[Cru_Jones]

That must have been the legendary times when SWATCH was the big sponsor and everybody was queuing to put some money into the sport as well.
Too bad, but those times are long gone, and comparing 4cross in today's precarious economic situation to Dual in that goldrush-like era is not fair.

As far as i can remember it was after the Swatch times, when the national series were called Twingo-Cup (well, maybe in the US a twingo wouldn't count as a car...). Maybe the economical situation is not the same now (even though some car companys should be happy to get rid of some cars ;-) ), but those prizes disappeared long before the economical crisis came. And same for the number of participants.

By the way, are you aware that Powerbike Winterthur is set to build a 4cross course this winter? That's going to be right at the outskirts of a city, which sounds very promising to me.

Yes, I know about those plans, and I hope it is going to be a positive surprise for me. I still wonder whether a real worthy 40 second 4X track can be built with this little decline (and last weekend when I was at the BMX track there were rumors it is not going to happen anyway) , but I will be happy and thankful If they prove it is possible. Don't forget I am not a 4X hater, I am just bored of racing ****ty 4X tracks, where with the same amount of money and work could have been an exciting DS track.[/QUOTE]

And another by the way: As the Swiss racing series is a medley of Dual, Duel and half-baked 4cross on BMX tracks, this does not serve as an argument for any format. It rather shows that even Dual is no guarantee for grass-roots success. But most of all: When was the last time you've seen one of Switzerland's top 4cross racers compete in a race of the national series?

Thats just proves what I want to say: So many organisers doing the effort to switch from DS to 4X because riders said they need it, ending then with a ****ty 4X track because they don't have the money and land to build a proper one and in the end nobody likes it. (By the way, there are no more 4X races on BMX tracks). So ask those Swiss WC riders who still do the Swiss series, I am sure most if not all of them will tell you that Baltersweil is the only race they really like, and this is the only "new school" (berms, jumps, rythm section) dual slalom in the series. So there is my point: It is a pitty to see organisers investing money into 4X tracks where the circumstances for a good 4X track are not given. In the end most of the racers don't like it, participant numbers are falling and nobody gained from it.

My bottom line is that it comes down to a philosphical question:
If you're confronted with problems during an evolutionary process, how do you react? Do you go back to something that seems to have worked in the good old days, or do you see the problems as a challenge and a reason to further push that evolution forward? One way of reacting gets you an i-Pod, the other gets you back into a cave, painting deer figures on a wall... I do not consider myself a wannabe-caveman.

Well if you want to call me a caveman then do so, this will not end my love for DS (and proper 4X). If you read my post correct you will get that I am not saying we should bring 4X to an end, it might be the right thing for the big guys if it is done well (which in my eyes still needs some evolution), but for most of the weekend warriors DS is a more realistic solution, given that most of the organisers are on a tight budget and it is by far more easier to build a DS that is fun for most participants than a 4X track.
And, by the way, DS is still evoluting as well, none of the DS 5 years ago looked like Crankworks DS. And it can go into many directions, pumptrack-style DS as well as much more DH oriented giant slalom. In my inner eyes I can see giant slalom being more of two parallel mini-DH tracks, where downhill guys on their DH bikes can battle out against BMX guys on hartails.

 

[iRider]

You did see my post (#266)?

the thread is working
4x in america!! http://www.pinkbike.com/news/washington-4x-series-2009.html

 

[JaredGraves]

Just want to mention a couple other things that have been brought up.

Custom bikes - I think their are actually quite a few more stock bikes getting around than people think. Yes my bike is custom geometry, but my custom geometry is also what is stock on the Medium size Yeti DJ, available to nayone who wants it for 2010. The only thing custom on my bike from stock is the head tube has been shaved down, Shaved with a Headset facing tool, that any good bike shop would have. So really not custom at all.

Joost also rides a bone stock Giant STP, Roger Rinderknecht on a stock GT, the same frame that was the Lopes signature edition from his time at GT. The list goes on, there are a couple custom frames getting around, but the majority are riding stock frames.

Also a point brought up in passing conversation by my dad last night. Every DH rider has a hardtail/Dirtjump/4X type bike, I cant think of one rider that is serious about the sport that doesn't, so Saying 4X type bike sales are low is not entirely true. Maybe 4X race specific bikes are, but bikes of this type, that are very capable as being a fully competitive 4X race bikes are sold in huge amounts.

Also the cost of 4X tracks, we have a pretty decent and damn good fun 4X track to ride here in my hometown of Toowoomba, we hold a few races a year on it and actually have the state championships this weekend. The track was put together for a few thousand dollars and like I said, is a load of fun to ride, for everyone.

4X has driven women away from our sport, WRONG! No one is forcing women to race it, so how can it drive them away? Womens numbers at races have always been low, DS or 4X, and in fact this year, at many World Cups the womens 4X numbers were rivalling the DH numbers. The tracks are scary for women.....so when the Champery World Cup DH was thrown at the women a couple years ago, that wasn't scary? that track was off its head! I saw some women off in the bushes, mid track in tears during practice! Thats the sort of thing that will force women away from Gravity MTB disciplines. It was a good thing I think for a world cup race for the men, but 90% of women found it way too much.

4X tracks at All levels are not hard for anyone to ride, they are just hard to ride fast. I would put money on whoever the female that said that to you Todd had some bad experieces with 4X and was another person who decided 4X was the problem, not that she maybe wasn't the most suitably equipped athlete to be as competitive at 4X as maybe she had origionally wanted to be.

I Think also if their actually were any pro DH guys that would be all about racing slalom at World Cups, they would have posted up on here like many of the top 4X pros have. The factthat not one has shows they aren't really all that fussed on slalom.

It's been mentioned before that someone has heard from somewhere that Sam Hill would race slalom at world cups, I can guarantee that wouldnt happen, the only reason he does slalom events at races like crankworks/sea otter ect, are that they are fun for him, and good training races, results are not a priority for him.

I think we have established that the DS would be a step backwards as far as world cup level races go, so why are people still flogging that horse?

* I apologize for bad spelling/punctuation, this was all typed very fast

 

[connor]

there's indoor 4x in BC too.

http://www.pipelinebikepark.com/index.php?categoryid=8&p2_articleid=43

and it super fun/cheap/low key, even though there are olympic bmxers, WC DH riders, BC Cup DH champ etc riding.

and ladies.

 

[Mudstud]

@ Cru_Jones

Maybe I missed something here (I doubt that), but is there any 4cross courses in Switzerland, apart from the one in Zermatt? I don't know any. Your post sounds like 4cross has been tried in Switzerland - and failed. All that has been tried has been 4cross races on Duel or BMX tracks - no wonder they were not that convincing.

It would be fair to at least give those people a chance that would like to try it, instead of starting the trash talking before building has started. As far as I am concerned, two to three permanent 4Cross-courses (and a whole lot more dual courses, for the record) would make perfect sense in Switzerland. Apart from Winterthur, I would like to see them in the Egerkingen area (same distance for riders from Berne, Basel, Lucerne and Zurich, so that would be a perfect place to meet and train) and one in the French Speaking part of the country, region Lausanne. That would do absolutely.

My main point is that a number of course projects are in the pipeline, not only in Switzerland. And that the ongoing discussion to skip 4cross in favour of dual is not helpful for those projects. On the other hand, the very open-minded thoughts of the likes of Phil, Jared and E.C on various aspects of course design are more than welcome as input for those projects.

Concerning the lack of media interest: In the US this seems to be the case for 4cross, in Europa this is the case for Dual. The reason is the nationalist perspective on racing. In countries where a lot of racers do well in 4cross, it gets the due attention from at least the special interest media, at times even more.

 

[Salty4X]

I have been an active participant of this particular message board for over eight years and have 1700+ posts. I respect new comers and encourage pros like Jared, Joost, & Scott and those like Zdednek, Chris, & Laurens to join in but newbies here, as in any other forum, should not expect any special treatment or status simply due to their name, sponsors, or races won. Experience counts but, explain and document that experience. Writing a lot or yelling more does not make your point any more valid.

You are bragging about how long and how many posts you have on RM? Those riders and two World Champs already have special status as successful professional riders. No matter how new to this pit of a forum they are, they should get your respect, if you care for mtb racing as you claim to. Just an FYI, no one needs to earn respect by typing replies on a forum. That is the nerdiest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Chris Roberts]

Just pick up on the Media points.

TV - they love it thats why then show it live on Eurosport and repeat it another 5 times during the same week.

Magazine coverage - this is something we have discussed and will explain.

Ok a magazine will have a number of freelance photographers that they buy photos from for World Cups.

A day in the life of World Cup Photographer –(or as I see it)
So 8.30am a photographer at a world cup goes out for the start of Downhill practice, off up the mountain with all his kit & will stay there nearly all day getting the shot he wants then after practice finishes makes his way down and into the press room.

He will choose the best shots from the day, may be e-mail the shots back to the office, may have to write blog, catch up with the other guys in the press room, or something & by now it say 6-7pm at night?
Now he has a choice got back out and upto the fourcross track and start work again or he can just go to go and have a meal and a drink with his friends.

Lets say he does go back upto the fourcross track takes loads of great photos and then goes back to the press office but to only find its shuts when practice finished!

So what happens is the downhill news story for that day has already been sent in, because the press office is closed he can not send in a report or photos so he has wasted his time!

I have been to a few world cups this year were the press office closed before or when practice or even qualifying has finished!

8.30am the next morning the photographer is back up the mountain again to photo the downhill again, so the fourcross story never makes it to website etc.

This is the reason i believe is part of the reason why fourcross does not get the media attention because the photographers are working very very hard over a World Cup weekend to get everything covered.

If any professional photographer is reading this and would like to comment on this theory or indeed explain what actually happens that would be great.

Still any more feedback is always good.

O after a quick conversation with an experancied photographer light could also be factor becuase 4X is always raced in the dark.

 

[Zdenek Pol]

Here is the list of all 4X tracks existing in the Czech Republic. Some of them are not in the best condition or up-to-date, some are very easy but most of them are ready to ride. Anyone can simply put the parenthesised coordinates to http://maps.google.com/ to locate a particular venue.

Currently in use:
- Prague Polis.13 (50.049115,14.33485)
- Litomerice (50.550842,14.133083)
- Mlada Boleslav (50.446848,14.935547)
- Kraslice (50.341676,12.499684)
- Utery (49.934122,13.002276)
- As (50.233246,12.206448)
- Dolni Morava (50.131627,16.797858)
- Tosovice (49.694169,17.841184)
- Sumperk (49.989803,16.989089)
- Prerov (49.477343,17.423757)
- Velke Mezirici (49.359895,16.026579)
- Moravka (49.591245,18.521227)
- Znojmo (48.848932,16.073067)

Unused for racing:
- Bozi Dar (50.407234,12.930434)
- Nejdek (50.322828,12.747391)

Planned:
- Pec pod Snezkou (50.688684,15.729137)

 

[jonKranked]

You are bragging about how long and how many posts you have on RM? Those riders and two World Champs already have special status as successful professional riders. No matter how new to this pit of a forum they are, they should get your respect, if you care for mtb racing as you claim to. Just an FYI, no one needs to earn respect by typing replies on a forum. That is the nerdiest thing I've ever heard.

If you think they are so special, why don't you see if they'll hire you as a fluffer?

 

[Mudstud]

@ Zdenek

Wow, that really is an amazing number of tracks for a country with - how many, 10.5 million inhabitants? No wonder there is such a big number of strong riders spawning in Czechia - I guess that doing 4cross on a grass-roots level is not that much of a problem, then?

And even if a track is not so super: It's already there, and the work to improve an existing track is for sure easier than to start from scratch, as you already have a patch of land and the officials' and landowner's OK to use that patch for cycling purposes.

 

[DH Dad]

Lot's of different turns this thread has taken, going back to the points specific to the declines in the US one post stuck out to me:

...
I'm saying I would prefer to be in the US over Europe. Everything about the US is more like Australia, ... TV is waaaaaaay better...

This is probably why we don't have enough young racers competing in the first place and our competition at 4X is disappearing. I'd bet EC or Lopes could still show up at the US Nationals and win it. Don't mean to take anything away from either but they don't race 4X at the World level anymore. Video games and TV contribute to the extraordinarily high child obesity rate in the US and there's just not enough kids riding bikes.

For the past 4 weekends at the local BMX track in Wakefield my son, 9, raced only 1 other boy and he was an 8 Rookie. So for the entire Metro-Boston NBL there was not another 9 year old to race. He repeatedly won but I don't think the experience will make him a better racer since he had no incentive to ride faster or work on passing... Somehow he's still interested in racing but it's quite a dismal scene, I had got him into BMX racing since there's not a ton of MTB racing for kids and he loves to race bikes. Maybe I need to look into MX racing next since I fear it's going to be hard to hold his interest in bike racing unless things change. As far as just riding bikes only a few of his friends actually even do that! Most prefer plopping in front of the TV and turning on the WII, I find myself having arguments with his friends because I won't let them sit in front of the TV when they come over and it's not raining out.

I'm hopeful for some sort of rejuvenated interest in bike racing but I continually see declines in numbers of participants. I too was at Mt Snow through the 90's and have continued to go ever since but this past year was a Joke, especially at the 4X course. Start to end for the race was maybe 11 minutes and probably even fewer racers. I must have blinked because I don't even remember seeing a race.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

^^^^^^^^^^^^
And only ONE pro showed up to Mount Snow for 4x. And there was a CASH purse.






they refunded his entry fee, instead of letting him collect.

 

[dondon]

If any professional photographer is reading this and would like to comment on this theory or indeed explain what actually happens that would be great.
O after a quick conversation with an experancied photographer light could also be factor becuase 4X is always raced in the dark.

Yes, this is part of the problem. The schedule is indeed screwed up. Im on the hill from about 8:15 till end DH practice at 16:15. Then i make my way down from wherever i am. At this point I've had no food or drink except the few snacks i have taken from day before maybe, since media room is not open when i head up. I will usually make it to 4X practice when it is just starting. I may shoot some then go download or i may get some food and water first. I shoot pretty much every 4X practice session and of course the race. Yes its tough after a long day but it's just part of the job. My day usually ends between 11pm-1am with wake up at 6am.
The problem is on the first day or two of practice everyone is trying out lines and finding fastest qualifying line on the track. This typically only gets you shots of single riders...Good for the odd ad but not what editors want to see for editorial for the most part. Light starts out decent (if its not raining) but then deteriorates rapidly with massive contrast of shadows and light. Same goes for finals. In fact i would rather shoot a final under lights than under the half light it is usually held in, having to shoot flash limits your variety.
Magazines usually want shots of the winners, so usually you are limited to shots from the final or semis. And then if you want to get at least 4 riders in one shot for the 4X race shot you are limited to the top of the course which is often some rollers or jumps leading into a big turn, just what every other course looks like all year. Maybe thats what limits the amount of coverage in magazines, the lack of variety in "look" year round or why a lot of photographers will sit where "take outs" are likely to happen.
I try move around and shoot each race a little different to do the venues and riders justice, but if there was closer racing throughout the course it would definitely help. And yes a corner like jared mentioned at Houffalize where the fastest rider can get passed by a slower rider sounds perfect to me. Racers can just adjust strategies accordingly in such situations.

Would more DH racers race 4X if the schedule was different? If 4X finals were held on friday two days before a sunday DH final and there was incentive with "gravity overall" points and $$$, Im sure there would be.

So in short, yes the schedule and time they hold the races are screwed up. When 4X finals are on saturdays they are held often 4 or 5 hours after DH practice is over and half the crowds have gone home. But its not just 4X'rs who are being screwed by the schedule. Downhillers travel around the world for 1 day of practice on thursday before having to qualify on friday. Half of them don't even get to ride Saturday and Sunday, not a great way to encourage participation and boost entry numbers.

And regarding women and difficulty, it seems a non issue now with the well thought out "pro sections" that some of them are jumping and the others don't look silly riding the alternate line. Jared, i saw a lot more men lying in the bushes confused at Champery before they cut some roots out and widened the bench cuts. Mio was nose manual pivoting the turns that top 5 men were struggling with and the only reason you are seeing lower women numbers in DH is because they only let 20 race the final now where 64 can race in 4X with no UCI points.

 

[Cru_Jones]

@ Mudstud: There are 4X tracks in the swiss series. There are/were Laufenburg, Michelbach, Schaffhausen, Opfikon, Plaffeien. And to be honest, none of them worked if you ask me. And there is what I want to say, it is a pitty to see a lot of work and money going into such a track (4X track is a bit of a big word for some of them, but at least those are built for four riders on mountainbikes racing each other, so how should we call it?) when with the same amount of money and work a great DS could have been built. Take for example Schaffhausen, it was a great race when it was DS and I think most people liked it better when it was DS. Then there was the pressure from the riders to go towards 4X and a lot of effort was put into it, but I think riding and racing was never as much fun as when it was DS (and if there were put in the same effort to make the DS better it would have been excellent). It was just because the circumstances were not right, mainly the terrain which allowed for a great DS but not for a good 4X because there was no room for a long first straight and it was too narrow for big berms.
That's where I think organisers (and riders with their wishes as well) should learn their lesson from, if they have the terrain, money and knowledge to build a good 4X track then go for it but if this is not given than in most cases a DS would be the better choice than a 4X.
I will very much appreciate if we will have a good 4X in Winterthur (surely there are the right people to do so) and if someone can build a good 4X somewhere else in Switzerland I will be the first to race there. What I don't like too see is if people talk organisers who don't have the possibilities (regarding budget and terrain) to build a good 4X track where an excellent DS could be into building a 4X just because they think DS is caveman-ish.
I am quite sure we could see a future with 4X for the big races for the brave specialists and popular DS races for Joe Bloggs who does not have the balls for full contact racing and big doubles.

 

[JaredGraves]

And yes a corner like jared mentioned at Houffalize where the fastest rider can get passed by a slower rider sounds perfect to me. Racers can just adjust strategies accordingly in such situations.

So in short, yes the schedule and time they hold the races are screwed up. When 4X finals are on saturdays they are held often 4 or 5 hours after DH practice is over and half the crowds have gone home. But its not just 4X'rs who are being screwed by the schedule. Downhillers travel around the world for 1 day of practice on thursday before having to qualify on friday. Half of them don't even get to ride Saturday and Sunday, not a great way to encourage participation and boost entry numbers.

And regarding women and difficulty, it seems a non issue now with the well thought out "pro sections" that some of them are jumping and the others don't look silly riding the alternate line. Jared, i saw a lot more men lying in the bushes confused at Champery before they cut some roots out and widened the bench cuts. Mio was nose manual pivoting the turns that top 5 men were struggling with and the only reason you are seeing lower women numbers in DH is because they only let 20 race the final now where 64 can race in 4X with no UCI points.

Sven/dondon,

I think that needs to be mentioned as well, the scheduling. It was extremely dissapointing to me this year when I arrived in South Africa to learn of the new Scheduling to be used throughout the year, mostly moving qualifying for DH a day forward, to the same day as 4X racing. It was a major struggle this year for me, and with my main focus being 4X, my DH suffered big time. I felt super tired at every race due to having to do more DH practice earlier on to be ready for qualifying, then back up and race 4x in the afteroon. If everything for DH was still on Sunday it makes it much easier to do both events. I was always quite tired by 4X finals time, and that is doing nothing to encourage serious 4X participation from the DH crowd. Especially on the big gnarly tracks like St Anne and Fort william, your getting a bit tired after 3 runs on the first day, then youve got to back up for 4X practice and qualifying that night, and maybe 1 run before DH qualifying the next day, before 4X racing that night. so thats when I knocked it on the head for day 1 practice, where non 4X guys could easily still do 5-6 or more in a day, and be fresh and ready for the next day. So your on the back foot even more with a lack of practice time.

Also it was pretty much a non option for me this season to do DH timed practice of even top 80 practice any day, as 4X was not long after, and I needed some time to get some food, get off my feet for a while and get some energy back, if i wanted to be 100% for 4X. The scheduling makes it impossible to be totally ready for either event, and both events suffer.

Houfallize, how is a turn where the fastest rider gets passed by a slower rider good? Passes should be made by a rider who is going faster than the rider in front, and riding more skillfully, not taking it easy and waiting for contact to unfold. Maybe you want to see more of that, but is not what racers want. And racer participation is a big thing were trying to help out here. 1st turns like Houfallize look like a circus show at times. Maybe some of the slower guys want corners like that, but its not fair racing and its a pretty hollow way to win a race if you just ride past the carnage. Its not a good idea for turn 1, but maybe further down.

Champery, your point just strengthened what I said even more. Yes I also saw alot of guys in the bushes scratching their heads too, but not balling their eyes out like some girls. My point was made in reference to Todd saying that a female pro said that 4X has turned women away because it too scary and hard, which is an absolute load, look at what the top DH girls (like your reference to Mio in Champery) can do on a bike, and the girl BMX riders now (40ft double right at the bottom of the ramp at Chula Vista SX world cup last month). If they think ANY 4X track is too hard to ride, they certainly shouldn't be calling themselves a pro.

 

[Salty4X]

If you think they are so special, why don't you see if they'll hire you as a fluffer?

Well, that quote had nothing to do with you, so if you feel the need to stand up for your girlfriend, maybe you should see if you can get paid for the free fluffing you are already performing. Tool.

 

[JaredGraves]

On the subject of rider number at races. There are far fewer well payed 4X riders around than DH guys, something everybody knows, so how can you expect mass numbers of 4X racers at world cups when most of them still have a 9-5?

If were talking numbers of entries at world cup level, then If there were more well payed 4X riders we would see many more 4X racers at all world cups?

Its a double edged sword currently in that situation. So as 4X continues to grow and get better, as it did this year, hopefully the entire industry will get behind it more and we will have more riders who can afford to take more time off work, or quit their job entirely, to follow the races.

But any lack of numbers at certain world cup races is not because of people not being interested in competing.

Its the exact reason there were less than half of todays amount of DH riders at any DH world cup back 6-8 years ago. There was always the top guys, the regulars who were on good salaries, but there was not much money going around for 3/4 or more of the field to take time off work and get to them.

Luckily that has changed for DH today and their are a lot more riders making money, so whats to say in 6-8 years 4X wont be the same?

 

[Mudstud]

@ Cru_Jones

Not every track a fourcross race is being held on is a fourcross track - unfortunately. And if dual courses are transformed into less-than-convincing 4cross courses as in Schaffhausen, no good racing is to be expected.

By the way, Michelbach is in France, Laufenburg in Germany, whereas I am talking about tracks to be built in Switzerland. To call that two-straight flat affair in Opfikon a 4cross track is a bit much as well, and Plaffeien? Well, very BMXish to say the least.
Your definition of the term "4cross track" seems to be a wee bit different from mine. According to my definition there has been one 4cross track built for permanent use in Switzerland so far, in Zermatt. Not exactly a place for spontaneous sessions, is it?

Apart from that, you seem to have missed me saying that I would welcome three 4cross tracks and approxiamtely 30 dual tracks to be built, that's how I would judge the demand in Switzerland.

But enough of these Swiss specific discussions, I guess this is not really all that interesting for Ridemonkey regulars.

 

[Chris Roberts]

@ Cru_Jones

But enough of these Swiss specific discussions, I guess this is not really all that interesting for Ridemonkey regulars.

Guys please feel free to use the www.fourcross-alliance.com group or forum to talk about Swiss tracks.

We would like to get a European 4X series going in the near future (2011 as nearly all the world cups are in Europe in 2010) and it would be good to choose from the best tracks in each European country.

 

[Gobig]

Guys please feel free to use the www.fourcross-alliance.com group or forum to talk about Swiss tracks.

We would like to get a European 4X series going in the near future (2011 as nearly all the world cups are in Europe in 2010) and it would be good to choose from the best tracks in each European country.

Talking of Euro.. Why is the 4x Europeans always in a strange place??
About time you got it in the UK , get a decent sponsor and make a big deal about it..

 

[JaredGraves]

Just been talking with Sven/DonDon about potential scheduling changes that could be made (would need to be approved by UCI) that would help photographers spend more time on the hill and therefore more media coverage for the events?

Does 4X at world cups need to be held over 3 days? could we have a more condensed 2 day schedule? he suggested maybe thursday/friday, personally I think that would negatively affect people coming to watch racing as they have to work fridays ect etc, in Fort william 2 years ago we raced on Friday and it was terrible. But im keen to hear what others think.

I think it would need to be a friday/Saturday approach, which is still pretty full on but I think times of practice could be changed a little. Does anbody really think that DH practice needs to go for up to 7 hours a day. I don't think I started DH practice once this year within the first 2 hours of practice starting, I know neither of my teammates (Sam Blenkinsop and Aaron Gwin) did either. I dont think too many riders would mind if practice time was cut back a little. Nothing too drastic, but surely the 9am-415 pm practice is far more than enough. Considering 4X only gets 1.5 hours.

7 hours of DH is not necessary. and maybe some more DH guys might give 4X a go with their newfound spare time? Also they wouldnt be as tired from hour after hour of DH practice.

Back in the day at Norbas we only got 2 hours a day practice, and it was in most cases enough time.

So maybe DH could start a little later and maybe have morning 4X practice, or maybe DH could finish a little earlier, and 4x could start a little earlier, therefore the photo guys wouldn't be over snapping shots for the day and wanting to get a meal, and the media center wouldn't be closed.


Dragging out 4X over 3 days is another thing the riders hate. Especially the 4X only guys (which is pretty much everyone now) as they sit around all day, bored out of their brains, then get a 90 minute practice session, the days are very long and drawn out for the riders that way, and doing it 3 days in a row is very draining.

Are the masses of potentially unneccesary DH pratice is hurting 4X. Theres only so many hours in the day, and the current schedule is wasting many of those hours, especially the morning hours, with DH practice that very few people are doing.

I guess what im saying is, surely the UCI could plan a better Schedule, that would be more time efficient for everyone, and not leave 4X (and the photographers shooting 4X) out in the dark.....literally! It could make the media peoples jobs more time friendly and less busy, which could only help them to do a more thorough job all around, and help all forms of coverage for the sport.

Just keen to hear what others think.

 

[TheTruth]

I for one feel that 4x should be held on sunday afternoon. There is only one dh run. If you are tired after that 1 DH run, you probably aren't racing Pro. I could easily start the day off with a dh run, and finish with 4X. PRactice for everything could be on saturday. 4 hours for DH, and 4 hours for 4X practice.

 

[buckoW]

Your definition of the term "4cross track" seems to be a wee bit different from mine. According to my definition there has been one 4cross track built for permanent use in Switzerland so far, in Zermatt. Not exactly a place for spontaneous sessions, is it?

The 4X track in Les Crosets which was used for the Swiss Champs was never taken down. It is over grown now but one line still works. On a DH bike the overgrown grass corners are pretty fun even. You can drive to the end of the track so access is not a problem but it seems like all the good Swiss 4X racers are Swiss German and live too far away to take advantage of the track.

There will be a new 4X track built in Champery next summer for Worlds. I hope they can find a better spot this time.

 

[Mudstud]

Guys please feel free to use the www.fourcross-alliance.com group or forum to talk about Swiss tracks.

We would like to get a European 4X series going in the near future (2011 as nearly all the world cups are in Europe in 2010) and it would be good to choose from the best tracks in each European country.

A European 4cross series? Mint!
That's exactly the next step, filling the void between the national and the Worldcup level. And of course more international races mean more chances to score UCI points, more opportunities to go head to head to other riders and by doing so improving the respective rider's skills.

@ GoBig

So far, the European championships have often been at strange places, like the one in Greece. This year, it made sense as the EC were held within a weeks time of Maribor's Worldcup, also in Slovenia. But then came the weather...

The organizers of the iXS European Downhill Cup (German Racement GmbH and Swiss iXS Sports Division) have inked a deal with the UEC: The European Championships (both DH and 4Cross) will be up to them to organize from 2011 to 2013, and they have the clear goal to improve the status and the prestige of these continental championships - so the best riders are competing.

By the way, sorry for offtopic: The iXS European Downhill Cup is coming to England for the 1st time in 2010, with the series starting in Innerleithen.

@ buckoW

Right, the Crosets-course always delivered good racing. It was even a bit DHish, definitely no "first-corner leader takes it all" course.

But I remember it was pretty exposed to the notoriously fast-changing weather as well. One year the championship race got cancelled as the course disappeared in the clouds, and another year it was just pouring down all the time, but the racing went on nevertheless.

 

[slyfink]

I'm going to throw this out there, but I think that the reason I like 4x action so much is that it reminds me of my regular x-c rides with my buddies where we're often jockying for position and throwing the elbows and trying passing moves on the downhills... it's all in good fun, and every once in a while I'll pull off a fun pass. If the races could somehow channel that bit of fun into it's format, then I think it'll relate to more people.

Anyways, that's the reason I like 4x... I'm looking forward to next year already!

 

[Cru_Jones]

@ Cru_Jones
Apart from that, you seem to have missed me saying that I would welcome three 4cross tracks and approxiamtely 30 dual tracks to be built, that's how I would judge the demand in Switzerland.

No I did not miss it, and I totally agree. So maybe we just talk past each other.

 

[Salty4X]

I'm going to throw this out there, but I think that the reason I like 4x action so much is that it reminds me of my regular x-c rides with my buddies where we're often jockying for position and throwing the elbows and trying passing moves on the downhills... it's all in good fun, and every once in a while I'll pull off a fun pass. If the races could somehow channel that bit of fun into it's format, then I think it'll relate to more people.

Anyways, that's the reason I like 4x... I'm looking forward to next year already!

Add a few corner officials that have a bit of common sense towards what classifies as "rubbing is racing" and what goes beyond that, and I think you got it. You'd still have the crashes and take outs (fans excitement), but the rider responsible for illegal actions would get dropped. Now I know that there has been some disqualifications over the past few years, but I feel most were questionable and there should be tons more calls on deliberate take outs. That is just one, but a huge part, of what needs to change in the sport n my eyes. Riders stay healthier and there are fewer questionable calls.

 

[JaredGraves]

Questionable official calls were another thing mentioned at the 4X alliance metting, with the view to have more clear cut rules and better inform offiicals about these rules, and have more consistant calls on whats fair and what isnt.

The UCI realizes this also and it got better at the end of the season, and i'm sure its another thing that will get better for next year and beyond.

Theres no doubt that theres still some weird rules that are going around also that need to be looked at, almost all DSQ calls this year were made for putting wheels out of your lane (the white lines out of the start) and cutting flags. Its fair to make DSQ decisions on these if they affect the outcome of the race, or negatively impact another rider, but some leniency needs to be made as well for cases that are minor and don't affect the outcome (like anneke Beerton in the semi final at world champs)

 

[Ithnu]

. Its fair to make DSQ decisions on these if they affect the outcome of the race, or negatively impact another rider, but some leniency needs to be made as well for cases that are minor and don't affect the outcome

I agree, at Snowmass one guy got DQ'd that should have been allowed to advance. He went over a flag to avoid running over (he would have literally gone over one guy's legs) the two guys who crashed. He ended up 1st but would have got the same result anyway, I was behind him and the other two were really tangled up, they never would have caught either of us.

 

[rockofullr]

First off, thanks to all the big names who take the time to post here and make us little guys feel in the loop.

I think it's also important to consider the perspective of an amateur (read: I race for fun) racer.

I live in the east bay, Cali, and I don't have the money to travel to many races. When I do travel to a race it is a DH race.

I am a fan of both 4x and DS and last winter I bought a Yeti DJ to race at my local track (Sand Hill had 4x and DS tracks). Come racing season and I discover that Sand Hill bike park is closed permanently. I don't even know where the next closest location that hosts gated racing is, so now I just ride my Yeti on dirt jumps. I do know that there are 2 BMX race tracks within 45 min of me.

From my perspective the future of 4x (and gated gravity racing in general) here in nor-cal is pretty grim. Which isn't good considering that nor-cal is the birth place of the MTB.

I know it's been said before but in my opinion the most important thing isn't the WC it's the local races and gated racing is failing in this department. We need more people like the guys at VeloPro Cyclery (props to Ed, Mitch and crew) in Santa Barbra who took it upon them selves to build a DS course at Ellings Park and hold races on it.

 

[JaredGraves]

I think Ive said Pretty much everything I wanted to say in the posts in this thread, hopefully it's done some good, and hopefully this will be my last post.

So I just wanted, once more, to sum up a few things, before I can hopefully, leave this be.


- I completely agree that grassroots racing is hugely important, it would be extremely ignorant to think otherwise. Rockofullr said that in norcal the gated racing scene is looking pretty bad, while this sucks, there are also many areas where grassroots level 4X is doing really well, for example, theres currently new tracks popping up all over Australia right now. Tracks dont build themselves, so if your really passionate about having tracks to ride, maybe it's time to step up yourself.

- On the topic of course accessability, What I love about 4X is that you take skills from DH (bike handling skills, cornering, agility, agression ect) and BMX (precision, Strength, head to head racing, smarts ect) and thats what makes a perfect base to race 4X, so you dont always need a 4X track nearby to ride everyday if you have those things. of course having a nearby 4X track will always help to get people pumped on 4X, but if your serious about racing, its not vital.

I know guys who are into DH that have no nearby tracks to ride, so they make do with what they have to train on, moto, xc, dirtjumps, and the only time they get to ride DH is when they travel to races, and they love it!

- 4X bikes are esentially the exact same thing as Slalom bikes and are very similar to Dirt Jump bikes, atleast 95% of all serious DH riders also own some form of hardtail/short travel bike already, so saying sales would increase and help the industry, if DS was to be brought back in, is BS.

- Slalom racing has failed at world cup level already, Eric Carter/BCvan has been at the very top, through the sports prime, and mentioned numerous times in this thread that Slalom was a poor side show that was seen by many as being very monotonous and boring to watch, especially to the non enthusiast. 4X has far more appeal to attract viewers and potential competitors, as every race can be different, you never know how a race is going to play out.

I get comments from non bike riding friends that they think the DH is super boring to watch, you see rider after rider hit the exact same section, in almost the exact same way. To me (obvioulsy) DH is rad, Im very passionate about DH, and anything MTB, but they all say that 4X is more entertaining to watch, as anything can happen at anytime. if DH is your passion, then of course you will enjoy watching it, but to the general viewer (on TV) dont kid yourself, its pretty boring. NASCAR keeps getting brought up, but it is a really good example of what im trying to say. To the passionate follwer its the bees knees, and is no doubt, rad fun to drive. but to most outsiders watching it on TV, it sucks!

- Top DH riders will not race DS at world cups, they all know the value of putting 100% into their pet event (DH) and would continue to do that. Maybe some would do slalom for a while, then realize it is hurting their DH performance and they would return to just doing DH, Long Term participation simply wouldn't happen. It would also drive away most of the new blood that 4X is currently getting from ex BMXers (highly skilled riders that deserve your respect) and we would then be left in a far worse situation.

- Any top DH rider only wants Slalom to be brought back in because they never did any good at 4X when they raced it, the idea of something more familiar seems appealing to them, as they feel they have a better chance of doing well at it. So what do you do then? Give them their way and forget about the new breed of 4X rider that is currently emerging? It's called evolution people....if sports didn't evolve we would still be competing in chariot racing and such.

- Many top 4X racers have put their thoughtS into this thread, they have all found out about it (Theres links to this thread on loads of other websites/rider websites now) the 100% lack of any top DH racer posting here saying they would compete in world cup DS speaks volumes on how passoinate they are about DS....they don't really care at all. Like Boom Boom said earlier, the DS vs 4X meeting at the maribor world cup in 2007. Votes for 4X....approx 90, votes for DS....2 For the specific DH guys, 4X or DS, they really aren't concerened.


- The DS in favour of 4X vibe is coming from just the US. 4X is gaining acceptance and growth from every other country. I suppose part of the reason I've been a part of this thread so regularly lately is that I ride for a US company, and I want to see 4X (which as ive stated, I firmly beleive has a very bright future) reach its potential.

- There was no 4X negativity coming from the US when they were the dominant force. It has really only began with the retirement of Lopes, the last great US 4X racer of that time. Its easy to blame other factors when things arent so rosy.

- I have to say also (big thanks to Spomer @ Vital for taking time/interest to let me say my bit) that a lot of the negativity has come from the media, the human race has a natural instinct to follow the leader, a couple key US media people decided they didnt like 4X, so they make a song and dance about it, and it influences peoples decisions. 4X is the the way gated racing is going, so wouldn't it be in your best interest to put your personal feelings aside and support it? if you guys are all so passionate about MTB why are you constantly trying to bring a part of it down? Its something different...yes, something your not used to, but like I said, its evolution.

- 4X is still in it's infancy, there are certainly growing pains involved, but the general feeling from riders and anyone who closely follwed 4X this past season, is that it is on the up, partcipation is up, Courses are getting more figured out and racing is getting better, There is still a ways to go, no doubt, but it undeniably has potential to get much bigger.

- Passing, tracks definately need more aspects that reward rider skill, Ive mentioned many times what I would like to see in a track, but its not as simple as building whatever you like at World Cup level, there are many restrictions on where and track can be built, so dont go looking for the track builders blood, But in some cases, I think a bit more thought to what will make more exciting racing still needs to be adressed.

- I think at times also people expect too much from 4X, Kyle Ebbett just today brought up a good point at Vital...that if you are the fastest out of the start, and you can handle the pressure of holding off 3 guys trying to pass you, shouldnt you deserve to win? Competing in a sport where you can lose a race when you are the fastest rider in your race, and make no mistakes, doesnt make for a sport that people will be lining up to compete in. There is more than enough luck involved in 4X how it is, tracks need to be developed, where rider skill and preparation is rewarded more than luck, just like DH !

- 4X, in Europe especially, is receiving far more outside media and TV coverage than DH is, proving that it has huge potential for growth through outside interest. This is the type of media attention a sport needs to truly grow, when a sport feeds mostly off itself, it will always remain small.

- gates, whatever the gate, the guys that put in the training will have an edge, whenever I hear that people think BMX guys have the advantage coz of the gate, and something needs to change I get pretty angry.

Lets break this down a bit

A gate serves one purpose... it's a consistant thing for all the riders racing, for the race to start at the exact same time for everyone. I 100% believe the current UCI/random gate system is by far the fairest way to start a race...why? Because its easily accesable to everyone, at any local BMX track, or even for purchase for yourself if you are serious. No other form of start system imaginable is as easy to practice.

People often complain that BMX riders have an advantage on this start system, which is true, but only because they put in hours of training and practice for this start. If you truly want to be good at 4X you should maybe think about making an effort to get to the local track on gate nights and making your start better.

I ALWAYS used to blame poor 4X results on my complete lack of ability to do a gate start, I used to get absolutely hosed! But as my interest in 4X grew, I took some action, I practiced as often as I could, I worked as hard as I could to get a good gate, to be competitive, to the point now where I am 100% confident that nobody is going to be ahead of me after the snap. Its like any other skill on a bike, it takes time, but anyone can learn.

The people that complain that the current gate system needs changing need to really think if they are doing themselves any favours with their race preparation. I still hear world cup 4X guys saying they can't do a gate, and think the system needs to change, but they are the guys that never do any gate practice, they will spend all day practicing all the fun parts of 4X, but because gate practice isn't fun, they forget about it. Gate practice isnt the most enjoyable part of training, but if you are serious about doing well its vital. Its no different to expecting to do well at the top level of DH racing with never doing intervals/fitness work. Maybe a very select few randomly gifted freaks can, but it's far from realistic. As the saying goes, You only get out what you put in. It blows my mind that guys are racing world cups and complain when they are getting waxed out of the start, but dont want to do anything to help themselves.

In summary, this 4X negativity is coming only from the US, and in large part i see that as coming from the media and MTB figures across the country. Obviously 4X isn't their personal cup of tea, but if they were truly professional about their jobs, wouldn't they do all they can to help grow all aspects of MTB ,instead of letting their persoanal feelings get in the way, and bring it down.

 

[rosenamedpoop]

Just listened to the Vital interview about this thread.

Jared, every time I hear or see interviews like this I'm impressed. You're a real stand up guy. I admire you're integrity, honesty, and that you're so damn humble!






.

 

[Boom Boom]

I think Ive said Pretty much everything I wanted to say in the posts in this thread, hopefully it's done some good, and hopefully this will be my last post.

So I just wanted, once more, to sum up a few things, before I can hopefully, leave this be.


- I completely agree that grassroots racing is hugely important, it would be extremely ignorant to think otherwise. Rockofullr said that in norcal the gated racing scene is looking pretty bad, while this sucks, there are also many areas where grassroots level 4X is doing really well, for example, theres currently new tracks popping up all over Australia right now. Tracks dont build themselves, so if your really passionate about having tracks to ride, maybe it's time to step up yourself.

- On the topic of course accessability, What I love about 4X is that you take skills from DH (bike handling skills, cornering, agility, agression ect) and BMX (precision, Strength, head to head racing, smarts ect) and thats what makes a perfect base to race 4X, so you dont always need a 4X track nearby to ride everyday if you have those things. of course having a nearby 4X track will always help to get people pumped on 4X, but if your serious about racing, its not vital.

I know guys who are into DH that have no nearby tracks to ride, so they make do with what they have to train on, moto, xc, dirtjumps, and the only time they get to ride DH is when they travel to races, and they love it!

- 4X bikes are esentially the exact same thing as Slalom bikes and are very similar to Dirt Jump bikes, atleast 95% of all serious DH riders also own some form of hardtail/short travel bike already, so saying sales would increase and help the industry, if DS was to be brought back in, is BS.

- Slalom racing has failed at world cup level already, Eric Carter/BCvan has been at the very top, through the sports prime, and mentioned numerous times in this thread that Slalom was a poor side show that was seen by many as being very monotonous and boring to watch, especially to the non enthusiast. 4X has far more appeal to attract viewers and potential competitors, as every race can be different, you never know how a race is going to play out.

I get comments from non bike riding friends that they think the DH is super boring to watch, you see rider after rider hit the exact same section, in almost the exact same way. To me (obvioulsy) DH is rad, Im very passionate about DH, and anything MTB, but they all say that 4X is more entertaining to watch, as anything can happen at anytime. if DH is your passion, then of course you will enjoy watching it, but to the general viewer (on TV) dont kid yourself, its pretty boring. NASCAR keeps getting brought up, but it is a really good example of what im trying to say. To the passionate follwer its the bees knees, and is no doubt, rad fun to drive. but to most outsiders watching it on TV, it sucks!

- Top DH riders will not race DS at world cups, they all know the value of putting 100% into their pet event (DH) and would continue to do that. Maybe some would do slalom for a while, then realize it is hurting their DH performance and they would return to just doing DH, Long Term participation simply wouldn't happen. It would also drive away most of the new blood that 4X is currently getting from ex BMXers (highly skilled riders that deserve your respect) and we would then be left in a far worse situation.

- Any top DH rider only wants Slalom to be brought back in because they never did any good at 4X when they raced it, the idea of something more familiar seems appealing to them, as they feel they have a better chance of doing well at it. So what do you do then? Give them their way and forget about the new breed of 4X rider that is currently emerging? It's called evolution people....if sports didn't evolve we would still be competing in chariot racing and such.

- Many top 4X racers have put their thoughtS into this thread, they have all found out about it (Theres links to this thread on loads of other websites/rider websites now) the 100% lack of any top DH racer posting here saying they would compete in world cup DS speaks volumes on how passoinate they are about DS....they don't really care at all. Like Boom Boom said earlier, the DS vs 4X meeting at the maribor world cup in 2007. Votes for 4X....approx 90, votes for DS....2 For the specific DH guys, 4X or DS, they really aren't concerened.


- The DS in favour of 4X vibe is coming from just the US. 4X is gaining acceptance and growth from every other country. I suppose part of the reason I've been a part of this thread so regularly lately is that I ride for a US company, and I want to see 4X (which as ive stated, I firmly beleive has a very bright future) reach its potential.

- There was no 4X negativity coming from the US when they were the dominant force. It has really only began with the retirement of Lopes, the last great US 4X racer of that time. Its easy to blame other factors when things arent so rosy.

- I have to say also (big thanks to Spomer @ Vital for taking time/interest to let me say my bit) that a lot of the negativity has come from the media, the human race has a natural instinct to follow the leader, a couple key US media people decided they didnt like 4X, so they make a song and dance about it, and it influences peoples decisions. 4X is the the way gated racing is going, so wouldn't it be in your best interest to put your personal feelings aside and support it? if you guys are all so passionate about MTB why are you constantly trying to bring a part of it down? Its something different...yes, something your not used to, but like I said, its evolution.

- 4X is still in it's infancy, there are certainly growing pains involved, but the general feeling from riders and anyone who closely follwed 4X this past season, is that it is on the up, partcipation is up, Courses are getting more figured out and racing is getting better, There is still a ways to go, no doubt, but it undeniably has potential to get much bigger.

- Passing, tracks definately need more aspects that reward rider skill, Ive mentioned many times what I would like to see in a track, but its not as simple as building whatever you like at World Cup level, there are many restrictions on where and track can be built, so dont go looking for the track builders blood, But in some cases, I think a bit more thought to what will make more exciting racing still needs to be adressed.

- I think at times also people expect too much from 4X, Kyle Ebbett just today brought up a good point at Vital...that if you are the fastest out of the start, and you can handle the pressure of holding off 3 guys trying to pass you, shouldnt you deserve to win? Competing in a sport where you can lose a race when you are the fastest rider in your race, and make no mistakes, doesnt make for a sport that people will be lining up to compete in. There is more than enough luck involved in 4X how it is, tracks need to be developed, where rider skill and preparation is rewarded more than luck, just like DH !

- 4X, in Europe especially, is receiving far more outside media and TV coverage than DH is, proving that it has huge potential for growth through outside interest. This is the type of media attention a sport needs to truly grow, when a sport feeds mostly off itself, it will always remain small.

- gates, whatever the gate, the guys that put in the training will have an edge, whenever I hear that people think BMX guys have the advantage coz of the gate, and something needs to change I get pretty angry.

Lets break this down a bit

A gate serves one purpose... it's a consistant thing for all the riders racing, for the race to start at the exact same time for everyone. I 100% believe the current UCI/random gate system is by far the fairest way to start a race...why? Because its easily accesable to everyone, at any local BMX track, or even for purchase for yourself if you are serious. No other form of start system imaginable is as easy to practice.

People often complain that BMX riders have an advantage on this start system, which is true, but only because they put in hours of training and practice for this start. If you truly want to be good at 4X you should maybe think about making an effort to get to the local track on gate nights and making your start better.

I ALWAYS used to blame poor 4X results on my complete lack of ability to do a gate start, I used to get absolutely hosed! But as my interest in 4X grew, I took some action, I practiced as often as I could, I worked as hard as I could to get a good gate, to be competitive, to the point now where I am 100% confident that nobody is going to be ahead of me after the snap. Its like any other skill on a bike, it takes time, but anyone can learn.

The people that complain that the current gate system needs changing need to really think if they are doing themselves any favours with their race preparation. I still hear world cup 4X guys saying they can't do a gate, and think the system needs to change, but they are the guys that never do any gate practice, they will spend all day practicing all the fun parts of 4X, but because gate practice isn't fun, they forget about it. Gate practice isnt the most enjoyable part of training, but if you are serious about doing well its vital. Its no different to expecting to do well at the top level of DH racing with never doing intervals/fitness work. Maybe a very select few randomly gifted freaks can, but it's far from realistic. As the saying goes, You only get out what you put in. It blows my mind that guys are racing world cups and complain when they are getting waxed out of the start, but dont want to do anything to help themselves.

In summary, this 4X negativity is coming only from the US, and in large part i see that as coming from the media and MTB figures across the country. Obviously 4X isn't their personal cup of tea, but if they were truly professional about their jobs, wouldn't they do all they can to help grow all aspects of MTB ,instead of letting their persoanal feelings get in the way, and bring it down.

Jared, this is spot on. I could not possibly agree with your comments any more if I wanted to. You have addressed every subjest that has been brought up during the 21 pages of this thread perfectly. I agree that this should be the closing statement to this subject as I do not see a way anyone can argue with anything you have said.

Sorry to all the forum regulars for quoting Jared's entire post, but I wanted to be clear what I was refering to. A classic piece of writing that should put this subject to bed.

SB.

 

[Joost]

Jared,

Think told everything in good words, how a lot of 4X riders think about it.
Thanks mate for put the right words in the right spot.

And now it's time to get back to training...