ok so ive only skimmed the pages previous alot of good points, i think 4X could be huge but sadly its not, 4X you can rock up on a reatively inexpensive bike and race and have fun, the problem at elite level is the tracks, im not gonna try not to slate any track builders but i have to say the worlds track what the fk was that?? was that just an over sized bmx track?? it was the lamest track ive ever seen, EC will remember kaprun 2001 ( i think) that was rad, someone needs to come in and say right tracks are gonna be for mtb's and not bmx tracks on a gradient because thats all they are right now, the world cup at champerey was amazing until the last bit and the sprint across the car park, until the tracks are sorted then 4X will remain weak, the UK scene is the worst its ever been with next years calendar looking the same as it did in 2007, wheres the progression???
The future of 4X?
- Thread starter kOlsen
- Start date
I think the lack of entrants and competition speaks volumes on that idea.
Your bad english is better then my Czech!
GOBIG
brought up a KEY point, it sure does seem like 4X dies off in the winter. You always kinda see what Peaty, Greg, Sam, Kovarik, etc...are up to in the winter from little local races to them mowing the lawns, but we do not get to hear much about 4X in the winter and what the 4X celebs are doing. As Chris Rock says "Its not us, its the meeeeeedia".
brought up a KEY point, it sure does seem like 4X dies off in the winter. You always kinda see what Peaty, Greg, Sam, Kovarik, etc...are up to in the winter from little local races to them mowing the lawns, but we do not get to hear much about 4X in the winter and what the 4X celebs are doing. As Chris Rock says "Its not us, its the meeeeeedia".
Funny that really i wonder what F1 drivers do in the winter,
never see them racing in the winter............
In this day and age, 111 competitors is a very solid turnout for gated racing. Be it SL, GS or 4X. We used a new format and still had excellent numbers.
http://live-timing.com/report.php?r=13696&rp=167701&page=3
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Hey,
I did read most of this topic very fast, so do not know all the ins and outs.
But i get a bit tired about this never ending story about 4X.
Lots of people who do not know anything about MTB think 4X is the best thing to watch. Because it s head to head racing, 1 hour of non stop action, easy to understand, and the best format for TV.
I do agree that 4X has to move away futher from BMX. Tracks need to be rougher, jumps need to be bigger and there need to be good opportunities to overtake.
Take a look at snowboarding, boarderX is the most popular dicipline now, way bigger the dual.
This is because it s more spectaculair, better for TV and people love head to head racing.
There are some media people who do not like 4X..and try to push their opinion that 4X sucks. I think that this is the biggest problem why we do not get the coverage which we deserve and need to create superstars in our sport like Steve in DH.
So stop complaining and use this energy to make it bigger!
Sorry for my poor english...
cheers
Joost
I did read most of this topic very fast, so do not know all the ins and outs.
But i get a bit tired about this never ending story about 4X.
Lots of people who do not know anything about MTB think 4X is the best thing to watch. Because it s head to head racing, 1 hour of non stop action, easy to understand, and the best format for TV.
I do agree that 4X has to move away futher from BMX. Tracks need to be rougher, jumps need to be bigger and there need to be good opportunities to overtake.
Take a look at snowboarding, boarderX is the most popular dicipline now, way bigger the dual.
This is because it s more spectaculair, better for TV and people love head to head racing.
There are some media people who do not like 4X..and try to push their opinion that 4X sucks. I think that this is the biggest problem why we do not get the coverage which we deserve and need to create superstars in our sport like Steve in DH.
So stop complaining and use this energy to make it bigger!
Sorry for my poor english...
cheers
Joost
Why does it have be the one or the other? Like you guys said, on some hills you just can't build a good 4X course. So why not build a dual course there and have everybody race dual? With a mix of different tracks and different formats the racing would get all the more exciting. Similar to downhill where we have tracks from Canberra to Champery, catering to different kinds of riders and giving different racers a chance to win. In the end the best "gated" racer will walk away with the overall win.
Tell me, what are your DH idols doing in the winter? I never heard a word about it before, so maybe you can help me with that... Don't get me wrong, I highly respect all those guys you noticed BUT it seems to me that you are just trying to find any smallest bad thing in 4X to support your "arguments" against 4X. Why you don't have balls to say just "I hate 4X"? It would be simple and time saving solution of your frustration, I guess.
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The format didn't change in that situation just the types of courses.... that would be like saying... Canberra isn't a real DH as far as difficulty and steepness so lets race guys head to head to build excitement.
I know a lot of people were down on the DH worlds course, but watching on FreeCaster i liked the fact that there were different elements that were being brought into the mix, it was a very exciting race IMO.
That said i don't think that every 4x course should be cookie cutter stamped out style and have the same slope angle, i think diversity is good. some steep and some flatter.
I think if the UCI chooses a venue it should take the 4x into consideration and make sure there is a decent location for the discipline, it always felt like the mind set of shove it off to the side and just run it because we have to.
If there isn't a site then they should not hold a race, quality is better then quantity IMO.
It takes a lot for it all to come together, UCI picking good venue's, A organizer that understands what is going to be needed and is willing to do what is necessary, a fair bit of money, equipment operators that are skilled and efficient, good equipment not some borrowed piece from a buddy to save a buck.
All of this is before ground is even broke!
Joost had very good points about the future,not the past of gated racing.
Our sport is the summer version of Ski racing, if you look at the popularity of skier cross and boardercross in the recent years that is what i think the hope is.
Those are now Olympic disciplines!
Another key point! I've often felt like the selection of WC venues has not fully considered the 4X. It's almost been a side event tagged on and sometimes the venue couldn't handle it. Champery 07 was a prime example.
For the first time ever, in 2 weeks, I'm being sent to a potential WC venue to check it's suitability for 4X. I'll get to choose the best spot for the 4X, rather than being given a plot to make do with. This is a big step forward for the UCI and will have a big effect on all other aspects of designing and building the tracks. For me this shows the confidence the UCI now has in the future of 4X.
Media? I've always said that the WC 4X should have an event producer - the person who designs the show, the event choreography etc, but also manages the media. I'm sure this is what happens in Supercross.
The media has a huge influence on how things are "spun". With a small amount of help from them, 4X could be turned around, even without any changes (or any lies)! This happens in politics every day.
As Joost mentioned 4X is popular with people outside the normal MTB community. I think the industry could do with realising this and helping to push it a bit. Surely we all want MTB to be exported to the masses and 4X is probably the best medium.
So what would be the problem with the change in format in your opinion? The points for the overall are awarded the same way anyways, or? You have a clear ranking. Also, riders that are used to rubbing their elbows in the 4X would have no problem racing a dual from a safety point of view, in contrast to racing a downhill with more riders
lighten: But you bring up a good point, throw a Reebok Eliminator race in there! 
). BTW: the suggestion to have a dual style section in a 4X already came up, so my suggestion was just expanding on this idea.Would a complete separation of the 4X from the downhill venues enable better courses? Moving the venues closer to big cities would get more spectators and is possible because the requirements are so different from a downhill venue (no chairlift needed, not as much elevation difference). This would also mature the sport and show that it is more than a side show to downhill. Venues putting up the race would be fully committed to it too.
Phil first up i know you have passion for 4x but come on . You had years to bring up and push for the things you say could benefit 4x to the UCI ? OK you been dealt some crappy hands in time/money/ room to build some good WC tracks... Why put your name to them if you know it's only going to be a half ass job?
I get the impression your taking it into your own hands how the sport should be cause your the track builder. Maybe im wrong and im out the loop, just my take looking in. I do know Tom Ritz who builds the BMX Super X tracks for the UCI gets input from not only the fast and not so fast riders but the girls 2 and i don't see 2 many people complaining that side, it keeps getting better and better.
Have a talk with Nigel Page when you see him next, he's got some great views on 4x from both sides ...
Yep it looks that way Dale.
There is a whole new wave in Fourcross now that really is working together to improve the sport, you can see that from Graves, Saxena, etc on here talking about it & explaining whats is going on,
pop over to the www.fourcross-alliance.com website have a read of the meeting that was held at the last World Cup in Schaldming.
Attending that meeting was all range of people from Team Managers, World Champions, UCI commisaires, riders, Media & guys from the Industry anyone with an intrest in Fourcross to help improve the sport.
Why new faces should come from DH? From my opinion, this is one of the biggest mistakes repeating in these discussions again and again. At the World Cup level, for downhillers makes no sense if it's 4X, dual or whater format you want until the schedule remains like it is now.
Do you really think 4X needs downhillers? Does F1 need more rally drivers? Does rally need more F1 pilots? Probably not either way. There are few guys doing both but there is not a single one winning on the open roads and circuits. We need stronger grass roots program for 4X newcomers not a few downhillers. Sure, they are always welcome but they won't save 4X even if anyone thinks it needs to be saved.
There was about 120 4X riders in Schladming this year which means that almost half of them had to go home after the qualification. Even with thousand names on the start list, the race is still only for top 64!
Dale, Johan Lindström makes the difference. Without this guy, BMX SX World Cup even didn't exist. Bring anyone passioned in 4X as Johan is in BMX to UCI and then I believe Phil would have free hands to show his skills as Tom has at SX.
Oggy Oggy Oggy, do you think this is BMX talk?
I only deal in facts:
2007 - We raced on Six tracks
2010 - We will race on Eight tracks and 6 of those are new ones!
So to say there is no progression in the tracks is just lame.
Not sure where your were this year Oggy but the 2009 NPS4x series had its best year todate & is still Europes Biggest Fourcorss Series.
Rider numbers up, new tracks, Media coverage up 16 pages in Dirt Magazine in fact the only British mountain bike racing in Dirt magazine.
There is a whole new wave of riders racing four cross now, there not from BMX these guys just ride bikes either down there local track or down the trails, they come to race to have fun with the other friends they have made at the races.
The UK in the last couple years has produced at least 7 regular world cup riders on top of the all ready established world cup riders and a whole lot more to come.
There are at least 4 Juniors next year who want to do World cups and there are already 2 Youth riders planning on doing the 2011 World Cups.
Four Cross is on a whole new wave of riders and support.
Chris
Europe's Biggest 4X Series
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chris, facts are that the same 6 venues will be included in the 8 for 2010, chris ive tried speaking to you many many times about the state of tracks, you seem to think im having a go at you, whatever you think im over it now.
numbers up where??
im glad you brought the magazine to my attention, chicksands in dirt was two pages of junior, masters and what ever else, what happened to elite??? nothing, same with mbuk too, no coverage for elite, dirt this issue has a two page spread with the juvenille national winner, who won elite?? does anyone care?? i guess not seen as though he's won it for the last three years
i do hope the 4X alliance works, zdenk pol knows the score
numbers up where??
im glad you brought the magazine to my attention, chicksands in dirt was two pages of junior, masters and what ever else, what happened to elite??? nothing, same with mbuk too, no coverage for elite, dirt this issue has a two page spread with the juvenille national winner, who won elite?? does anyone care?? i guess not seen as though he's won it for the last three years
i do hope the 4X alliance works, zdenk pol knows the score
Oggy, I am sorry that Dirt & Mbuk dont want to show a photo of you, but thats not up me.
For the record the 2007 series went to these places
Sheffield Indoor Sunday 04/03/2007
Chicksands Bedford Sunday 01/04/2007
The Edge Bridgnorth Sunday 20/05/2007
Fort William Sunday 17/06/2007
NASS Sunday 8th July
Hamesterley County Durham Sunday 23/09/2007
Next year we are going to
Uk Bike Park
The Edge
Donnington Park
Redhill Extreme
PORC
South West Extreme
Chicksands
of which you will see only the Edge and Chicksands we went to in 2007.
.Chris Im aware what's going on and what Z got going with the www.fourcross-alliance.com . I like 4x and want to see it progress, i totally look forward to watching the WCs on FreeCaster and seeing the new guys come through. All im saying maybe time for a re think on track builders.
Z your right 4x needs a Johan Linstrom . My eyes its EC even though he's probably not got time to do it even if there was a position.
Chris you do a great job in the UK keep pushing forward
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I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about much before. If you look at the DH venues, most of the tracks have been around for years with a few exceptions. The Ft. Bill and MSA tracks aren't cut 2 weeks before the race. The UCI should pressure the venues for permanent track locations. Then you, the track designer can have time to build a good track and refine it over the years. This is how to build "classic" status on a track and build some history like DH is getting. ...And on and on - correct start equality, first straights, bad turns, etc.
I know this can be difficult, especially in the US since a lot of ski resorts are on public land and permits can be difficult. But, a lot of them are building permanent halfpipes and built up DH runs so not impossible.
We had that type of split formating with Norba during it's last year on life support, I don't think it was a success or failure. Although i like doing both i think for it to be a series classified as World Cup the consistency of having 1 type of format makes more sense... not a big issue really but i think it is more professional,So what would be the problem with the change in format in your opinion? The points for the overall are awarded the same way anyways, or? You have a clear ranking. Also, riders that are used to rubbing their elbows in the 4X would have no problem racing a dual from a safety point of view, in contrast to racing a downhill with more riders
Would a complete separation of the 4X from the downhill venues enable better courses? Moving the venues closer to big cities would get more spectators and is possible because the requirements are so different from a downhill venue (no chairlift needed, not as much elevation difference). This would also mature the sport and show that it is more than a side show to downhill. Venues putting up the race would be fully committed to it too.
What format would be used for World Championships?
I personally think moving forward is the way not going back to what used to work.
As far as stand alone events:
I think if 4x gets stronger it could have events away from DH as well as during a traditional World Cup.... but i don't think it's strong enough yet ?
It really is a chicken before the egg... If someone wanted to put the money up or the time to try to raise the money to have a Series that was stand alone in city centers, I think it would as you say help mature the sport for sure.... But the cost for something like that i can't even imagine. all the permits to be pulled, street closures alone would be crazy? At least in the States it would be.
I really like your thinking here though... when the thought of 4x as a format was first being discussed the ability for it to be compact/ portable gives it the best chance for it to be close to city's.
After it is a strong supported format.
I think there is a race in France that is on a hill that is close to the city that is very close to what your describing, i forget the name but i know it gets a lot of people racing and spectating.
Very good points, looking forward to bringing new riders into the sport.
Gentlemen,
I'd like to address an idea that keeps coming back-
BMX=F1
Why can't 4X= Touring car racing?
Contact and sliding. Fun. Getting loose- Fun.
Don't think of it as so much a crap-shoot for all the guys who are bmx crossovers,
It'd just be a different way to get down the hill than you guys are used to. Gating and precision still matter, but so does the ability to rub plastic and stay up... Slower flow-killing turns that require good leg-speed and peak power to get out of could further differentiate it from BMX SX, and give the super-fit RoboRacers another big advantage besides a gate. I think that plays into Mr. Graves idea of slalom-type elements at the end of the track as well.
We already have a bunch of Ninja's racing. Let's bring in the ballroom brawlers, white noise, white heat and white trash. Get Gnarly, or Go Home.
Hell, that doesn't even need to be 4x, I suppose- but it's just another fun option for big men to race little bikes down hills.
It doesn't have to be dangerous, and It can and should be more fair for the dudes without the gate. Flat Pedal carvers deserve to get rewarded for being Hell Bent in Leathers.
As a pretty slow American Pro 4x/Slalom racer, I'm stoked to race anything and everything. And I damn well know that I am never going to get by anyone in the top 50 in a corner no matter how the track is built. Tactical racing and forced errors are pretty awesome.
Oh yes, Just one time I'd love to see a completely turf'd track with everyone racing on grass spikes... Talk about pull, precision and balls.
I'd like to address an idea that keeps coming back-
BMX=F1
Why can't 4X= Touring car racing?
Contact and sliding. Fun. Getting loose- Fun.
Don't think of it as so much a crap-shoot for all the guys who are bmx crossovers,
It'd just be a different way to get down the hill than you guys are used to. Gating and precision still matter, but so does the ability to rub plastic and stay up... Slower flow-killing turns that require good leg-speed and peak power to get out of could further differentiate it from BMX SX, and give the super-fit RoboRacers another big advantage besides a gate. I think that plays into Mr. Graves idea of slalom-type elements at the end of the track as well.
We already have a bunch of Ninja's racing. Let's bring in the ballroom brawlers, white noise, white heat and white trash. Get Gnarly, or Go Home.
Hell, that doesn't even need to be 4x, I suppose- but it's just another fun option for big men to race little bikes down hills.
It doesn't have to be dangerous, and It can and should be more fair for the dudes without the gate. Flat Pedal carvers deserve to get rewarded for being Hell Bent in Leathers.
As a pretty slow American Pro 4x/Slalom racer, I'm stoked to race anything and everything. And I damn well know that I am never going to get by anyone in the top 50 in a corner no matter how the track is built. Tactical racing and forced errors are pretty awesome.
Oh yes, Just one time I'd love to see a completely turf'd track with everyone racing on grass spikes... Talk about pull, precision and balls.
Thanks for the confidence, I think i could be of some help and i know that i have the passion for the sport.
Who knows about time to do it?
I don't even know what the time requirements would be?
I currently have a really great position with GT that is fulfilling and a lot of fun.
A true point man that the UCI will listen to and as the ability to create positive change i think is very much needed.
This would help a ton as there could also be regional series events, grass roots strength is needed.
In the states it would be very difficult.... you have to find a resort that is willing to let go of property used for the winter (the really money maker)
They will spend the money to build pipes as there is ROI in the winter.
DH trails get covered by snowfall....
4x courses are useless to the resort in the summer and winter as there is probably not even a quantifiable number for riders just going to the resort to ride the 4x course, there is no lift ticket involved so the ROI is food and beverage and Heads on Beds if they decide to stay over.
In Europe i think there is a much larger cycling friendly culture and more of a willingness to do projects of this nature?
double the 4X as a "boardercross" event. not sure how big it is in snowboarding, but they had it on TV the other day and it looks similar. Sure it might not be the best for both, but im sure that in 6 months it can be swapped back and forth.
Exactly my words! Just needed to say that is not only about UCI. Many resorts use the World Cup just as a one-shot promo and not keep the track for national or at least local races. Such a shame! That's what the so long discussed Euro 4X Series could help with. Some resorts cry how expensive is to build a World Cup race. It is, especially if you pull it down after the race and build again before the next World Cup... All because of winter season.
If you mean using the same track for 4X in Summer and BX in Winter then I have to say, it is not working - unfortunately. There were few resorts here in the Czech Republic trying to build a track like this but they are bad either side.
Get Sam Hill to race 4X and problem solved.
That is likely a true statement. Sam Hill races dual slalom every chance he gets, BTW.
he cleaned up on indy-cross at the us open too IIRC.
don't think for a second that he'd waste his energy doing it at a world cup DH event. regardless of the track/format the top DH guys aren't going to compete in another event at the WC level. time to move on.
The reason Hill might attract attention is because of the status he's earned as a DH racer (sort of like what happened when Palmer came back at MSA despite being conciderably off the pace). 4x needs to generate some mystique about its own riders rather than holding out hope for the stars of a different discipline to show up some day and save it.
From a spectator standpoint, i'd like it a lot better if 12 guys raced like Gracia rather than just 1.
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But...
there is an alliance.
He lost to his teammate, but collectively they did clean up.
...and also bunch of chatterers, right Stik?
free coat with each membership.
No, in all seriousness, I appreciate the passion of the guys at the top of the sport in this thread. At the World Cup level, I can see 4x being successful in the future.
But the one thing I do not see happening in America is 4x ever taking off at the grassroots level. Years ago, every single local DH race we had around here had a makeshift slalom race to go with it. All done half ass, sliding around on grass and they were honestly a ton of fun.
Once 4x came along, they were a couple of bad attempts to build courses, and then they all went away. I just raced an entire season of DH without a single 4x/slalom at ANY of the venues.
We race in a area where the racers build the courses for the promoters, and that is if the racers are not the promoters themselves. Pure grassroot ghetto, and it works out well. But building big proper 4x courses is not on the horizon.
But I have been hearing rumblings around here lately about bringing slalom back, and we should have some events around here next year. I actually just built up a slalom hardtail and built a single lane slalom course in my woods, just because I enjoy riding that stuff.
Maybe if slalom makes a comeback at the local level, then it can funnel riders to the bigger venues for 4x, but that is a big if.
Ironically enough, it was watching guys like Jared Graves race 4X and slalom in the same weekend that made me scratch my head back in the day.
At a Snowshoe National, they raced on a huge MTX course, that Snowshoe spent all this money on. Big jumps, high speed, it was obvious that a ton of effort went into the course. But the race itself was boring to watch.
And on the next slope over, Snowshoe had a slalom course on grass, where they just stuck a few poles in the ground and scratched up a berm or two.
Everybody was laughing at the course before the racing started.
And then out of nowhere, the racing was AWESOME. Super close races, and the fans were screaming. I remember the finals was Graves and Herndon, where Graves took both lanes by less than a bike length or so, and the crowd was going totally ape$hit.
Sorry for the rambling, but I just don't have an answer to help 4x at the local level.