Yeah, Pacific sets the standard in the industry for class.
The future of 4X?
- Thread starter kOlsen
- Start date
Why are you taking this so seriously?
Is this thread the make-or-break for gated racing? Or is it just a discussion?
Why can't someone have a little fun? I enjoy reading Salty's posts, for reasons that probably aren't valuable to you (humor), but I don't find them out of place or destructive where gated racing is concerned.
Humor is one thing. Satire is a vital thing. Plain old stupidity of the type they only seem to brew in Texas irritates me. I am used to plenty of BMX smack talk, and engage in it myself all the time. The only difference is that it's people that know each other, and most importantly, it has something to do with bike racing, not the pathetic, small minded and clearly misguided hating of some half developed talent who certainly has nothing to offer to his sponsors, and even less to offer to the sport he claims to support without any reasoning or persuasivness beyond the level of your average toddler.
Spoiled fools with big egos don't belong in mountainbiking. It's too damn important for too may people for that to be the norm, and voices that are so embarassingly stupid need to at least be addressed directly, even if they are just misguided internet trolls.
People do read Ridemonkey, more than you would realize, and people just spray-dumping over well reasoned discourse aren't welcomed by me. It's not that the internet is serious bussiness, neither is bike racing.
Fun on the otherhand, that's some serious bussiness, and some twit getting in the way of people advocating for fun, in a way that is just so pathetically weak is just lame. When the offender is completely unable to engage in any sort of discourse constructively, and is regularly called out on it, I would hope that some of the developmentally delayed spraying might get cut off at the pass.
Being dumb ain't cool kids.
Stay in School(or get your goddamn GED and a clue)...
Spoiled fools with big egos don't belong in mountainbiking. It's too damn important for too may people for that to be the norm, and voices that are so embarassingly stupid need to at least be addressed directly, even if they are just misguided internet trolls.
People do read Ridemonkey, more than you would realize, and people just spray-dumping over well reasoned discourse aren't welcomed by me. It's not that the internet is serious bussiness, neither is bike racing.
Fun on the otherhand, that's some serious bussiness, and some twit getting in the way of people advocating for fun, in a way that is just so pathetically weak is just lame. When the offender is completely unable to engage in any sort of discourse constructively, and is regularly called out on it, I would hope that some of the developmentally delayed spraying might get cut off at the pass.
Being dumb ain't cool kids.
Stay in School(or get your goddamn GED and a clue)...
fixed that for ya chief
I'm sure your sponsors would love to see your attitude
Sorry dude you're totally right, we should just make out and make up. Sorry, I just really dont feel like spending 30 minutes out of my evening using wikipedia to look up ginormic (oh snap) words and concocting a witty response, because I'm knee deep in a breakthrough episode of desperate housewives of Atlanta road rules. This is NOT a constructive thread so don't kid yourself. You take shyt way too seriously. Im not trying to harsh anyone's mellow, just have a sense of humor, BUT you are not worth my time to personally attack you so I bid you good day sir.
So wait. Salty. You ride for the best company in the land, and you're an amazing rider.
So usually amazing sponsored riders get, you know, bikes kicked to them. At least, all the ones I know do.
What I'm getting is that a fat kid on acid would go faster then you.
So usually amazing sponsored riders get, you know, bikes kicked to them. At least, all the ones I know do.
What I'm getting is that a fat kid on acid would go faster then you.
It's "faster THAN you," but that's OK I can relate to 3rd graders because I used to be one like 3 years ago. I'm not on the team because Im a great bike rider, which I never claimed to be because I'm not, I just new the right sweatshop owners in Asia. Hence Pacific.
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Like Suspect has Mentioned, more people than you realize do read this site, although very rarely, its safe to assume that anyone who is anyone in MTB reads whats going on from time to time, so an uneducated opinion could just come back to bite you at some time.
To start things off, I consider myself a mountain biker, not DH, not 4X, not slalom, whatever the mood of the day strikes, is what ill ride.
Also, EC, your pretty much the man in my books, love reading your posts. One of my top 5 all time influences, so listen up to him kiddies!
Only reason I post is because I am sick to death of hearing things on this topic from people (certainly no personal attcks here intended) who are ill equipped to give any informed response on these matters. All I get out of reading a lot of these posts is..."Blah Blah Blah I think 4x sucks, who's gonna stroke my ego and agree with me?" It's not doing any good...for anyone. Serioulsy, what the purpose?
The reason for my frustration comes simply, from this.
Everyone, has opinions, everyone is entitled to them. So you are more of a DH person, good for you. Just because you don't like 4X, doesn't mean others don't.
If you have nothing better to do than bag 4X racing on a public stage, you have clearly lost touch of what MTB riding is all about to you, for me, my enjoyment comes from getting away by myself , (anyone who knows me, knows I love riding by myself) pushing my comfort zone, and bettering myself at what is thrown in front of me) time to grow up, or find a girlfriend!
I have made many friends through BMX racing over the past few years, and 90% of them share the same opinion. Because 4X is something they can relate to, and are generally interested in, they think 4X is rad, and always watch the freecaster footage of the world cups, Where as DH is something they can't relate to so much, and aren't as into it, and they think watching it is boring as bat sh*t. So just because 4X isn't your cup of tea, stop trying to bring it down. I know a large amout of people, who think DH is highly overrated. But don't get me wrong. I think DH is rad.
I guess it's similar to say, an Australian coming to the US, and seeing Baseball or Football on TV. Its new to me, it's weird, and to be honest, I would rather watch paint dry. Because it's something i'm personally not into, but it has it's audience (obviously) so leave it at that, it's just not for me. I certainly don't jump on a public forum and unleash my personal feelings
slalom VS 4X
I love slalom, I really feel it brings the best out of a rider, when your brain is in autopilot, coz all you can think about doing is hitting the next turn even faster to get a wheel back in front of the guy you are racing. If 4X was canned at world cup level for slalom it wouldn't bother me too much, certainly not as much as it would bother some.
But I also think that 4X is finally finding it's feet. Tracks at world cup level are getting better, which is highlighting riders skill more. Sorry if there isn't constant carnage and passing, but pulling a passing move on a world cup level rider is not an easy thing that can be done at the click of a finger.
There is a reason UCI went away from slalom in favour of dual, and eventually 4X. EC might be better to fully bring this into the light than I am, but the word I get from UCI is that slalom, along with being a secondary event to DH was too hard for the general spectator to follow, and was confusing.
Another thing people don't understand is that at World cup level these days, riders will only concentrate on one event. Maybe they (the riders)want to do both, but they know that doing both will hinder their favoured event. Im sure everyone wants to see a Dual Slalom Sam Hill VS Steve Peat semi final #1 and a Greg Minnaar VS Jared Graves semi #2, but it's never going to happen. Everything has become very VERY specialized.
4X is bringing in many top BMX riders, and while BMX once again, might not be to your taste, there is a huge following of people who think its rad. There's one key point that I hate also. That the tracks are too BMX'Y and that it makes it easy for BMX riders to do well at 4X. Let me get this straight. Nailing a technical rhythum section is WAY harder than nailing a flat turn. BMX riders are skilled bike riders, and their skills are worth getting rewarded.
By all means, I don't want 4X to be BMX'Y, it's very important to seperate the two, to me the feeling of being almost a passenger on a bike through a rough section is as good as it gets, but when the BMX dude comes along and smokes you in a flat turn, it's no fluke, it's coz he knows how to ride a bike.
Can't help but think also, If USA was at the top of world 4X these days also, would the thoughts be different? 5 years ago the lopes V Carter V King battles were epic and well documented. This 4X negativity seems to comes from no country, bar the US. Didn't hear much negativity when the US dominated?
Jill Kintner has been mentioned, and her recent posts on 4X, Jill and I go way back and are good friends, but I can help but think her thoughts on 4X aren't based around her not so successful (atleast not by her standards)
2009 season. She isn't exactly used to struggling, but things didn't go her way this year, Jill has forced the other girls to get onto a serious rethink, just as Lopes and Prokop did to me a few years ago, and that I expect (no trying to pump up my own tires from this year) that my competitors will do for next season. Things always seem tough and frustrating when the situation is less than expected.
I've seen way too many people fall victim to this scenario. Enter a few 4X races, get their ass handed to them, Blame 4X as a sport, instead of the real problem, which is lack of all around skills in this particular discipline, like precision, strength, smoothness, quick thinking, and aggression, and of course that old chestnut...the gate (which I could hardly balance on 5 years ago, just ask EC!)...over it!
To start things off, I consider myself a mountain biker, not DH, not 4X, not slalom, whatever the mood of the day strikes, is what ill ride.
Also, EC, your pretty much the man in my books, love reading your posts. One of my top 5 all time influences, so listen up to him kiddies!
Only reason I post is because I am sick to death of hearing things on this topic from people (certainly no personal attcks here intended) who are ill equipped to give any informed response on these matters. All I get out of reading a lot of these posts is..."Blah Blah Blah I think 4x sucks, who's gonna stroke my ego and agree with me?" It's not doing any good...for anyone. Serioulsy, what the purpose?
The reason for my frustration comes simply, from this.
Everyone, has opinions, everyone is entitled to them. So you are more of a DH person, good for you. Just because you don't like 4X, doesn't mean others don't.
If you have nothing better to do than bag 4X racing on a public stage, you have clearly lost touch of what MTB riding is all about to you, for me, my enjoyment comes from getting away by myself , (anyone who knows me, knows I love riding by myself) pushing my comfort zone, and bettering myself at what is thrown in front of me) time to grow up, or find a girlfriend!
I have made many friends through BMX racing over the past few years, and 90% of them share the same opinion. Because 4X is something they can relate to, and are generally interested in, they think 4X is rad, and always watch the freecaster footage of the world cups, Where as DH is something they can't relate to so much, and aren't as into it, and they think watching it is boring as bat sh*t. So just because 4X isn't your cup of tea, stop trying to bring it down. I know a large amout of people, who think DH is highly overrated. But don't get me wrong. I think DH is rad.
I guess it's similar to say, an Australian coming to the US, and seeing Baseball or Football on TV. Its new to me, it's weird, and to be honest, I would rather watch paint dry. Because it's something i'm personally not into, but it has it's audience (obviously) so leave it at that, it's just not for me. I certainly don't jump on a public forum and unleash my personal feelings
slalom VS 4X
I love slalom, I really feel it brings the best out of a rider, when your brain is in autopilot, coz all you can think about doing is hitting the next turn even faster to get a wheel back in front of the guy you are racing. If 4X was canned at world cup level for slalom it wouldn't bother me too much, certainly not as much as it would bother some.
But I also think that 4X is finally finding it's feet. Tracks at world cup level are getting better, which is highlighting riders skill more. Sorry if there isn't constant carnage and passing, but pulling a passing move on a world cup level rider is not an easy thing that can be done at the click of a finger.
There is a reason UCI went away from slalom in favour of dual, and eventually 4X. EC might be better to fully bring this into the light than I am, but the word I get from UCI is that slalom, along with being a secondary event to DH was too hard for the general spectator to follow, and was confusing.
Another thing people don't understand is that at World cup level these days, riders will only concentrate on one event. Maybe they (the riders)want to do both, but they know that doing both will hinder their favoured event. Im sure everyone wants to see a Dual Slalom Sam Hill VS Steve Peat semi final #1 and a Greg Minnaar VS Jared Graves semi #2, but it's never going to happen. Everything has become very VERY specialized.
4X is bringing in many top BMX riders, and while BMX once again, might not be to your taste, there is a huge following of people who think its rad. There's one key point that I hate also. That the tracks are too BMX'Y and that it makes it easy for BMX riders to do well at 4X. Let me get this straight. Nailing a technical rhythum section is WAY harder than nailing a flat turn. BMX riders are skilled bike riders, and their skills are worth getting rewarded.
By all means, I don't want 4X to be BMX'Y, it's very important to seperate the two, to me the feeling of being almost a passenger on a bike through a rough section is as good as it gets, but when the BMX dude comes along and smokes you in a flat turn, it's no fluke, it's coz he knows how to ride a bike.
Can't help but think also, If USA was at the top of world 4X these days also, would the thoughts be different? 5 years ago the lopes V Carter V King battles were epic and well documented. This 4X negativity seems to comes from no country, bar the US. Didn't hear much negativity when the US dominated?
Jill Kintner has been mentioned, and her recent posts on 4X, Jill and I go way back and are good friends, but I can help but think her thoughts on 4X aren't based around her not so successful (atleast not by her standards)
2009 season. She isn't exactly used to struggling, but things didn't go her way this year, Jill has forced the other girls to get onto a serious rethink, just as Lopes and Prokop did to me a few years ago, and that I expect (no trying to pump up my own tires from this year) that my competitors will do for next season. Things always seem tough and frustrating when the situation is less than expected.
I've seen way too many people fall victim to this scenario. Enter a few 4X races, get their ass handed to them, Blame 4X as a sport, instead of the real problem, which is lack of all around skills in this particular discipline, like precision, strength, smoothness, quick thinking, and aggression, and of course that old chestnut...the gate (which I could hardly balance on 5 years ago, just ask EC!)...over it!
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Pm'd ya....
I'm the one who started this thread, and I am no 4X hater, but this thread got a little outa hand. It was not supposed to be a hate thread, but some people just don't like 4X, and that's ok by me.
Afterall it's just bike racing.
Afterall it's just bike racing.
I find myself questioning whether or not its actually hate on 4x (as a race format), or in fact just misguided frustration.
4x has been raced on the world cup for what, 8 years now? Like Jared Mentioned, it just now seems to be finding its feet (something I would agree with, the 4x tracks I saw at the WC level via freecaster were the best I've seen, same goes w/ the US nationals course at Sol Vista). I think what people may be frustrated by (myself included) is that this particular race format has taken so long to get itself figured out so to speak, at least (or especially) in terms of building proper tracks.
"Finding it's feet"....
How did we come to this conclusion Jared? I am being 100% serious with the question, not trying to hate, not trying to start sh1t, I am just curious from someone who is deep in the trenches of 4x....and while I am out of the 4X loop, I would love to learn whats shaking in 4x.
-Is 4X seeing more participants than ever before?
-Is there new 4X series across the globe sprouting up that I do not know about?
-Is freecaster 4X live viewership up from what it was last year? (It was virtually nonexistent in 08')
-Are there 4X only riders landing huge 2010 sponsorship deals?
-Is the UCI turning away sponsorship dollars for the world cup 4X series?
-5 years ago there were 6 guys that were 4X specialist making over $100k a year in salary/bonuses, has that number grown?
P.S.>slalom will not save anything. But properly ran 4X could work.
How did we come to this conclusion Jared? I am being 100% serious with the question, not trying to hate, not trying to start sh1t, I am just curious from someone who is deep in the trenches of 4x....and while I am out of the 4X loop, I would love to learn whats shaking in 4x.
-Is 4X seeing more participants than ever before?
-Is there new 4X series across the globe sprouting up that I do not know about?
-Is freecaster 4X live viewership up from what it was last year? (It was virtually nonexistent in 08')
-Are there 4X only riders landing huge 2010 sponsorship deals?
-Is the UCI turning away sponsorship dollars for the world cup 4X series?
-5 years ago there were 6 guys that were 4X specialist making over $100k a year in salary/bonuses, has that number grown?
P.S.>slalom will not save anything. But properly ran 4X could work.
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Jared, i haven't seen you since your win at worlds.... i remember our discussion in the bar after new zealand worlds and i have to say that you were as motivated as i have ever seen anyone be to get those stripes, was stoked to see it all come together for ya, i think you have more to come, sure the the comp is going to be gunning for you but your in a league of your own right now.
On topic, my post on page 2 sums up a lot of what Jared has said here.
the whole hate on 4x and that it ruined our sport is crazy, and that Dual Slalom would create a miraculous resurgence of riders is equally crazy.
4x has some bugs for sure to be worked out, hopefully it keeps making strides to do so, IMO it's not better or worse then Dual Slalom, it's just 4x.
Dual Slalom has given me some of my favorite racing memories and is a more pure form of racing as there is no interference from other riders.... but it isn't as easy as just putting gates in the grass....the timing system for Dual Slalom is mandatory to get differentials with 4x you can have a complete race with no timing.
Each have positive and negative points, and as a fan of racing and riding MTB's I like both.
As for UCI i am not sure, but the OG Dual Slalom format was a joke when we they had it at World Cups, it was not an official format and i think it effected the interest?, but the Euro riders and fans could care less and it showed with the amount of entries.
Then the Dual format was started and it had a ton of excitement, but then the format turned into more take outs then 4x has now....i called it pick up races, riders behind would crash both riders and the first one to pick up the bike and go would win.
So 4x was developed to try to limit that type of racing....with 4 riders in theory you can't just take a guy out in 2nd as it will let the guy in 4th advance....but there are still a bunch of take outs, I think it's just part of human nature... no matter what the race...i have seen runners in track and field in the longer distances knock each other down trying to get into a better position.
If people think that top DH rides would be involved with gated racing if it was Dual Slalom you are crazy.... the racing is twice as hard from a fatigue stand point, the guys like Sam and Peaty are not going to get a raise for doing good in Dual Slalom.
As i have stated before the only way that the top DH rides will get involved in gated racing consistently is if UCI and companies that sponsor riders put value on it from a combined stand point. i can see it from UCI but sponsors are a bit different, not many 4x only bikes are sold.
It was very frustrating racing World Cups and trying to do both DH and 4x with riders
just focused on one discipline, eventually i had to make a choice to stay competitive, which is how it currently still is, it drove me crazy to fly all around the world to just race 4x.
I think the future of 4x ( if they still do it at World Cups?) be more BMX riders transferring over and racing... the gate is a BMX gate, the head to head racing is familiar and it still has the capability to be portable and exciting from a spectator standpoint, even if your not a fan of Bike racing... sad to say but people like to see events that have crashes, 4x has em, the head to head racing is easy to understand, top 2 advance.
I Hope and think the future of Dual Slalom ( in the states) is that it still gets run at regional events, it's more cost effective and more riders are willing to sign up with the limited contact. I don't see it making it's way back to World Cup or even a National level as it would not prepare riders for World Cup or be a true qualification towards World Championships.
I think all of the pure mtb folks get bummed out as the Dual Slalom format is the purest form of racing against another rider...as the fastest guys wins.
On topic, my post on page 2 sums up a lot of what Jared has said here.
the whole hate on 4x and that it ruined our sport is crazy, and that Dual Slalom would create a miraculous resurgence of riders is equally crazy.
4x has some bugs for sure to be worked out, hopefully it keeps making strides to do so, IMO it's not better or worse then Dual Slalom, it's just 4x.
Dual Slalom has given me some of my favorite racing memories and is a more pure form of racing as there is no interference from other riders.... but it isn't as easy as just putting gates in the grass....the timing system for Dual Slalom is mandatory to get differentials with 4x you can have a complete race with no timing.
Each have positive and negative points, and as a fan of racing and riding MTB's I like both.
As for UCI i am not sure, but the OG Dual Slalom format was a joke when we they had it at World Cups, it was not an official format and i think it effected the interest?, but the Euro riders and fans could care less and it showed with the amount of entries.
Then the Dual format was started and it had a ton of excitement, but then the format turned into more take outs then 4x has now....i called it pick up races, riders behind would crash both riders and the first one to pick up the bike and go would win.
So 4x was developed to try to limit that type of racing....with 4 riders in theory you can't just take a guy out in 2nd as it will let the guy in 4th advance....but there are still a bunch of take outs, I think it's just part of human nature... no matter what the race...i have seen runners in track and field in the longer distances knock each other down trying to get into a better position.
If people think that top DH rides would be involved with gated racing if it was Dual Slalom you are crazy.... the racing is twice as hard from a fatigue stand point, the guys like Sam and Peaty are not going to get a raise for doing good in Dual Slalom.
As i have stated before the only way that the top DH rides will get involved in gated racing consistently is if UCI and companies that sponsor riders put value on it from a combined stand point. i can see it from UCI but sponsors are a bit different, not many 4x only bikes are sold.
It was very frustrating racing World Cups and trying to do both DH and 4x with riders
just focused on one discipline, eventually i had to make a choice to stay competitive, which is how it currently still is, it drove me crazy to fly all around the world to just race 4x.
I think the future of 4x ( if they still do it at World Cups?) be more BMX riders transferring over and racing... the gate is a BMX gate, the head to head racing is familiar and it still has the capability to be portable and exciting from a spectator standpoint, even if your not a fan of Bike racing... sad to say but people like to see events that have crashes, 4x has em, the head to head racing is easy to understand, top 2 advance.
I Hope and think the future of Dual Slalom ( in the states) is that it still gets run at regional events, it's more cost effective and more riders are willing to sign up with the limited contact. I don't see it making it's way back to World Cup or even a National level as it would not prepare riders for World Cup or be a true qualification towards World Championships.
I think all of the pure mtb folks get bummed out as the Dual Slalom format is the purest form of racing against another rider...as the fastest guys wins.
Nice book Mr Carter 
A lot of good info there!
A lot of good info there!
The original purpose of this thread was to discuss the future of 4X. Not hate on it, but things usually get's a little out of hand with this topic.
This is exactly it!
Regional DS races should be like Wednesday night beer leagues in ski racing(or actual Wednesday night beer leagues).
Racing DS, even with 7 of your closest friends is infinitely fun, and super rewarding. If you invest in a set of gates(or find some sticks) you can race, for free, any time you have 2 hands full of people. FreeRiding is LAME. FreeRacing Hell 2 12 year olds with BMX race cruisers of entry level mountainbikes can race DS against each other all day in their back yards if they want to.
People racing on a non-elite level is what builds a stronger elite field in any discipline. Slalom develops the skill necessary to excel at any gravity discipline, and is the cheapest bike race to run, period. It doesn't matter that it doesn't work at the elite level, because it doesn't need to.
Skills transfer, but without an easy to operate grassroots system, we will only have lateral movement from one elite power-based discipline to the other.
What I want, and what I hope we'd all want, is a whole generation of kids who grow up with the idea that racing little bikes against other people for 25 seconds to two minutes at a time is a style of racing, a discipline that encompases all sorts of races involving gating, cornering and fundamental track speed and smoothness. Think regional gated Omnium series, or 3 day weekends full of 5-6 easy to promote and build races. It's accessible for everyone from little kids to 40 year old XC racers.
As far as the Elite level of gated racing... If it's spectacle you want, there is already precedent for awesomeness;
Modern 4x racing is becoming one of the most demanding, most precise sports in the world in any discipline. It's full of Olympic athletes adding even more difficulty to an already demanding task. That's badass.
There is room to expand laterally, there is room(and a pressing need) to grow the roots.
Sport belongs to all of us, not just governing bodies. Discussions like these are what make a difference.
Individuals like Graves and Carter being here and engaging in the discussion, and people who make and sell bikes being engaged in this discussion is phenomenal.
DS, 4x, dual, BSX- It all has a place, and IMO, it all can and will grow if we build a strong grass roots.
The real question is; What can we all do to directly improve the state of gated racing? Start at the bottom. Make races happen. Find a field. Borrow some gates. And let's get everyone racing!
That's a good one!
IF you want 4x or any racing to be successful is needs to be popular with SPECTATORS first. With spectators there is money, with money there will be riders no matter what. I'm gonna go out on a limb and take a guess that Graves or EC wouldn't complain about any course if they got a 1-200k raise (not trying to put words in your mouth...) Just like anything in life, if you want talent, you throw money at it.
There are a few simple rules to make that happen
1. Big
2. Fast
3. Carnage (maybe?)
People like watching guys crash into each other, go fast, and get big air (why do you think moto and bmx are 100000000000x more popular than 4x?) It's not rocket science people, it's marketing. All this talk about "DS v. 4x cry cry cry cry, my panties are too tight" it's stupid. Spectators don't care about your egos and what course YOU wanna ride. They wanna enjoy the racing. Just show your non-mtb friends different 4x tracks and see which they like better, it's very obvious (GO ROTORUA!)
There are a few simple rules to make that happen
1. Big
2. Fast
3. Carnage (maybe?)
People like watching guys crash into each other, go fast, and get big air (why do you think moto and bmx are 100000000000x more popular than 4x?) It's not rocket science people, it's marketing. All this talk about "DS v. 4x cry cry cry cry, my panties are too tight" it's stupid. Spectators don't care about your egos and what course YOU wanna ride. They wanna enjoy the racing. Just show your non-mtb friends different 4x tracks and see which they like better, it's very obvious (GO ROTORUA!)
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Perhaps we could take a hint from NASCAR
I'm glad to see this thread come back from a trollfest and sorry for the wall of text.
Gated racing (DS and MX) in general has some major issues but nothing that cannot be resolved to make it a viable sport for both the promoter and the racers.
The primary issue with gated racing is financial viability. The current practice of racing on a gated course once a year is not financially viable. The expenses of building/rebuildling a course each year, timing, USAC official & rider fees, awards, staff, etc guarantee that a gated race is a financial loss at every event. Promoters are not in the business to loose money.
I'm hoping next year to assist in or run a gated series, but there would be major changes from the current USAC model. Below are my changes, hopefully they will be useful to others in part or whole.
1) The series would be held at one course with a minimum of 6 races. This allows the reuse of a single course spreading the build costs over multiple races. It also improves the course as the more a course is ridden the better it becomes.
2) The racing would be held entirely within a single day. Whether evening races or one day on the weekend. Riders show up to practice, race then go home. Registration is open during practice and closes 30 minutes before racing starts.
3) Course maintenance is done during practice. Courses should to be lightly watered (misted) while riders are on course (in the West here, probably not necessary in the East). There is a bit of a trick to it but it the cheapest and most effective way to really pack the courses after the initial build. Any sheeting of soil from berms should be swept up over the berm and not into the center creating a sand trap.
4) Timing. Gone. There is no need for a timing company for grassroots gated race. This is a major expense that can be eliminated. MX brackets can be built randomly and then run with total points qualifying or double elimination. Total points qualifying gives each bracket 3 runs, riders are scored 1/2/3/4 in each run, the two riders with the least points advance. Double elimination gives each bracket 2 chances to qualify. First run the 1st place rider advances, second run the remaining 3 run again and the 1st place rider from that run advances. This gives riders far more riding, spectators more to watch. The best race may be one of the qualifying heats. DS is a bit trickier. My suggestion is to randomly build pairs and run as a best out of 3. Pairs would race whomever gets 1st twice advances, no differential.
Now I know this will raise hackles with some. No qualifying? Blasphemy! But this is local/grassroots racing. Isn't the intent to build a rider base not shun them. Timed qualifying is fine for National and UCI level races where you want to get to the top riders but really doesn't belong in developmental/fun racing. Which is really what we are looking for, isn't it?
5) USAC sanctioning. Hopefully gone. USAC charges $3 per rider plus the associated fees/expenses of an official. Most races would only need 1 official, but assuming 60 riders. The insurance fees would be $180 + official fees and expenses which could easily be $300+. This is a major expense. If a venue such as a ski resort has insurance already why the need for USAC? If it is on private land, I can understand. But nothing says that a gated race needs to be sanctioned by USAC. I'd prefer to save the money and give that to the venue for expenses incurred in building/maintenance of the course. Maybe talk to BA Anderson if insurance is really necessary.
6) Awards. Hoping for 100% pro payout, which wouldn't be much but it would be on par or more than what they are getting at National level USAC events. The series would be ribbons with an overall trophy at the end of the series.
7) Staff. This can be easily run with 5-6 people. 2 staff at start, one unofficial "official", and two scorers. The two scorers would double as registration and the 3 remaining would provide track maintenance during practice.
8) Concessions. Optional. Good way to offset costs. Don't overcharge for anything. You can charge competitive prices and make a tidy profit. This is honestly where just about any sport really makes it's money.
Assuming 60 riders at $30 each. The gross would be $1800. With 25% pros the total payout would be $450, leaving $1300 (assuming little more for amatuer awards). Since there is no timing or USAC the only other expense is the staff, say $100 each. This leaves $700 for the venue + anything sold in concessions. This is viable.
I'm posting this with the intent of constructive comment that is beneficial to anyone wishing to put on a series of their own. This is not gospel just a framework. Every event/venue is unique and have their own issues, but this isn't rocket science.
Gated racing (DS and MX) in general has some major issues but nothing that cannot be resolved to make it a viable sport for both the promoter and the racers.
The primary issue with gated racing is financial viability. The current practice of racing on a gated course once a year is not financially viable. The expenses of building/rebuildling a course each year, timing, USAC official & rider fees, awards, staff, etc guarantee that a gated race is a financial loss at every event. Promoters are not in the business to loose money.
I'm hoping next year to assist in or run a gated series, but there would be major changes from the current USAC model. Below are my changes, hopefully they will be useful to others in part or whole.
1) The series would be held at one course with a minimum of 6 races. This allows the reuse of a single course spreading the build costs over multiple races. It also improves the course as the more a course is ridden the better it becomes.
2) The racing would be held entirely within a single day. Whether evening races or one day on the weekend. Riders show up to practice, race then go home. Registration is open during practice and closes 30 minutes before racing starts.
3) Course maintenance is done during practice. Courses should to be lightly watered (misted) while riders are on course (in the West here, probably not necessary in the East). There is a bit of a trick to it but it the cheapest and most effective way to really pack the courses after the initial build. Any sheeting of soil from berms should be swept up over the berm and not into the center creating a sand trap.
4) Timing. Gone. There is no need for a timing company for grassroots gated race. This is a major expense that can be eliminated. MX brackets can be built randomly and then run with total points qualifying or double elimination. Total points qualifying gives each bracket 3 runs, riders are scored 1/2/3/4 in each run, the two riders with the least points advance. Double elimination gives each bracket 2 chances to qualify. First run the 1st place rider advances, second run the remaining 3 run again and the 1st place rider from that run advances. This gives riders far more riding, spectators more to watch. The best race may be one of the qualifying heats. DS is a bit trickier. My suggestion is to randomly build pairs and run as a best out of 3. Pairs would race whomever gets 1st twice advances, no differential.
Now I know this will raise hackles with some. No qualifying? Blasphemy! But this is local/grassroots racing. Isn't the intent to build a rider base not shun them. Timed qualifying is fine for National and UCI level races where you want to get to the top riders but really doesn't belong in developmental/fun racing. Which is really what we are looking for, isn't it?
5) USAC sanctioning. Hopefully gone. USAC charges $3 per rider plus the associated fees/expenses of an official. Most races would only need 1 official, but assuming 60 riders. The insurance fees would be $180 + official fees and expenses which could easily be $300+. This is a major expense. If a venue such as a ski resort has insurance already why the need for USAC? If it is on private land, I can understand. But nothing says that a gated race needs to be sanctioned by USAC. I'd prefer to save the money and give that to the venue for expenses incurred in building/maintenance of the course. Maybe talk to BA Anderson if insurance is really necessary.
6) Awards. Hoping for 100% pro payout, which wouldn't be much but it would be on par or more than what they are getting at National level USAC events. The series would be ribbons with an overall trophy at the end of the series.
7) Staff. This can be easily run with 5-6 people. 2 staff at start, one unofficial "official", and two scorers. The two scorers would double as registration and the 3 remaining would provide track maintenance during practice.
8) Concessions. Optional. Good way to offset costs. Don't overcharge for anything. You can charge competitive prices and make a tidy profit. This is honestly where just about any sport really makes it's money.
Assuming 60 riders at $30 each. The gross would be $1800. With 25% pros the total payout would be $450, leaving $1300 (assuming little more for amatuer awards). Since there is no timing or USAC the only other expense is the staff, say $100 each. This leaves $700 for the venue + anything sold in concessions. This is viable.
I'm posting this with the intent of constructive comment that is beneficial to anyone wishing to put on a series of their own. This is not gospel just a framework. Every event/venue is unique and have their own issues, but this isn't rocket science.
They seem to know how to make money and turn a TERRIBLE sport into a commercial success. I'd like to think DH and 4x are more exciting than turning left.Perhaps we could take a hint from NASCAR
Or maybe its more of a reflection on how easy it is to entertain their target audience
Merft- Your idea is so retarded sick, I couldnt think of a better way to run a gated race! I hope that you get a series up and running. It seems like there would be some bugs to work out, but overall it's spot on. It's amazing how The Champ posts up and all of a sudden the thread turns from 4X bashing to "how can we make it better" because before his post it was definitely not constructive and you're naive if you think it was (other than EC's past posts). Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
Geez, go to bed, wake up in the morning, and its like a different thread!
Merft-
that actually sounds kind of similar to how our National and state series are run here in Australia. Timing canned, 3 randomly selected motos, points done from motos, and you progress to the elimination rounds from there, A BMX type race system. It works really well in my eyes, gives everyone atleast 3 races, coz nobody likes to pay their money to race only to get out first round, maybe straight up elimination is fine at world cups, other wise racing could take too long, but its not suitable for smaller races. Also, moto points count towards lane selection for the elimination rounds, and current series rank is used if people are on the same points. 4X has never been huge in Australia,but the people that do race are the ones that are really into it. Its always nice to ride the smaller races, when all the other riders are really passionate about 4X.
Stik -
By Saying "finding it's feet" I mean, there was a big song and dance, and all this hype, when 4X first came in. It was new and something different, but with all new things, the novelty wears off pretty fast, it suffers for a while, but gains momentum again as it becomes more accepted.
Very much like I see what has happened with mountain bike racing as a whole. It took off in the 90's, I wasn't racing internationally in the 90's, but I was racing all over Australia at that time, as a grom, so ill talk about that.
In the 90's here racing was huge, quite a bit bigger than it is today, then it died right off, almost stopped, it struggled hard, I remember our 2001 DH national champs had less than 150 riders, through every category, juniors to veterans, beginners to Elite, the lot! Everyone at the time was saying "racing is dead" Even in the magazines. But now its quite healthy again, it's become a "cool" sport, and rider numbers are growing strongly every year, and not just racing numbers, but across all forms of riding.
"finding its feet" not "found it's feet", theres still a ways to go for sure, but having raced 4X since it was introduced at world cup level in 2002, there are many areas of 4X that are finally getting much better.
mostly to do with the tracks, I think this season there was more of a balance between "mountain bike" style tracks, and "BMX" style tracks. the Addition of rock gardens in most tracks, and BMX style pro sections, as the people watching love to see big jumps.
Other positive things from this season.
- LIVE TV on Eurosport for all the European World Cups, Something DH didn't get.
- UCI are listening to riders more with track designs
- No massive $ deals around, but getting better. Havn't heard of any massive deals around on the DH side of things either though.
- Rider numbers were up this year from the last couple years, especially at the Euro rounds, still not so many numbers at the Canada rounds though.
- There are many more 4X specific riders now, maybe from a BMX background, but who are keen MTB riders now also. By keen MTB riders I mean, they all enjoy getting out for XC rides, DH runs, all that stuff as well. Most BMX guys have been racing since they their age were in the single digits, so for many, after 10-15 years in BMX, they are looking for something a bit different, 4X is a good alternative to BMX, they don't have to start a new sport completely from scratch.
I think it's all part of evolution. It happens to every sport, and sometimes, something that is new and a bit different takes a while get the bugs worked out and gain acceptance.
There are HUGE amounts of groms these days who are getting into the Dirt Jump / Skatepark thing, their bikes never see a trail, or anything you would call "pure, traditional, mountainbiking" But they are still considered mountain bikers. 4X might not be "pure, traditional, mountainbiking" either, But it takes a rider with a large range of skills, that are all very much a part of pure and traditional mountainbiking, to do well at 4X.
A little off topic now, but it was mentioned earlier in the thread about BMX. I don't quite understand why some people talk about the BMX influence of 4X as a bad thing? Watch Mike Day ride and tell me you can't appreciate his skill, and you don't enjoy watching him ride. He (Mike Day) is also probably the most skilled BMX racer on the Planet, many forget he did pretty much all the Norba Nationals for a couple years and went terrible, for whatever reason, he just didnt have what it took to be good at 4X. I can think of many other top BMX names as well that have all been involved quite a bit at World Cup level 4X, Thomas Allier, Damien Godet, Dale Holmes, just to name a few, some had some success, but no where near as much an in BMX. I think most importantly, theres no way in hell that a BMX could be ridden comfortably, or anywhere near as fast as a 4X bike on any World Cup 4X track this year.
I see BMX to 4X, what Moto is to DH. Very good cross training tools, whos skills compliment the other, They share quite a few similarities, but are very different to compete in.
EC - totally agree with everything you said in your novel
I think this just became a novel too.
Merft-
that actually sounds kind of similar to how our National and state series are run here in Australia. Timing canned, 3 randomly selected motos, points done from motos, and you progress to the elimination rounds from there, A BMX type race system. It works really well in my eyes, gives everyone atleast 3 races, coz nobody likes to pay their money to race only to get out first round, maybe straight up elimination is fine at world cups, other wise racing could take too long, but its not suitable for smaller races. Also, moto points count towards lane selection for the elimination rounds, and current series rank is used if people are on the same points. 4X has never been huge in Australia,but the people that do race are the ones that are really into it. Its always nice to ride the smaller races, when all the other riders are really passionate about 4X.
Stik -
By Saying "finding it's feet" I mean, there was a big song and dance, and all this hype, when 4X first came in. It was new and something different, but with all new things, the novelty wears off pretty fast, it suffers for a while, but gains momentum again as it becomes more accepted.
Very much like I see what has happened with mountain bike racing as a whole. It took off in the 90's, I wasn't racing internationally in the 90's, but I was racing all over Australia at that time, as a grom, so ill talk about that.
In the 90's here racing was huge, quite a bit bigger than it is today, then it died right off, almost stopped, it struggled hard, I remember our 2001 DH national champs had less than 150 riders, through every category, juniors to veterans, beginners to Elite, the lot! Everyone at the time was saying "racing is dead" Even in the magazines. But now its quite healthy again, it's become a "cool" sport, and rider numbers are growing strongly every year, and not just racing numbers, but across all forms of riding.
"finding its feet" not "found it's feet", theres still a ways to go for sure, but having raced 4X since it was introduced at world cup level in 2002, there are many areas of 4X that are finally getting much better.
mostly to do with the tracks, I think this season there was more of a balance between "mountain bike" style tracks, and "BMX" style tracks. the Addition of rock gardens in most tracks, and BMX style pro sections, as the people watching love to see big jumps.
Other positive things from this season.
- LIVE TV on Eurosport for all the European World Cups, Something DH didn't get.
- UCI are listening to riders more with track designs
- No massive $ deals around, but getting better. Havn't heard of any massive deals around on the DH side of things either though.
- Rider numbers were up this year from the last couple years, especially at the Euro rounds, still not so many numbers at the Canada rounds though.
- There are many more 4X specific riders now, maybe from a BMX background, but who are keen MTB riders now also. By keen MTB riders I mean, they all enjoy getting out for XC rides, DH runs, all that stuff as well. Most BMX guys have been racing since they their age were in the single digits, so for many, after 10-15 years in BMX, they are looking for something a bit different, 4X is a good alternative to BMX, they don't have to start a new sport completely from scratch.
I think it's all part of evolution. It happens to every sport, and sometimes, something that is new and a bit different takes a while get the bugs worked out and gain acceptance.
There are HUGE amounts of groms these days who are getting into the Dirt Jump / Skatepark thing, their bikes never see a trail, or anything you would call "pure, traditional, mountainbiking" But they are still considered mountain bikers. 4X might not be "pure, traditional, mountainbiking" either, But it takes a rider with a large range of skills, that are all very much a part of pure and traditional mountainbiking, to do well at 4X.
A little off topic now, but it was mentioned earlier in the thread about BMX. I don't quite understand why some people talk about the BMX influence of 4X as a bad thing? Watch Mike Day ride and tell me you can't appreciate his skill, and you don't enjoy watching him ride. He (Mike Day) is also probably the most skilled BMX racer on the Planet, many forget he did pretty much all the Norba Nationals for a couple years and went terrible, for whatever reason, he just didnt have what it took to be good at 4X. I can think of many other top BMX names as well that have all been involved quite a bit at World Cup level 4X, Thomas Allier, Damien Godet, Dale Holmes, just to name a few, some had some success, but no where near as much an in BMX. I think most importantly, theres no way in hell that a BMX could be ridden comfortably, or anywhere near as fast as a 4X bike on any World Cup 4X track this year.
I see BMX to 4X, what Moto is to DH. Very good cross training tools, whos skills compliment the other, They share quite a few similarities, but are very different to compete in.
EC - totally agree with everything you said in your novel
I think this just became a novel too.
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While I am a fan of slalom, 4X is fun, but I think the tracks need to incorporate the DH aspect a little more. I love earthed 5 at the Vigo track with the rock gardens in the 4X course. we need more of that! that is true mountain bike cross.
-KT
-KT
Quoted for the truth. I would love to like watching 4x. But frankly I dont. Graves, you're one of my favorite riders on the circuit, DH or 4x, I enjoy watching your sections in videos, you totally kill it and its rad watching. Your wins this year were phenomenal, you finished a million miles ahead of everybody it seemed like every race, and worlds was rad. But that really highlights the main problem that I have (and every mountain bike race enthusiast that I know) with 4x.
The races all seem to be follow the leader. The race is determined by the gate snap in what seems like 95% of the races. Its probably closer to 70%, but even then, usually whoever starts in front ends in front, and passing only goes on behind them. I'd way rather see good passing going on because there are multiple fast lines, where whoever wins had to take the fastest and most risky daring awesome line, not because they got out in front and everybody else got tied up behind them. I saw Dan artherton passing more then most people this year, but for the most part, everybody just seemed to sit behind. Thats boring to watch. I don't care to see crashes, I want to see intense back and forth action rather then pure fitness and strength at the gate. It makes me feel like I'm watching XC.
Its hard to get stoked on 4x with it follow the leader. Nailing a bmx rhythm section probably takes more skill, but its way COOLER to see some dude take a sneaky inside line on a gnarly rock garden that I KNOW would be hard as fyck and pull it off. Vigo in earthed 5 was pretty much the coolest 4x course I've ever seen.
Edit: I have this to add.
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Ec and Graves I couldnt agree more on what you guys have said.
I to dont get it when people complain about the gate if you are not good at it go practice.
To me the gate in no dif then flat corner skills or jumping or any other skill you might need to win that race plan and simple.
I'm helping putting on a 4x series here in Wa. this winter and we are not using timing we are running motos.
People want the bag for there buck and one timed lap and you go home is not is not how to keep people intrested.
Nats,WC I understand but not at state race or local race.
Gibber
Here is a link to the series
http://http://gobmx.com/pi/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=58&Itemid=56
By the way for those who say 4x is follow the leader Jared take it away!http://http://freecaster.tv/mtb/1008851/nissan-uci-mountain-bike-world-cup-bromont-4x-semi-2-men?page=15
I to dont get it when people complain about the gate if you are not good at it go practice.
To me the gate in no dif then flat corner skills or jumping or any other skill you might need to win that race plan and simple.
I'm helping putting on a 4x series here in Wa. this winter and we are not using timing we are running motos.
People want the bag for there buck and one timed lap and you go home is not is not how to keep people intrested.
Nats,WC I understand but not at state race or local race.
Gibber
Here is a link to the series
http://http://gobmx.com/pi/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=58&Itemid=56
By the way for those who say 4x is follow the leader Jared take it away!http://http://freecaster.tv/mtb/1008851/nissan-uci-mountain-bike-world-cup-bromont-4x-semi-2-men?page=15
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- LIVE TV on Eurosport for all the European World Cups, Something DH didn't get.
I watched a bunch of European DH races on Eurosport when I was in Serbia this past summer....
I watched a bunch of European DH races on Eurosport when I was in Serbia this past summer....
maybe they do show DH races, pre recorderd and shown a few weeks later, after being condensed down for maybe a half hour, or 1 hour time slot, but 4X was shown live, all races, as it happened, DH wasn't.
If someone wanted to watch some cars make left turns all day and have one close call after another, they could just sit on top of one of the parking structures towards the inside of the loading/unloading loop at LAX. Great view and non-stop action.Or maybe its more of a reflection on how easy it is to entertain their target audience
graves...your response to my questions was golden...someone needs to paste that and go change the 4X world. Well said and congrats on not only your successes, but being a fine represenative for cycling.
Seems like lots of spectators liked the Vigo track but did the riders like it?
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Cheers Stik, I just feel that 4X has nowhere near reached it's potential, and something I plan on helping with as much as I can once my racing carreer is done, as well as doing what I can now, is to keep helping it along (hopefully it won't need help by then though)
This talk of canning 4X in favour of slalom just hits a button with me everytime. If in the future, all 4X tracks are dialled, with plenty of passing opportunities (passing for the guy with track speed, and skills, not for the guy who has a hard on for take outs in corners) And people still don't like 4X, then maybe some talk of it being canned could be justified, but that point is still a long way off, and If 4X does reach a point where it gets dialled in, I can't see it not getting huge.
Vigo -
Yeah it was a really fun track, some bits worked well, others not so much, I think it was a step in the right direction, but there was still too much crashing going on. Like Ive said before, people like to see crashes and all that, but as a rider, when theres too much of it going on, and someone else brings you down, it's just plain annoying and frustrating. Doesn't need to look like a circus act. Entertaining spectators is one part of racing, especially at world cup level, but if nobody wants to race baecause of all the take out, thats an equally big issue.
My biggest issue with current 4X is first straights, they are too short and not enough to speperate the rides. Currently, whoever qualifies fastest, gets lane choice (which is a good system) but therefore has the inside lane on the mega short 1st straight, therefore generally gets the holeshot, and a lot of the time, wins.
Fort william is probably the only track on the world cup circuit that has a 1st straight that can be won from any lane, but it also has another big problem of not all lanes being equal, I go lane 2 there everytime, as it always seems to be the most groomed and best transition to the dirt out of the gate. More effort needs to be put into making, especially the 1st straight, even for every lane, to take emphasis off qualifying and the gate. Maribor this year had about an 8inch drop from the tip of the gate when it dropped, to the dirt, and other lanes were perfect, how is that even for everyone? Fine for me since I qualified fastest, but not rad for everyone else.
Maybe I shouldn't complain about this, as this problem works into my favour with current 4X tracks, but its just not fair for all riders, which is hurting 4X.
This is one area we need to look to BMX a little bit, and in particular BMX supercross, but done with an MTB aspect. Where it is still an advantage to qualify well and have the inside lane, but it is still easily possible to win from any lane.
This talk of canning 4X in favour of slalom just hits a button with me everytime. If in the future, all 4X tracks are dialled, with plenty of passing opportunities (passing for the guy with track speed, and skills, not for the guy who has a hard on for take outs in corners) And people still don't like 4X, then maybe some talk of it being canned could be justified, but that point is still a long way off, and If 4X does reach a point where it gets dialled in, I can't see it not getting huge.
Vigo -
Yeah it was a really fun track, some bits worked well, others not so much, I think it was a step in the right direction, but there was still too much crashing going on. Like Ive said before, people like to see crashes and all that, but as a rider, when theres too much of it going on, and someone else brings you down, it's just plain annoying and frustrating. Doesn't need to look like a circus act. Entertaining spectators is one part of racing, especially at world cup level, but if nobody wants to race baecause of all the take out, thats an equally big issue.
My biggest issue with current 4X is first straights, they are too short and not enough to speperate the rides. Currently, whoever qualifies fastest, gets lane choice (which is a good system) but therefore has the inside lane on the mega short 1st straight, therefore generally gets the holeshot, and a lot of the time, wins.
Fort william is probably the only track on the world cup circuit that has a 1st straight that can be won from any lane, but it also has another big problem of not all lanes being equal, I go lane 2 there everytime, as it always seems to be the most groomed and best transition to the dirt out of the gate. More effort needs to be put into making, especially the 1st straight, even for every lane, to take emphasis off qualifying and the gate. Maribor this year had about an 8inch drop from the tip of the gate when it dropped, to the dirt, and other lanes were perfect, how is that even for everyone? Fine for me since I qualified fastest, but not rad for everyone else.
Maybe I shouldn't complain about this, as this problem works into my favour with current 4X tracks, but its just not fair for all riders, which is hurting 4X.
This is one area we need to look to BMX a little bit, and in particular BMX supercross, but done with an MTB aspect. Where it is still an advantage to qualify well and have the inside lane, but it is still easily possible to win from any lane.
Great to see this thread is now back on track! Thanks to Jared and EC for steering it away from the usual 4X sucks DS rules argument. I think this could now be quite productive. I know its being watched by a lot of people who probably wont get involved, but I know they will read with interest. Id encourage those people to get signed up to Ridemonkey and contribute if they can.
Jared has hit the nail on the head with his explanation of the backlash the sport has experienced since it became a WC event in 2002. It came into place with a lot of excitement and expectation. I remember the cover shot from Dirt in 99, taken at the Troy Lee race. I remember watching the DHBMX at Woodward and thinking it would be awesome on a big bike. This excitement led me to believe that 4X as a discipline, on a World Cup stage would be ridiculously good - better than all previous versions of 4 man racing.
In 2002 the UCI employed Frank Roman, legendary French downhiller, as 4X track designer for the World Cup Series. I was the local guy at Fort William, so I was the one doing the actual building work. It was great to meet Frank in person one of my heroes but I felt he didnt put enough effort into his work. I was passionate about 4X and Frank made only one site visit, for only one day to Fort William to come up with a design for the track. We talked about the design and Frank said hed send through his drawings by email for me to work from, but they never came. The next time I saw Frank was during the actual World Cup week.
With no drawings to go from, I just built what I wanted, within the parameters set by the organisers with regards to budget, and space available on the hill. Frank was very unhappy when he came back and saw what Id built but since I thought his original ideas where pretty strange, it wasnt a problem for me. The riders seemed to like it ,so that was what mattered. Frank worked in a similar way with all the other World Cup events. In those cases the tracks included Franks ideas and some riders didnt like the tracks. By the following year, rider sentiment towards Frank had become so bad that he was sacked after the race at Alpd Huez (Remember the photo of Greg Minnaar riding with Is this 4X scrawled on his shirt?). 2 weeks before the 2003 Worlds in Lugano, the UCI asked if I could build the 4X track a tall order in such a short time, especially with the stormy weather the area usually gets in August. We worked like mad and it turned out pretty well. After that, the UCI asked me to take on the whole series from 2004. I jumped at the chance.
Anyway, this could get very longwinded so Ill try to be brief.
Season 02 and 03 were a big let down after the initial hype. Riders, media and the public were all disillusioned. I came in with big ideas of changing the sport and moving it in the right direction. Big tracks like DHBMX. I quickly found that this was going to be very difficult. I brought in a new way of working where the UCI 4X designer spent a lot more time onsite, working with the machinery at all times to ensure the track was built the way I wanted it to be. This meant an initial site visit for a day or 2, followed a few weeks later by a 2 week building period followed by the whole of the final race week. I then pushed organisers for more resources to build the tracks more machinery, materials, time etc, etc. Still resources were never going to allow me to build on the scale of the DHBMX.
Once I got started, I was disappointed to see that the budgets were much lower than Id expected for a WC event. No Swatch, or Diesel, or Vans as individual sponsors for the 4X meant organisers had to shell out themselves for building the tracks. We were constantly trying to build a lot more than would normally be possible with the budget. Its no secret that sponsorship has been hard to come by in MTB over the last decade. Organisers were reluctant to pay out a large chunk of hard earned cash for building the tracks. This was just a difficult situation that we had to make the best of. This is unfortunately still the case today with a few exceptions. The organisers were great and usually did fork out a lot more than they initially intended to, so I must say a big thanks to them for that.
However, the tracks still needed to be bigger and better. Since 4X didnt have a historical base, the only way to evolve the sport was by trying new ideas at World Cup level. Unfortunate that the WC had to be the test lab but there was no other option.
Id always made a point of talking to riders to get their opinions. EC, you always had insightful, objective opinions that influenced me greatly with the track designs. These ideas were always for the good of the race as a whole. Once you left the WC scene, I especially missed the flag positioning suggestions , the small stacks of pebbles! Some riders gave opinions that were self-serving, wanting track modifications to favour their strong points. I had to sift through a lot of dodgy opinions to get down to the useful suggestions.
At the time there were a lot of BMX racers coming into 4X. A lot of these guys were particularly vocal about track design. Inevitably, with so much BMX influence, tracks did become more BMX like. However, as Jared mentioned above, you couldnt possibly ride a BMX down those tracks faster than an MTB. This is even more the case today. I could never understand media reports claiming the tracks were just BMX tracks. Maybe they just werent paying enough attention. Anyway, riders (from DH especially) asked for rougher tracks so this is the way they went.
Since the start used a BMX type gate and the UCI used a BMX rule of no obstacles in the first 10m, the start was very important. As Jared said above, passing guys at WC level is difficult so, get in front at the start and youve got a damn good chance of winning. Obviously, hardtails were much faster out of the gate and over the first 10m. Even with rougher and looser surfaces lower down the track. The start was disproportionately important for the race. In Vigo 2006, I tried to put the start gate on a steep surface. My theory was that the steeper the gate, the harder it would be to outsnap anyone, since gravity would help throw everyone out of the gate together. We used this in first practice and most of the DH guys liked it, however the BMX guys hated it and under a lot of pressure, I was forced to dig out a big hole in the slope to put the gate back on level ground. The BMX gate was here to stay and riders would just have to train at the gate, like everybody else, BMXer, DHer, whatever.
(....continued in next post as the limit is 11000 characters!)
Jared has hit the nail on the head with his explanation of the backlash the sport has experienced since it became a WC event in 2002. It came into place with a lot of excitement and expectation. I remember the cover shot from Dirt in 99, taken at the Troy Lee race. I remember watching the DHBMX at Woodward and thinking it would be awesome on a big bike. This excitement led me to believe that 4X as a discipline, on a World Cup stage would be ridiculously good - better than all previous versions of 4 man racing.
In 2002 the UCI employed Frank Roman, legendary French downhiller, as 4X track designer for the World Cup Series. I was the local guy at Fort William, so I was the one doing the actual building work. It was great to meet Frank in person one of my heroes but I felt he didnt put enough effort into his work. I was passionate about 4X and Frank made only one site visit, for only one day to Fort William to come up with a design for the track. We talked about the design and Frank said hed send through his drawings by email for me to work from, but they never came. The next time I saw Frank was during the actual World Cup week.
With no drawings to go from, I just built what I wanted, within the parameters set by the organisers with regards to budget, and space available on the hill. Frank was very unhappy when he came back and saw what Id built but since I thought his original ideas where pretty strange, it wasnt a problem for me. The riders seemed to like it ,so that was what mattered. Frank worked in a similar way with all the other World Cup events. In those cases the tracks included Franks ideas and some riders didnt like the tracks. By the following year, rider sentiment towards Frank had become so bad that he was sacked after the race at Alpd Huez (Remember the photo of Greg Minnaar riding with Is this 4X scrawled on his shirt?). 2 weeks before the 2003 Worlds in Lugano, the UCI asked if I could build the 4X track a tall order in such a short time, especially with the stormy weather the area usually gets in August. We worked like mad and it turned out pretty well. After that, the UCI asked me to take on the whole series from 2004. I jumped at the chance.
Anyway, this could get very longwinded so Ill try to be brief.
Season 02 and 03 were a big let down after the initial hype. Riders, media and the public were all disillusioned. I came in with big ideas of changing the sport and moving it in the right direction. Big tracks like DHBMX. I quickly found that this was going to be very difficult. I brought in a new way of working where the UCI 4X designer spent a lot more time onsite, working with the machinery at all times to ensure the track was built the way I wanted it to be. This meant an initial site visit for a day or 2, followed a few weeks later by a 2 week building period followed by the whole of the final race week. I then pushed organisers for more resources to build the tracks more machinery, materials, time etc, etc. Still resources were never going to allow me to build on the scale of the DHBMX.
Once I got started, I was disappointed to see that the budgets were much lower than Id expected for a WC event. No Swatch, or Diesel, or Vans as individual sponsors for the 4X meant organisers had to shell out themselves for building the tracks. We were constantly trying to build a lot more than would normally be possible with the budget. Its no secret that sponsorship has been hard to come by in MTB over the last decade. Organisers were reluctant to pay out a large chunk of hard earned cash for building the tracks. This was just a difficult situation that we had to make the best of. This is unfortunately still the case today with a few exceptions. The organisers were great and usually did fork out a lot more than they initially intended to, so I must say a big thanks to them for that.
However, the tracks still needed to be bigger and better. Since 4X didnt have a historical base, the only way to evolve the sport was by trying new ideas at World Cup level. Unfortunate that the WC had to be the test lab but there was no other option.
Id always made a point of talking to riders to get their opinions. EC, you always had insightful, objective opinions that influenced me greatly with the track designs. These ideas were always for the good of the race as a whole. Once you left the WC scene, I especially missed the flag positioning suggestions , the small stacks of pebbles! Some riders gave opinions that were self-serving, wanting track modifications to favour their strong points. I had to sift through a lot of dodgy opinions to get down to the useful suggestions.
At the time there were a lot of BMX racers coming into 4X. A lot of these guys were particularly vocal about track design. Inevitably, with so much BMX influence, tracks did become more BMX like. However, as Jared mentioned above, you couldnt possibly ride a BMX down those tracks faster than an MTB. This is even more the case today. I could never understand media reports claiming the tracks were just BMX tracks. Maybe they just werent paying enough attention. Anyway, riders (from DH especially) asked for rougher tracks so this is the way they went.
Since the start used a BMX type gate and the UCI used a BMX rule of no obstacles in the first 10m, the start was very important. As Jared said above, passing guys at WC level is difficult so, get in front at the start and youve got a damn good chance of winning. Obviously, hardtails were much faster out of the gate and over the first 10m. Even with rougher and looser surfaces lower down the track. The start was disproportionately important for the race. In Vigo 2006, I tried to put the start gate on a steep surface. My theory was that the steeper the gate, the harder it would be to outsnap anyone, since gravity would help throw everyone out of the gate together. We used this in first practice and most of the DH guys liked it, however the BMX guys hated it and under a lot of pressure, I was forced to dig out a big hole in the slope to put the gate back on level ground. The BMX gate was here to stay and riders would just have to train at the gate, like everybody else, BMXer, DHer, whatever.
(....continued in next post as the limit is 11000 characters!)
For 2007, I wanted to try and make things much rougher. With Vigo, I got the opportunity I wanted. The area to build the track had lots of large disc shaped boulders half buried in the dirt. Every single slab of rock in the rock section was collected, placed and positioned precisely with a digger nothing natural at all. Above and below this rock section, which comprised of 3 straights and 3 turns, the track was similar to previous designs.
Riders arrived to look at the track and many seemed to like it. Some hated it. All were surprised. As Jared said, there were too many crashes. Riders had already seen how the UCI Commissaires would almost never give a red card so the kamikaze moves came out. However, as an experiment it worked. The crowd loved it and it added a real MTB element that had previously been lacking.
Unfortunately, many riders had got into a habit of moaning about anything possible, rather than mentioning good points. Rather than commenting on the rock sections, some riders fell into the old habit criticised things like the final corner that was pretty inconsequential anyway. Its always so much easier to appear knowledgeable by slating something than by bigging it up. Also, there appeared to be a trend with some that if a rider didnt win the race it was somehow down to a problem with the track. This negativity from top riders seeped deep into the 4X culture.
Anyway, this goes on and one but slowly, things have been changing. Riders have realised that generally you cant race both 4X and DH and expect to do well in both. As DH is the main event at the moment, many riders moved to race only DH. This was a big loss to the sport but I cant say I blame them. I would love to see Steve Peat racing 4X but Im happy hes won so many WC series and now hes World Champ. Anyone remember his passes at Vigo 4X that took him to 2nd place in 2006 (I think)? Jared is one of a handful who can still do both competitively.
I would love to see the UCI bring in a title for Gravity overall as seen at Sea Otter. There are more riders that do both 4X and DH than people think. I think they should be recognised for this athletic and skilled achievement. I dont want to take anything away from DH but I want to see the best riders racing 4X. Maybe over time, a Gravity title would help change this?
One of the biggest problems with the way 4X has been run at WC level is in the presentation of the event. This has still not changed and it is solely a problem of budget. The 4X is primarily a spectator event and as such should be produced as a show. Fireworks, loud music, bars, lasers, good informative exciting commentary, cheerleaders etc. With all this in place, the actual track design and quality of racing is less important. The crowd love the whole show. A good example of how it should go would be Houffalize 4X. Big crowds who love to watch people on bikes racing down the hill together in the dark. This could bring me onto the topic of the target audience for 4X but maybe some other time.
4X suffered initially as there werent many tracks. This is still the case but its improving all the time. This means its now getting easier to get into 4X. There are loads of new young riders coming into the sport. Europe has huge strength in depth now in 4X (110 riders at Maribor WC, 140 at Schladming, 130 at Houffalize, dont quote me, this is just from memory). I am sure that this trend will follow in North America over the coming years. Mitch Ropelato is an amazing rider who races both DH and 4X at the top level. Im sure he alone will inspire a new generation of North American 4X racers. Could we see an American 4X World Champ in the next 5 years? I think so. Wyn Masters from New Zealand - great 4X and DH rider. South American 4X is getting bigger, as is South East Asian 4X. Itll take time for 4X to have the same strength in depth that it has in Europe, but it is coming slowly. Its also worth noting that 4X still has a lot of development to come within Europe too.
Enough already. Ill get onto the subject of the start straights and the first corners later on. They are much more down to simple logistics than any kind of design idea. Also, the equality of each line on the first straight. Ill cover that next time. I think there is a good future for 4X. Its still young and still developing. It WILL finally find its feet and deliver on its promises as the biggest chance MTB has to appeal to the non bike riding masses. The Fourcross Alliance has been a long time coming, but I think they are in a great position to push the sport forward. Go and support them. There is a huge amount of positivity coming in at grass roots level that will help them push through their ideas (150 plus riders at every UK National 4X event, etc). The 2009 WC season was a big improvement in many ways as Jared mentioned and Freecaster numbers are on the up. 4X future is bright.
These are random incoherent ramblings. Reading back through what Ive written I havent got my point across as I wanted to. I could elaborate tenfold on any of these points, so feel free to comment, but for the moment, Im off riding and digging in the rain in the UK. MTB flat out rules. Full stop!
Phil
Riders arrived to look at the track and many seemed to like it. Some hated it. All were surprised. As Jared said, there were too many crashes. Riders had already seen how the UCI Commissaires would almost never give a red card so the kamikaze moves came out. However, as an experiment it worked. The crowd loved it and it added a real MTB element that had previously been lacking.
Unfortunately, many riders had got into a habit of moaning about anything possible, rather than mentioning good points. Rather than commenting on the rock sections, some riders fell into the old habit criticised things like the final corner that was pretty inconsequential anyway. Its always so much easier to appear knowledgeable by slating something than by bigging it up. Also, there appeared to be a trend with some that if a rider didnt win the race it was somehow down to a problem with the track. This negativity from top riders seeped deep into the 4X culture.
Anyway, this goes on and one but slowly, things have been changing. Riders have realised that generally you cant race both 4X and DH and expect to do well in both. As DH is the main event at the moment, many riders moved to race only DH. This was a big loss to the sport but I cant say I blame them. I would love to see Steve Peat racing 4X but Im happy hes won so many WC series and now hes World Champ. Anyone remember his passes at Vigo 4X that took him to 2nd place in 2006 (I think)? Jared is one of a handful who can still do both competitively.
I would love to see the UCI bring in a title for Gravity overall as seen at Sea Otter. There are more riders that do both 4X and DH than people think. I think they should be recognised for this athletic and skilled achievement. I dont want to take anything away from DH but I want to see the best riders racing 4X. Maybe over time, a Gravity title would help change this?
One of the biggest problems with the way 4X has been run at WC level is in the presentation of the event. This has still not changed and it is solely a problem of budget. The 4X is primarily a spectator event and as such should be produced as a show. Fireworks, loud music, bars, lasers, good informative exciting commentary, cheerleaders etc. With all this in place, the actual track design and quality of racing is less important. The crowd love the whole show. A good example of how it should go would be Houffalize 4X. Big crowds who love to watch people on bikes racing down the hill together in the dark. This could bring me onto the topic of the target audience for 4X but maybe some other time.
4X suffered initially as there werent many tracks. This is still the case but its improving all the time. This means its now getting easier to get into 4X. There are loads of new young riders coming into the sport. Europe has huge strength in depth now in 4X (110 riders at Maribor WC, 140 at Schladming, 130 at Houffalize, dont quote me, this is just from memory). I am sure that this trend will follow in North America over the coming years. Mitch Ropelato is an amazing rider who races both DH and 4X at the top level. Im sure he alone will inspire a new generation of North American 4X racers. Could we see an American 4X World Champ in the next 5 years? I think so. Wyn Masters from New Zealand - great 4X and DH rider. South American 4X is getting bigger, as is South East Asian 4X. Itll take time for 4X to have the same strength in depth that it has in Europe, but it is coming slowly. Its also worth noting that 4X still has a lot of development to come within Europe too.
Enough already. Ill get onto the subject of the start straights and the first corners later on. They are much more down to simple logistics than any kind of design idea. Also, the equality of each line on the first straight. Ill cover that next time. I think there is a good future for 4X. Its still young and still developing. It WILL finally find its feet and deliver on its promises as the biggest chance MTB has to appeal to the non bike riding masses. The Fourcross Alliance has been a long time coming, but I think they are in a great position to push the sport forward. Go and support them. There is a huge amount of positivity coming in at grass roots level that will help them push through their ideas (150 plus riders at every UK National 4X event, etc). The 2009 WC season was a big improvement in many ways as Jared mentioned and Freecaster numbers are on the up. 4X future is bright.
These are random incoherent ramblings. Reading back through what Ive written I havent got my point across as I wanted to. I could elaborate tenfold on any of these points, so feel free to comment, but for the moment, Im off riding and digging in the rain in the UK. MTB flat out rules. Full stop!
Phil
Yeah Phil, thanks for the insight. Very cool thread with all these movers and shakers in the 4X world.
I am still curious about making the first straight work well if the spot does not permit a long one.
P.S. You coming snowboarding again this winter?
I am still curious about making the first straight work well if the spot does not permit a long one.
P.S. You coming snowboarding again this winter?
A lot of good points brought up....but this 'gravity omnium' is key. Problem is when they did this at the sea otter the genius marketing people in the MTB biz (insert sarcasm) did nothing with it. Media did not report on it either (or nothing more than a quick one liner). A pretty huge feather in anyones cap (to win/do well in an omnium) that was completely ignored my the 'scene'.
They should put the bulk of prize money on an overall, since news usually only follows the coin.