesting factoid.
after reading a few pages in nasioc`s version of this thread, ive come to a simple realization.
fully grown adults who play with pedal bikes and derive ecstatic pleasure from random images of talking animals, are apparently more mature/smart than fully grown adults who play with cars and other much more expensive toys, usually reserved for responsible licenced adults, which one would image require more income/educational level to support.
after reading a few pages in nasioc`s version of this thread, ive come to a simple realization.
fully grown adults who play with pedal bikes and derive ecstatic pleasure from random images of talking animals, are apparently more mature/smart than fully grown adults who play with cars and other much more expensive toys, usually reserved for responsible licenced adults, which one would image require more income/educational level to support.
Last edited:
oh noes
One of my friends pointed out a very relevant recent TED video, in which Bill Gates speaks about "Innovating to Zero". I highly recommend watching it:
http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates.html
The stuff he talks about is the stuff that used to give me hope--talk of green-minded venture capital firms incubating the "next big thing". I don't share Bill Gates' optimism, however, as evidenced by this thread. I don't think the problem is technological, although his proposed nuclear tech is quite cool. I think the problem is that meeting his "report card" goals of 20% reduction of global CO2 by 2020 and 80% reduction by 2050 will be impossible for political reasons.
As long as there's coal in the ground in West Virginia you'll never see a full-fledged energy tax clear Congress and be signed into law, and without such drastic incentives/disincentives fossil fuels will be used to the very last drop.
http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates.html
The stuff he talks about is the stuff that used to give me hope--talk of green-minded venture capital firms incubating the "next big thing". I don't share Bill Gates' optimism, however, as evidenced by this thread. I don't think the problem is technological, although his proposed nuclear tech is quite cool. I think the problem is that meeting his "report card" goals of 20% reduction of global CO2 by 2020 and 80% reduction by 2050 will be impossible for political reasons.
As long as there's coal in the ground in West Virginia you'll never see a full-fledged energy tax clear Congress and be signed into law, and without such drastic incentives/disincentives fossil fuels will be used to the very last drop.
That. If you spent any time on NASIOC you can see where this could go.must spread rep
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/24/business/energy-environment/24solar.html
This is the kind of bull**** that will ensure the status quo persists, at least until things become dire enough that questioning the rights of humans for clean energy vs. a tortoise that lives in the Death Valley becomes irrelevant.
This is the kind of bull**** that will ensure the status quo persists, at least until things become dire enough that questioning the rights of humans for clean energy vs. a tortoise that lives in the Death Valley becomes irrelevant.
And it's because people LIKE the status quo. CHANGE = BAD
I love that the PV plants are getting pushed through, where thermal solar are multiple times more efficient and use far less dangerous metals and chemicals in the process. Let alone the PV cells dying after a few years of use...
Actually Boeing's new PV panels are about 10% more efficient than the dishes they mentioned were canceled. Those dishes are sun tracking with lots of moving parts and need more regular cleaning as they are mirror based so their maintenance will be more than PV panels. The Tessera dishes are certainly more economical up front but their longevity and cost of ownership is not proven like PVs. Most PV panels usually have a 20-25 year warranty, so your claim on useful life is also BS.I love that the PV plants are getting pushed through, where thermal solar are multiple times more efficient and use far less dangerous metals and chemicals in the process. Let alone the PV cells dying after a few years of use...
http://news.businessweek.com/article.asp?documentKey=1376-LCANB007SXKX01-5VR6N2AMTLPET77JIRHK6QS834
Our system went online just before 2011. The past few months are typically minimum solar output of the year and we've had abnormal severe snow coverage, it will only improve now and we'll be selling back power in the peak months:
Last edited:
Whats Panda meat taste like? Hopefully not chicken. I phugging sick of everything I kill tasting like chicken. I am so hoping the smelt runs are early as I have depleted all my fish stocks. Nothing but organs in the freezer sadly. My brother is in the same lot....
So far I've found that the only benefit getting older grants you, other than easy access to legal drugs, is perspective.
The oil industry is still new in real terms. We're getting to the end of it but most of us grew up knowing people who didn't have cars, at least in their early days. Perhaps those guys involved in the breeding, feeding and husbandry of animals couldn't imagine a future without a horse or a steam engine transporting us and our goods. I mean the horse and the ship between them bought us all to the ends of the earth. And now oil has taken over and in an undetermined time Ford and Toyota and so on will go out of business as the stables did. And another idea will have its time.
We don't really appreciate it yet but it took the oil pioneers years to get people in bed with what they could do but eventually people realised it was the way to go. The next way is already here but it hasn't reached a critical mass yet. Can each of us get our solar arrays sorted quick enough to reach that mass. Will it be solar, water and wind or will nuclear reach the point where it can't be ignored. I mean these are all nascent technologies in the grand scheme of things. I don't think we're far enough into the arrogance phase yet to believe we've got it sorted. I mean we could have done it with our nuclear weapons put we pulled back from that abyss at least for a while.
Toshi it will happen but it won't be because of what we did or didn't do. We haven't got to that point yet, nowhere near. And here's where you're right, it will happen, cause it happens to them all, but we're not even close to doing it yet.　But that doesn't mean we should carry on regardless. By the end of this century they'll probably laugh at our hybrids but will recognise them as the first nascent steps.
The oil industry is still new in real terms. We're getting to the end of it but most of us grew up knowing people who didn't have cars, at least in their early days. Perhaps those guys involved in the breeding, feeding and husbandry of animals couldn't imagine a future without a horse or a steam engine transporting us and our goods. I mean the horse and the ship between them bought us all to the ends of the earth. And now oil has taken over and in an undetermined time Ford and Toyota and so on will go out of business as the stables did. And another idea will have its time.
We don't really appreciate it yet but it took the oil pioneers years to get people in bed with what they could do but eventually people realised it was the way to go. The next way is already here but it hasn't reached a critical mass yet. Can each of us get our solar arrays sorted quick enough to reach that mass. Will it be solar, water and wind or will nuclear reach the point where it can't be ignored. I mean these are all nascent technologies in the grand scheme of things. I don't think we're far enough into the arrogance phase yet to believe we've got it sorted. I mean we could have done it with our nuclear weapons put we pulled back from that abyss at least for a while.
Toshi it will happen but it won't be because of what we did or didn't do. We haven't got to that point yet, nowhere near. And here's where you're right, it will happen, cause it happens to them all, but we're not even close to doing it yet.　But that doesn't mean we should carry on regardless. By the end of this century they'll probably laugh at our hybrids but will recognise them as the first nascent steps.
we all know this is the answer
Joel Johnson, writing about Foxconn for Wired magazine this month, had a nice soundbite that captures the spirit well:
"... I believe that humankind made a subconscious collective bargain at the dawn of the industrial age to trade the resources of our planet for the chance to escape it. We live in the transitional age between that decision and its conclusion."
"... I believe that humankind made a subconscious collective bargain at the dawn of the industrial age to trade the resources of our planet for the chance to escape it. We live in the transitional age between that decision and its conclusion."
"It would not be at all strange if history came to the conclusion that the perfection of the bicycle was the greatest incident of the nineteenth century."
"When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments. Here was a machine of precision and balance for the convenience of man. And (unlike subsequent inventions for man's convenience) the more he used it, the fitter his body became. Here, for once, was a product of man's brain that was entirely beneficial to those who used it, and of no harm or irritation to others. Progress should have stopped when man invented the bicycle." ~Elizabeth West
automobiles were an unfortunate discovery
"When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments. Here was a machine of precision and balance for the convenience of man. And (unlike subsequent inventions for man's convenience) the more he used it, the fitter his body became. Here, for once, was a product of man's brain that was entirely beneficial to those who used it, and of no harm or irritation to others. Progress should have stopped when man invented the bicycle." ~Elizabeth West
automobiles were an unfortunate discovery
i don't disagree with your premise at all Toshi, but i do take exception to your pessimistic attitude that what you're doing isn't making an impact.
The only power you really have is to influence others, or make wise decisions on agents that would provide representation to your views.
But nobody has all out power to change others. What little power we do have is limited.
BUT, the fact that you do live the lifestyle you do is a virtue that you do "literally" walk your talk.
In this respect, if you are viewing your efforts of minimizing your impact as futile, that much very well may be true. But only viewed with the scope of overall current impact. i would also introduce that we do live in this world where environmental groups are really busy focusing on "safe" issues that provide a bright political platform of feel-good, with minimal real environmental impact, due to losing sponsorship and support. i would say in comparison your over-achievement is more noble, and provides a tangible impact more worthy of the myriad of misguided efforts of conservation efforts expending massive resources, trying to stave off the expansion of a ski resort for instance.
If more people were to have an appreciation of what we do in our everyday work lives has more environmental impact, then that conscience derives the motivation to change. Even if you look at things linearly, there is always a progress that can be apparent. (look at the history of industrialism to validate this thought)
But Energy and Resource Consumption and Overpopulation is indeed not affording us a very tidy outlook. It would be a realistic view to anticipate doom and gloom, but i would submit that it would also be wise not to overlook the x-factor of ingenuity throwing a new wrinkle to the fold, that saves us from having to "pay" for our collective unwise trangressions. Environmentalism at it's core is a selfish construct of collective self-preservation. That in itself shouldn't be underestimated.
All in all the wisdom to carry forth and provide momentum for noble ideals is what i would say to look towards. True difference making is usually illuminated within the echo and not the spoken word.
The only power you really have is to influence others, or make wise decisions on agents that would provide representation to your views.
But nobody has all out power to change others. What little power we do have is limited.
BUT, the fact that you do live the lifestyle you do is a virtue that you do "literally" walk your talk.
In this respect, if you are viewing your efforts of minimizing your impact as futile, that much very well may be true. But only viewed with the scope of overall current impact. i would also introduce that we do live in this world where environmental groups are really busy focusing on "safe" issues that provide a bright political platform of feel-good, with minimal real environmental impact, due to losing sponsorship and support. i would say in comparison your over-achievement is more noble, and provides a tangible impact more worthy of the myriad of misguided efforts of conservation efforts expending massive resources, trying to stave off the expansion of a ski resort for instance.
If more people were to have an appreciation of what we do in our everyday work lives has more environmental impact, then that conscience derives the motivation to change. Even if you look at things linearly, there is always a progress that can be apparent. (look at the history of industrialism to validate this thought)
But Energy and Resource Consumption and Overpopulation is indeed not affording us a very tidy outlook. It would be a realistic view to anticipate doom and gloom, but i would submit that it would also be wise not to overlook the x-factor of ingenuity throwing a new wrinkle to the fold, that saves us from having to "pay" for our collective unwise trangressions. Environmentalism at it's core is a selfish construct of collective self-preservation. That in itself shouldn't be underestimated.
All in all the wisdom to carry forth and provide momentum for noble ideals is what i would say to look towards. True difference making is usually illuminated within the echo and not the spoken word.
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure that since you used 'conversate' in a sentence, most people are superior to you.Yeah, that's it! If you can't conversate with them just call them an asshole and act all superior!!
Very well said.
+ rep
So did you buy the 370z yet?
See post #223, n00b
I'm not buying anything until at least 2013, and Jessica's car will come first. Mine's not going to be a 370Z, though: realistically my autocross/HPDE days will br very few and far between and I realized I'm a bit of an interior snob.
Me too (autocross). I miss that stuff though. I'm actually taking my step son out to an autocross next weekend. They'll both be driving this year, so I figured I'd take them to an event and have them do a few ride-alongs to get them interested. I'm hoping they join up so it keeps them from driving fast on the streets. It should also help them learn how to control their vehicles instead of just "thinking" they're good drivers.
I've got a 95 lx civic that gets killer mileage. That means it wouldn't be any fun to autocross. I suck.
Well then man up and build a 240z, damn I loved that car.
(not mine, but close)
I still want to build one of these
I believe we have a responsibility to future generations that if we are going to give life to them, we need to leave them a home.
Also, recognize the environmental destruction you refer to has only been happening for the last 100 years on a major scale. Incremental reductions now can help pave the way for large scale progress in the future.
Also, recognize the environmental destruction you refer to has only been happening for the last 100 years on a major scale. Incremental reductions now can help pave the way for large scale progress in the future.
Not sure how a $30,000+ luxury hybrid is better than an $2000 Tata Nano that gets 50+mpg.
Another excerpt should be included, one that might demonstrate a little strategy Khosla might be employing to benefit himself, he is a venture capitalist after all...
"Mr Khosla, who clearly likes to see himself as a green iconoclast and financial maverick, is either very foolish or very clever. But at this point it is difficult to say which. “I try a lot of new things,” he says. “It’s fun to play the game and fun to play the odds—and long odds win a lot of fun.”