[iRider]

The reason Hill might attract attention is because of the status he's earned as a DH racer (sort of like what happened when Palmer came back at MSA despite being conciderably off the pace).

At least he qualified for the WC what a considerable amount of current US Pros weren't able to pull off.

 

[Boom Boom]

Wow, an amazing thread that is now attracting interest worldwide!

Like a lot of the recent comments, I have just skimmed through 14 pages of interesting opinions. I am going to read through the whole thread properly tomorrow and try to give a few answers.

It seems right to me to point out there are 3 distinct groups of people who are commenting on this thread.

1. Some people have sought out this thread so they can have a moan due to a long lasting hate of 4X.
2. Some people have raced 4X a couple of times or have never raced 4X
3. Finally, the others have recent experience of 4X and have seen the changes that are currently taking place.

For me, part of the interest has been looking at which group of people each comment falls into so far. I think it is also fair to point out that in any discussion, experience of the subject that is being discussed needs to be acknowledged, and hate of the subject with no particular reasons why, simply lead me to believe they tried it once and couldn't do it so they moan about it.

For my first post I will keep it simple with a couple of essential points that confirm the current future of 4X.

4X is the only World Cup mountain bike event that is shown live on Eurosport. This show, for the European World Cups, is shown for 1.5 hours live, and then repeated 3 more times during the week which is condensed to an hour show. That is 4.5 hours of tv coverage per race on Eurosport alone. Downhill is normally shown 1 day after the event for 1 hour and repeated only once for 30 minutes. Obviously that makes 1.5 hours. Now Eurosport do not have any passion for 'Mountain Biking'. They simply show sporting events that receive interest from people sitting in their chairs at home.

Quick question for you to consider. How many times have people on forums commented:
1. That downhill tv coverage sucks?
2. It needs more cameras because the coverage is really bad?
Maybe it is the same people who moan about downhill camera coverage, that moan about a lot of other things on forums????

Anyway, the cameras on downhill are placed in locations where the camera can get the maximum amount of coverage. This is usually a long flat straight. The general public watch this and get bored very easily.

We, as mountain bikers, love watching any race coverage, but people who do not ride mountain bikes, skipping through their tv stations will stop and watch 4X because it is action packed and you get to see the whole race from start to finish. These 'same' people will skip on from downhill after only a couple of runs by riders who are normally something like 5 seconds apart at the finish. The truth is downhill is exciting to us - mountain bikers, but 4X appeals to many more people outside of mountain biking.

I think downhill is amazing, but a big root section does not look particularly impressive to anyone who does not know what they are looking at. Whereas 4X provides that amazement to Joe Public, because mountain bikes flying 40 feet in the air is something that looks amazing to them.

As for Dual Slaloms appeal on tv........well seriously, why do you think slalom at world cups was replaced by dual and ultimately 4X. Because slalom did not make for exciting tv. Yes it may be exciting at the venue for the 1,000 die hard mountain bikers, but the 50,000 sat at home find it confusing and boring.

Everyone reading this has passion for mountain biking. But....tv companies and coverage figures gives us a no BS account of what is popular to people outside of our little bubble.

Like Jared said earlier, I love riding my bikes. Anything. 4X, DH, XC, BMX, Road - whatever. I do love slalom races, but I love 4X more. The 4X tracks in 2009 have been epic, and the vast majority of riders have enjoyed every one of them. Believe me, the skill level that the riders in 4X have on hardtails on these tracks is phenomenal. It is sometimes hard to see on tv or freecaster just how rough some of these sections are. The rock sections at fort william and mont st anne in 2009 were severe. Likewise the jumps in Schladming and Maribor are big.

My points above are to do with the presentation of Mountain Biking to the general public. Without TV, there are few or no sponsors. Without sponsors there is no World Cup or elite level. Without that there is no aspiration at grass roots level and therefore just a bunch of people riding bikes.

Finally, the issues that alot of downhill team managers and 'industry' people have with 4X is that mountain biking has now found itself with a small problem. The beautiful swan (DH) now reluctantly needs it's ugly duckling (4X) for tv coverage and it has ruffled more than a few feathers within the industy.......

So beware of some derogative comments about 4X on here, because quite a few of them are from people involved in the industry who do not want to see Downhill overtaken by 4X in years to come...... The way this has been presented and packaged over the past couple of years, is that 4X should be replaced by dual slalom.

I will always remember the RIDERS meeting in Maribor a couple of years ago, when Claudio Calouri (the rider rep back then) hosted a meeting with the RIDERS to find out who wanted to change 4X back to Slalom (at this race a rumor had circulated very quickly that ALL the riders wanted to race slalom not 4X). A vote was taken and 2 riders from 90 put their hand up voting to re-vert back to slalom. An embarassing result for slalom that day......

Since then 4X has come a long way and now stands firmly on it’s own 2 feet.
It’s too late for 4X to go away and that bugs some very influencial people in our sport. Who would have thought it..... 4X..... The Saturday night side show.... being loved by tv companies and starting to go in the direction we knew it could one day.......

Cheers,

Scott Beaumont.

 

[BC VAN]

EC i know you talked about it with them before but maybe a pitch to the ABA about 4x in the US.. A Combo of you and them could do it especially now they got confirmed TV..

Tried contacting them about month and half to 2 months ago, got nothing... BMX s big business now, i am sure they have full plates?

 

[bpatterson6]

Tried contacting them about month and half to 2 months ago, got nothing... BMX s big business now, i am sure they have full plates?

EC weren't you and BA working on a project about 2yrs ago?
I'm an old school BMXer and family friend of the Anderson family going way back to before they bought the ABA from Merl Menenga. A couple of years ago BA sent me an email around that time telling me that he might see me at the MTB races soon. If you don't mind me asking, what happened? It seemed like it was progresssing along and then it was just over??

 

[BC VAN]

EC weren't you and BA working on a project about 2yrs ago?
I'm an old school BMXer and family friend of the Anderson family going way back to before they bought the ABA from Merl Menenga. A couple of years ago BA sent me an email around that time telling me that he might see me at the MTB races soon. If you don't mind me asking, what happened? It seemed like it was progresssing along and then it was just over??

I took a trip to AZ to discuss options, i would say primarily i was dealing with Clayton, but i also spoke with BA and Bernie and Shannon, meetings went well, and there definitely was interest.


reason i think it fell off were a couple.

Main reason I think was myself thinking bigger then i was capable to make a reality... when i went to meet with them originally i just thought i could scoot down there and give em a pitch and we would be on our way, as on paper it makes sense.
ha ha

After talking with them i realized there was a lot i had to learn.

I think they realized that as well and were waiting for me to make a solid commitment, of which i wasn't able to at the time as i still had a full time gig chasing titles racing.

I also think that the BMX Olympic push created full plates for those guys.

And then there was Bernie and Clayton getting ready to retire, not sure they really wanted to "raise another baby"?

I think things are a bit different now,

Olympics have come and gone... there is still more interest now in BMX but i think everyone has an idea of workloads for the next couple of years at least.

I have matured a lot as far as being reasonable about what is realistic in terms of pulling something off like this, i spent a winter working with the jeep guys as part of the ops crew to see how things get run from different levels.. WOW! very big eye opener... but i have a lot more confidence about running events now and what is realistic.

Also i am in a different stage of my career.

Which is why i tried to contact those guys.

The infrastructure and knowledge they have would be so good for starting something new for MTB, after touring the office i was very impressed with the operation they have going.

It would be a ton of work no doubt, but could be a fairly big success if done correctly, I definitely think there is room for something like that to happen for MTB in the states, and I think it would be hard to do without a company with the vast experience of running races.... as well as handling membership service's...which i think is the key!


not a complete derailment these guys would really know how to take 4x to a higher level here in the states.

 

[General Lee]

At least he qualified for the WC what a considerable amount of current US Pros weren't able to pull off.

wasn't implying that Palmer was slow, just that he instantly created a buzz despite not being a contender (he qualied almost exactly where i did the last time i raced MSA, bottom 15% with the rest of the no name slow-pros, ie non-contenders). In reality, the Palmer hype started even before he lined up for practice at his first race. All for good reason; he's a legend regardless of his results.

Much the same as if Hill entered 4x it would be big news, though i doubt very much that he would be a consistent force against the full-time 4x crowd.

My point, essentially, is that 4x needs to develop some sort of mystique from within. that is to say some hype or excitement around a 4x rider for their accomplishments in 4x rather than expecting the 'stars' of the sport to show up and bring the attention with them. Awesome as that might be, (case in point I followed BMX because i was interested in watching Graves and Kintner) it's not going to happen. 4x needs its own stars. And while Graves (for his results) and Gracia (for his race craft)come to mind immediately for me, they can't be expected to shoulder it on their own; Cedric for one is not getting any younger.

Wouldn't hurt if rivalries developed either. Something like stewart/reed/charmichael or Vouilloz/Peat, but those sort of things have to develop organically rather than simply being created.


I'll be honest, i wouldn't miss 4x if it disappeared but i would be disappointed to see it go. best to keep hoping for its improvement if in fact the UCI intends to stay committed. Being a sideshow is as good as being gone, if it's staying then it needs to be fully supported. I suppose it could be separated and run at more 4x friendly venues that don't necessarily have to play double duty to having a WC level DH on site, but i still really like the idea of keeping them together. both from a racer/spectator point of view and from a marketing/promotional perspective. 2 days of racing is better than 1.

slalom is cool, but not an answer. Slalom is a lot like xc racing, in that while wicked fun to ride/race the only people who seem to really enjoy watching it are other slalom riders. and it makes for sh*t TV.

I'm way outclassed in this discussion, but that's my 2 cents

 

[ska todd]

Wow, lots of the pro guys posting here and trying to make their "case". Very cool and I applaud their efforts to jump into the dialogue and throw jabs with the proletariat. Some well stated I must add. But it's almost as if you guys are death row inmates begging the governor for their zero hour pardon...

Now to pose a question that has been posed to me by some DH pros & team managers: What if there were a "Downhill Alliance" where the downhill pros advocated for spending a proportional amount per athlete or per spectator on their courses and prize purse? IIRC all eight DH rounds easily reached the max qualifiers of 80 athletes but 1/2 of the 4X rounds failed to even get 64 qualifiers. Or, what if that $ currently spent going into course 4X design & maintenance instead went back to the DH athletes prize purse, courses, or TV coverage, or event marketing?

I am among the biggest champions of gravity mountain bike racing in the bicycle industry. Personally to me, gated gravity disciplines are a big part of the experience and history of our sport. As Lee states above, I will not be broken up to see 4X go away but I'd be disappointed to see gated disciplines entirely die off. However, it does say something when the top ranked DHI & XCO events were those that were standalone events for their disciplines; LaBresse for DH & Offenburg for XC.

-ska todd

 

[General Lee]

Now to pose a question that has been posed to me by some DH pros & team managers: What if there were a "Downhill Alliance" where the downhill pros advocated for spending a proportional amount per athlete or per spectator on their courses and prize purse? IIRC all eight DH rounds easily reached the max qualifiers of 80 athletes but 1/2 of the 4X rounds failed to even get 64 qualifiers. Or, what if that $ currently spent going into course 4X design & maintenance instead went back to the DH athletes prize purse, courses, or TV coverage, or event marketing?



-ska todd

With 20 UCI points needed for entry in DH, and 0 needed for 4x. The sidelines at Bromont and MSA were littered with pros fast enough to qualify but w/out enough pts to race the DH, yet they had no interest in entering 4x despite training regularly on the bmx track down the street and having a huge hometown crowd to cheer them on. Instead (with the exception of Hans Lambert) they just to spectate, there's something curious about that. I'd love to see 4x stay, but it needs to grow up pretty fast.

edit: you can call it specializing, but you could make a good case for lost interest. feel free to shoot me down, but i really don't feel like 4x has filled the void left when the top DH guys departed. sure, there are still decent #'s at many euro rounds but i'd wager many of the 'top' 4x guys (small final and semi final regulars) would get the squeeze if the DHers came back. the overall talent pool is pretty shallow.

i'm a huge fan of racing but i'd be hard pressed to name off more than 10 world cup 4x riders.

 

[Metal Dude]

Everything has become so specialized these days. I didn't see many Pro 4X WC racers
who also race Pro DH. Sucks to see 4X canabalize slalom the way it has, We
used to have a cool thing going back in the day and riders were respected
for ripping at gated racing, nowadays no respect for gated racers who aren't
at the top in the DH world.
The World Champs was a great BMX race though!

 

[Transcend]

Everything has become so specialized these days. I didn't see many Pro 4X WC racers
who also race Pro DH. Sucks to see 4X canabalize slalom the way it has, We
used to have a cool thing going back in the day and riders were respected
for ripping at gated racing, nowadays no respect for gated racers who aren't
at the top in the DH world.
The World Champs was a great BMX race though!

2 of them already posted in this thread... Jared & Boom Boom. Eric did the same thing when he was racing full time.

 

[BC VAN]

Wow, lots of the pro guys posting here and trying to make their "case". Very cool and I applaud their efforts to jump into the dialogue and throw jabs with the proletariat. Some well stated I must add. But it's almost as if you guys are death row inmates begging the governor for their zero hour pardon...

Now to pose a question that has been posed to me by some DH pros & team managers: What if there were a "Downhill Alliance" where the downhill pros advocated for spending a proportional amount per athlete or per spectator on their courses and prize purse? IIRC all eight DH rounds easily reached the max qualifiers of 80 athletes but 1/2 of the 4X rounds failed to even get 64 qualifiers. Or, what if that $ currently spent going into course 4X design & maintenance instead went back to the DH athletes prize purse, courses, or TV coverage, or event marketing?

I am among the biggest champions of gravity mountain bike racing in the bicycle industry. Personally to me, gated gravity disciplines are a big part of the experience and history of our sport. As Lee states above, I will not be broken up to see 4X go away but I'd be disappointed to see gated disciplines entirely die off. However, it does say something when the top ranked DHI & XCO events were those that were standalone events for their disciplines; LaBresse for DH & Offenburg for XC.

-ska todd

Was wondering when you were going to chime in, I know how much you want to just give er here, way to keep it PC. ha ha


I think the thoughts the team managers and riders brought up are very good, especially the bit about the coverage being better with the increase of funding positioned towards it, cameras are about 7 g per..... so it gets costly to do true coverage of DH to give it the proper due it deserves.

It does sound a bit like it was brought up in spite? but good points none the less,


Boom Boom and Joost brought up some really good points about the Free Caster coverage in regards to 4x.

I have always thought that the biggest disciplines should get rewarded the most... I have always thought that a smaller purse guarantee for both men and women with the remainder to be made up based on the amount of entries would be a good way to reward the hardest classes, this should be for all disciplines i think.


I think the reason a DH Alliance hasn't been done recently is that for the most part DH has evolved into a format that everyone is content with, courses are easier to lay out then the build out of a 4x course, in general it is a mature and flourishing format.

I do think all the disciplines should have some type of channeled voice to continue growth and evolve as needed,

So i say lets see the team managers that have brought this stuff up get off the sidelines as Zed has and do it! Our sport would only get better because of it.

4x obviously needs some true guidance if it is to grow into something that is respected within and outside of our industry across the board.

As far as the events that were the highest ranked this year...Is that poll the one that is voted by the industry?


I think if an organizer was able to do a stand alone 4x event in an area that fit requirements of a true 4x course that the event would probably receive a very high rank as well, look at some of the non World Cup events that Prokop and Zed put on.... Less stuff to have organized lets the staff be more focused on the details.

 

[BC VAN]

With 20 UCI points needed for entry in DH, and 0 needed for 4x. The sidelines at Bromont and MSA were littered with pros fast enough to qualify but w/out enough pts to race the DH, yet they had no interest in entering 4x despite training regularly on the bmx track down the street and having a huge hometown crowd to cheer them on. Instead (with the exception of Hans Lambert) they just to spectate, there's something curious about that. I'd love to see 4x stay, but it needs to grow up pretty fast.

edit: you can call it specializing, but you could make a good case for lost interest. feel free to shoot me down, but i really don't feel like 4x has filled the void left when the top DH guys departed. sure, there are still decent #'s at many euro rounds but i'd wager many of the 'top' 4x guys (small final and semi final regulars) would get the squeeze if the DHers came back. the overall talent pool is pretty shallow.

i'm a huge fan of racing but i'd be hard pressed to name off more than 10 world cup 4x riders.

the top 4x guys even though are not top name guys are fast.... the gate start of a 4x race now is light years ahead of what it was just 2 years ago,

based on what i have heard there aren't a lot of top DH guys that would transfer far into the program, mostly due to the passing opportunities... oh the vicious circle here on this thread! ha ha ha

 

[General Lee]

the top 4x guys even though are not top name guys are fast.... the gate start of a 4x race now is light years ahead of what it was just 2 years ago,

based on what i have heard there aren't a lot of top DH guys that would transfer far into the program, mostly due to the passing opportunities... oh the vicious circle here on this thread! ha ha ha

.

Mitch and JD have managed to prove otherwise, at least on a track like Bromont. But I'd have to agree with you, the start would probably be a serious disadvantage. but that alone is what has some people seeing 4x as a one dimensional skill (gate start being paramount). you and i both know that isn't the full story, but the perception is out there that 4x racing is over in 100feet and akin to a dh racer only learning how to rail the same turn over and over again.

not trying to be negative, promise, but 4x has a lot of catching up to do as far as public opinion is concerned. glad you guys are being more vocal here though as its bound to help. goodness knows ridemonkey's usual 4x advocate has been far less effective.

 

[ska todd]

EC - I've been traveling a bit over the past couple weeks so my RM time has been slashed Sorry for my delayed reply.

From the Dirt site's article on the award, "The riders, teams, journalists, UCI sponsors and the UCI took part in the voting."

I'll have to request the 09 #'s for freecaster stats per discipline but in 08 the 4X numbers were a fraction of the DH. The coverage in print media is barely there. Online it is surely tilted to DH. Where are the full season documentaries on 4X racing?

Sure, there is some live Eurosport coverage but what are the actual viewership numbers for those airings? They obviously aren't the Holy Grail as there aren't (m)any teams or athletes out there raking in the non-endemic $ due to the added TV coverage.

Want to make DH look good? Take the 1/2M that goes into some of these courses and pay for some TV production of the DH. Clay, and Stu, and the Parkins more than certainly make it look cool and fast and having all of the carnage the public might want to see. The likes of Eurosport cover 4X b/c it's simpler to film and takes less cameras and staff.

To think that anyone in the bike industry is trying to kill off 4X because they see it as a threat to DH is absurdly laughable! 4X would not exist w/o DH. They would have no venues to race as no promoter is that silly to sink a couple million into a hole to see at best 100 guys to show up and race. I was hoping that having 4X at Houffalize would break it out of it's funk but speaking to a few people who were there, it was an even more marginalized side show.

-ska todd

 

[BC VAN]

.

Mitch and JD have managed to prove otherwise, at least on a track like Bromont. But I'd have to agree with you, the start would probably be a serious disadvantage. but that alone is what has some people seeing 4x as a one dimensional skill (gate start being paramount). you and i both know that isn't the full story, but the perception is out there that 4x racing is over in 100feet and akin to a dh racer only learning how to rail the same turn over and over again.

not trying to be negative, promise, but 4x has a lot of catching up to do as far as public opinion is concerned. glad you guys are being more vocal here though as its bound to help. goodness knows ridemonkey's usual 4x advocate has been far less effective.

I think when we talk about the top Dh guys we are speaking about guys like Sam Hill, Steve Peat, guys that for the most of their career's have been DH guys... greg is one of the guys who could still get up there and work his way through the pack i think.

I love to watch Mitch ride, and what he did this year was impressive, but i don't think 1 race proves otherwise.... if all the course had open lines like Bromont i think it would be another story?

I think this thread has been super productive as far as helping some of the negative mind set against 4x.

Selfishly if Dual Slalom was accepted to World Cup i might have a couple more years at the highest level. ha ha

 

[BC VAN]

EC - I've been traveling a bit over the past couple weeks so my RM time has been slashed Sorry for my delayed reply.

From the Dirt site's article on the award, "The riders, teams, journalists, UCI sponsors and the UCI took part in the voting."

I'll have to request the 09 #'s for freecaster stats per discipline but in 08 the 4X numbers were a fraction of the DH. The coverage in print media is barely there. Online it is surely tilted to DH. Where are the full season documentaries on 4X racing?

Sure, there is some live Eurosport coverage but what are the actual viewership numbers for those airings? They obviously aren't the Holy Grail as there aren't (m)any teams or athletes out there raking in the non-endemic $ due to the added TV coverage.

Want to make DH look good? Take the 1/2M that goes into some of these courses and pay for some TV production of the DH. Clay, and Stu, and the Parkins more than certainly make it look cool and fast and having all of the carnage the public might want to see. The likes of Eurosport cover 4X b/c it's simpler to film and takes less cameras and staff.

To think that anyone in the bike industry is trying to kill off 4X because they see it as a threat to DH is absurdly laughable! 4X would not exist w/o DH. They would have no venues to race as no promoter is that silly to sink a couple million into a hole to see at best 100 guys to show up and race. I was hoping that having 4X at Houffalize would break it out of it's funk but speaking to a few people who were there, it was an even more marginalized side show.

-ska todd

i will get my turn at the travel bit soon enough.

i guess the point i liked on the coverage was how euro sport puts a fair bit of 4x on...more so then the DH.

From a stand point of watching on TV, within our sport DH is King, but outside i think there is an excitement factor to 4x that people like... the carnage maybe but there is excitement in head to head sports for sure....

We also need to factor in that 4x is new to the game relative to DH, so there is obviously going to be more of a following.

I think that with added money Dh would look amazing for sure... no doubt and as i said it would give it the proper due it deserves.

i don't think anyone in the industry views it as a threat to DH... but i still think the comment about a DH alliance was thumbing it's nose at the discipline of 4x?

All of the above is really a mute point though... the whole topic is more about Dual Slalom and 4x.

So my question i guess is.... would adding Dual Slalom in place of 4x fill all the holes at World Cup that have been stated? I personally don't think so.

also check the link to the stand alone 4x event in Czech.

the footage is a bit funky but i would deem that as a successful stand alone 4x event?

 

[ilikecake]

Again, a few points in no particular order as I’m in a rush….

Todd, I know there have been loads of other RM threads along similar lines to this one over the last few years. They’ve always been noted, but I think it’s fair to say that the people who’ve started commenting recently are not the people you’ll usually find on the forums, myself included. So why get involved now? People involved in 4X are getting pretty sick of this argument and as it’s now the off season and these guys have some more time to actually get involved in the discussion online.

In the 2009 season, the number of entries in WC 4X have undeniably risen, in both Men’s and Women’s cats, at every venue except Vallnord. How can rising numbers of entries and spectators indicate a dying sport?

Houffalize 4X, an even more marginalised side event when not held alongside a DH event? This was definitely not the case. The crowds were huge, with a good atmosphere, beer, music and the racing was exciting to the crowd normally used to XC events. There was a test event on the same scale in 2008 at Houffalize with many of the same riders and this season the crowd doubled. I’d expect it to increase again in 2010.

“Half a mil” “couple of mil $” to build a 4X track? Where do you get these figures from? 9 times out of 10, 4X budgets are usually less than a 10th of this figure. Often less. DH trackbuilding costs are usually a lot higher than people expect. FW? MSA? Maribor? Champery??

Eurosport show live 4X because it’s simpler? Wrong. The TV production company use the exact same number of cameras and the same members of staff to film the 4X. Only difference is in cabling set up time for DH.
This is not a DH v 4X v DS argument. I’m sure it’s safe to say most of us love them all. Using DH as a yardstick to measure 4X? Fine, but you have to consider the context. DH is at least 10 years older than 4X, it gets more coverage in the mags etc. It’s natural that more people know about DH than 4X and therefore the numbers will be higher. DH has 1000’s of tracks worldwide, 4X has under a hundred I guess. The strength in depth in DH has been built up over a long time. 4X is still young.

4X needs some more stars, rivalries etc? Agreed 100%. Imagine where 4X would be now if Cedric had been World Champ a few years back? I think there would be some differences. He would have attracted a lot of coverage and more publicity. I think things are setting up for a good battle between Joost and Jared for the 2010 season. Joost improved a lot in 2009 and I think will give Jared some good competition. This will be very interesting.
A season documentary DVD on 4X would be amazing. It’s a very interesting world and there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes. I’ve enjoyed watching the Yeti and Atherton videos through the season as they’ve given a glimpse into this world.

DH riders on the 4X sidelines at WC races? I think this is a positive thing and again shows the strength developing in 4X. I’ve had loads of comments from top DH racers saying the tracks look rad and they’d like to ride them. I’m currently sourcing a start gate for a top WC racer from a big team who’s seriously thinking about racing some 4X next year just for fun. Did you see the whole Santa Cruz team stood next to the rock section at MSA 4X 09 with their mouths open, not believing the way Jared and the other 4X riders where bombing through the rock section? It’s been stated before that top DH riders can’t race 4X and DH and not expect to compromise. Changing to DS will not change this. I read on Twitter that Hill will race DS if it’ replaces 4X at WC. Really?? I severely doubt it.

Look, 4X exists, it’s improving and developing and most importantly, getting bigger – why cut it? Why not just let it develop? If it continues at its current rate where will it be in 10 years, when it’s the same age as DH is now?

 

[Keen Bean]

I'd say attitudes like 'Ska Todd' and the downhill purists that are a big cause of the problems for 4X ever since the start and are a good reason for it not growing so much. Like in most sports quite a few downhill riders seem to have developed a pretty bad attitude, looking down their nose at other disciplines but because we're in such a small sport a few people have a lot of influence in.

For example one of the big magazine editors is very anti 4X so they hardly do any 4X features and thats just one that I know of so how many others are the same?

Freecaster commentary is pretty biased towards DH too, for the DH Scott Beaumont’s been doing a pretty damn good job of adding some more knowledge to Warner’s commentary recently but for the 4X at schladming for example Rachel Atherton was doing it with him and neither of them really knew what was going on and they didn't really seem to care. At Bromont Jared went out early and was in the booth with Warner but instead of letting the guy that just won the World Cup give it some inside knowledge and insight into the racing they let the drunken Syndicate come in and spend the entire race pissing about and shouting so there was virtually no commentary!

I'm not saying its the only problem and not saying everyones got a bad attitude but with certain media, industry big wigs and downhill Pros giving it no respect like that is it any wonder that 4X seems to get hated on and doesn't have the support?


Just my opinion but I'm not only a 4x rider thats got annoyed, I ride and race 4X and DH and marshall any dh races I can't enter so I've got a love of both!

 

[General Lee]

In the 2009 season, the number of entries in WC 4X have undeniably risen, in both Men’s and Women’s cats, at every venue except Vallnord. How can rising numbers of entries and spectators indicate a dying sport?


“Half a mil” “couple of mil $” to build a 4X track? Where do you get these figures from? 9 times out of 10, 4X budgets are usually less than a 10th of this figure. Often less. DH trackbuilding costs are usually a lot higher than people expect. FW? MSA? Maribor? Champery??

Numbers are up, but in '09 the 4x was exempt from any UCI pt requirement. Anyone with a UCI elite license could roll up to a 4x. I can't see any reason this was done other than to prop the numbers up.

DH, on the other hand, had to institute teh 20pt rule in '07 and tighten it up even more with the removal of the trade team exemption in '09, and still the numbers are huge. almost too big at some rounds.

sorry, i just cant crunch the numbers with the same perspective you do.

As for cost, obviously DH tracks aren't cheap but they often get used by the public all season. MSA, Champery, Bromont, Shladming, Pila, Ft. William . . . the list goes on. The Bromont 4x track, wich was quaoted by the mountain's management as being in the range of a 500k investment to build and several thousand more to resurface this summer is open to the public too. once in a while someone hits the last 2 doubles on their dh bikes, but other than that it grows weeds. There was brewing discontent among some of the local riders what a waste of $$ and resources it was to be used 2 times a year by a few dozen people when that money could have gone into other improvements on the DH trails used by thousands from May-October.

The "if you build it, they will come" mentality might just not be realistic? To be honest, its much the same stuff being said when Franc Roman was getting shown the door and Phil, thank goodness, was being brought in. 5 years later and its a bit of deja vous. no?

edit:
It's curious that 8 years out the sport that was supposed to 'save' gravity racing is trying to get off life support. 4x was supposed to save dh racing, and dh ended up saving itself. I can't see how 4x can thrive on a WC level until it flourishes at a local level. right now, as far as much of n. america is concerned it is completely non-existant. DH, XC, freeride, etc all grew from the ground up, not from the top down.

 

[BC VAN]

500k is absurd really, if they paid that much they better have got a reach around as well. ha ha

I don't think 4x was ever touted as a savior for DH,I don't ever remember a time when DH really needed saving? I do think it was touted as being a viable vehicle for television coverage and could be positioned how SX is to MX, of which i don't think it has lived up to yet.

The point about growing from the ground up is fundamental and without it 4x will never grow, BMX is firmly embedded with grass roots, local tracks are everywhere....

In the states i think we will always have hurdles due to 4x needing a hill, cost, liability and less return on investment.

In Europe (a more cycling friendly culture) it seems to be growing with a lot more acceptance.

I wonder if the US is the only country struggling with the 4x situation?

For the most part it seems like other countries have embraced 4x, they realize the growing pains will need to be gone through but are looking at it in a positive light?

I also wonder how prevalent was Dual Slalom in Europe before Dual and 4x?

I do have to say that growing up racing BMX in the 70's 80's and 90's I always heard talk of Olympics.... and i also heard the nay sayers (myself included) talking down on the sport and all of the negative things associated with BMX and why it would never make the cut,

But it evolved, people believed, the sport got organized with passionate people and now we have BMX racers doing interviews on nationally televised morning talk shows!

I am not saying 4x will be there, just throwing out some food for thought.

 

[ilikecake]

Bromont 4X $500k?? Try $60K Canadian. Still a lot of money but nowhere near half a million!

The track at Bromont can easily be modified to be more suitable for the general public. Wouldn't cost much. Already made these suggestions to the mountain there. Also, simple things like adding a link that would flow off the DH track onto the 4X track. I've also suggested starting a local series either stand alone or even better, with Mont Sainte Anne.

Most National Federations vetted 4X entries for WCs, so that not just anyone could enter. Sure, the lack of 20pt rule must have increased the numbers but the main reason for its inclusion was the lack of points scoring 4X races below WC level. It's not that there aren't any 4X races below WC level but that these races don't have UCI points. The previous season, numbers were down because new riders couldn't earn points to qualify. As older riders dropped out, there were fewer riders eligible to race, therefore lower numbers.

 

[ska todd]

My "hate" for 4X is not anything directed toward you guys personally. Let's clarify that and put it directly on the table. It is more strictly about dollars and cents and the economies of it. I have been afforded a unique view of our sport as an "insider", particularly seeing the sport from the angles of product development, marketing, and governing. I'll also gladly go on record as often being a loudmouth, sometimes a jackass, but always being a fan and champion of the sport of mountain bike racing.

What has this lead me to? Why am I this vocal on the topic? It goes back to dollars and cents, simple budgeting. Where do I want to see the dollars go to see the best ROI? My conclusion based on the hard numbers is that it should not be in 4X...at least right now.

Does that sting some people? Obviously yes. It stung me at first. I was shot down many times by sponsors...scratch that - LAUGHED AT!...when presenting top tier 4X riders in team proposals. I have had to walk out of budget meetings with my tail between my legs when getting turned down for supporting or wanting to sponsor 4X events or athletes. I have had 4X inventory sit there for months unsold and have had 4X specific product cut from product lines for lack of interest by distributors and dealers.

Some of you guys making your case almost seem to be playing chicken here. Threatening to take your ball and go home if you don't get some Rodney and Aretha style respect. I almost want to say "then go for it" or "godspeed". But, then again I like you guys and want mountain biking to be a big tent that is inclusive to all possible.

I compel you to prove guys like me wrong; stand on your own two feet. In our sport both downhill and "freeride" have done it. "Enduro/all mountain" has started doing it in the past couple seasons. Cyclocross has done it very well too. If you don't want the DH scene then don't use it as a crutch.

I look at 4X like any other product management decision. Sure, some personal thoughts and instinct get mixed in but I try to keep emotion clear of it. I look at this like three other products I personally love to hate on; 29" wheels, remote lockouts, and dual control brake/shift levers. None are too much on the gravity spectrum but all are things I have had to tackle from a product management perspective.

29" wheels have shown huge sales numbers that while I might personally not vibe with them have carved out a justifiable market and one that I recently have been studying with gusto.

Remote lockouts on shocks in the bike industry have become "It's a Swiss thing" (akin to saying something is "big in Japan"). You don't get it. You ain't gonna get it. You don't wanna get it. But, they fit that market to a tee and it's a regional preference and at the end of the day it doesn't fundamentally distort the product.

Dual control (and/or gripshift) is another case altogether. Here's a product that big names developed and aggressively marketed...and it flopped hard. No amount of life support would save it. Sure, some people still like it (you know, Swiss guys with lockout on 29'rs ) but by-and-large it does not have any pull in the market and thus is widely discredited.

At the end of the day I want what is best for the sport. I'm not quite the purist or retro grouch some might think I am. I have called for the sanctioning of dirt jump & slopestyle by NGBs for example. But, I want to see the sport happy, healthy, and profitable.

Why do I keep coming back to dual slalom? Well, maybe some of it is nostalgia but a lot of it is in the grassroots. It's bloody simple to put on, it's a hoot to race, and it's all inclusive. We maybe went toward 4X b/c we assumed the grass was greener...but myself and others are now thinking it very well might not be.

Let's use the two biggest mountain bike events in North America as prime examples. Both Sea Otter and Crankworx scrapped their 4X events due to high costs, logistics problems, & low turn outs. Dual slalom at both of these events is where the fun is at. It draws the traditional gated athletes as well as the DH guys. Isn't this what we're after or are we looking to make an event that caters to a few specific guys?

Maybe 4X is something that me being an American will never get my head around...you know, like how you Euros don't understand 29'rs, Nascar, or the 2nd Amendment. Maybe 4X is "big in Japan"

-ska todd

 

[IH8Rice]

i seen a lot of people comment about DS being "hard to follow"

what is so hard about trying to figure out whoever gets to the bottom first b/w two people wins. even with a double elmination format, its still pretty easy.

its like Thunderdome...two man enter, one man leave


people seem to be able to follow slalom skiing with no problem.

 

[Salty4X]

i seen a lot of people comment about DS being "hard to follow"

what is so hard about trying to figure out whoever gets to the bottom first b/w two people wins. even with a double elmination format, its still pretty easy.

its like Thunderdome...two man enter, one man leave


people seem to be able to follow slalom skiing with no problem.

Holy hell, slalom is easy to understand. Twice as easy as your posts.

 

[davetrump]

A few questions more business oriented, because at the end of the day it is still about selling more bikes.

How many 4x bikes get sold? How many of the bikes ridden by top WC guys are even produced? Maybe I am out of the loop but they all seem like on offs.

if I were a shop owner would I want to stock a 4x bike? who is my target consumer? where is the closest 60k track that holds races?

Can I ride 4x by myself like i can DH and XC?

I understand part of racing is to develop products, so what products have been developed through 4x that now enhance the bikes available at the local bikes shop?

We have seen how much 4x costs... I am just curious what the possible return on investment is?

If I were a team manager and had the budget to add a rider to the program would my sponsors get a better value if I added an up and coming Jr. rider or a 4x rider?

in most sports (skiing, snowboarding, motorsports, other cycling diciplines, etc) the racing at the top level is supported by events that begin at the grass routes level and work their way up. Trying to grow a sport from the top down is pretty tough.

not hating... just trying to ask some questions to counter this discussion. and it is nice to see the top riders in the sport, the track builder, and those with doubts/questions having a good solid debate on here.

it is all good.... hopefully in a few years the economy turns around and we are all laughing at how silly this debate was.

 

[caseyo]

A few questions more business oriented, because at the end of the day it is still about selling more bikes.

How many 4x bikes get sold? How many of the bikes ridden by top WC guys are even produced? Maybe I am out of the loop but they all seem like on offs.


It's not about that. They used to sell Mountain Dew because of downhill. They sold Jeeps because of those races. Open your mind a little.

 

[MDJ]

This is the best thread on RM for a loooong time. Great discussion points from both sides of the fence. It actually has we wanting to go out and ride more DS and 4x both, kinda like a great video. Thanks to all those who decided to jump in and participate - keep it coming.

I think this thread should dethrone the Sunday thread as the lone Sticky at the top.

 

[ska todd]

It's not about that. They used to sell Mountain Dew because of downhill. They sold Jeeps because of those races. Open your mind a little.

"Used to" being the key phrase there...if they ever sold anything due to mountain biking could be debatable as neither company is still involved in the sport to any degree.

-ska todd

 

[General Lee]

It's not about that. They used to sell Mountain Dew because of downhill. They sold Jeeps because of those races. Open your mind a little.

Um, yes, it is about selling bikes. GT doesn't sponsor Mick Hannah to sell cars. You are referring to an era 10+ years in the past, when outside sponsors flooded the scene for a short period in the late 90's. When America (and it's huge consumer market) was the epicenter of MTB racing, NORBA Nationals were arguably of higher value/interest than the world cup, and 35,000 people would come to Mt. Snow to watch the races. Those are days gone by.

The term ROI (return on investment) keeps coming up, and with the absence of many outside sponsors teams have to be thoughtful where they put their money. Saab, Solomen, Subaru, Monster are the only 4 outside sponsors i can immediatly think of with a presence on the gravity circuit. None of these teams has a 4x rider either. Dan Atherton has had a sweet custom titanium 4x bike for 2 years now. Where's the Commencal add in the magazines? If they can't sell the bike to their core consumer base, it makes for a pretty lousy Mt Dew bilboard.

 

[BC VAN]

A few questions more business oriented, because at the end of the day it is still about selling more bikes.

How many 4x bikes get sold? How many of the bikes ridden by top WC guys are even produced? Maybe I am out of the loop but they all seem like on offs.

if I were a shop owner would I want to stock a 4x bike? who is my target consumer? where is the closest 60k track that holds races?

Can I ride 4x by myself like i can DH and XC?

I understand part of racing is to develop products, so what products have been developed through 4x that now enhance the bikes available at the local bikes shop?

We have seen how much 4x costs... I am just curious what the possible return on investment is?

If I were a team manager and had the budget to add a rider to the program would my sponsors get a better value if I added an up and coming Jr. rider or a 4x rider?

in most sports (skiing, snowboarding, motorsports, other cycling diciplines, etc) the racing at the top level is supported by events that begin at the grass routes level and work their way up. Trying to grow a sport from the top down is pretty tough.

not hating... just trying to ask some questions to counter this discussion. and it is nice to see the top riders in the sport, the track builder, and those with doubts/questions having a good solid debate on here.

it is all good.... hopefully in a few years the economy turns around and we are all laughing at how silly this debate was.

You are correct, it is about selling bikes, and both you and Ska Todd bring up some good points about 4x bikes not selling and left over inventory and things of that nature.

But lets make sure we keep the topic of the thread in mind here, is Dual Slalom a better gated racing format for world cups.

A lot of what i am seeing is that DH not Dual Slalom is being compared to 4x when it is trying to shed a negative light on 4x from a ROi and financial side of things.

If we take 4x in the above paragraph and replace it with Dual Slalom it seems to fit to me on all points except the cost, but to have a good grass roots 4x course doesn't need to cost 60k or even 10k.

 

[Oggy1]

also check the link to the stand alone 4x event in Czech.
the footage is a bit funky but i would deem that as a successful stand alone 4x event?

that event was amazing, 4X stand alone in some dodgy suburb of praque and crazy ammount of peole watching, zdenk pol organised that, did i not say before he knows the score, anyways i got to stop been so negative, whos gonna make the decision that 4X is either full mountain biking or upscaled bmx on mountain bikes????

 

[slyfink]

How many 4x bikes get sold? How many of the bikes ridden by top WC guys are even produced? Maybe I am out of the loop but they all seem like on offs.

if I were a shop owner would I want to stock a 4x bike? who is my target consumer? where is the closest 60k track that holds races?

Can I ride 4x by myself like i can DH and XC?

correct me if I'm wrong, but since this debate is a lot about 4x vs. DS, wouldn't DS bikes be similar to 4x bikes? My point being, from a marketing perspective DS isn't any better for selling bikes than 4x bikes. I think. I've never raced either so what do I know.

I just know that I've been enjoying watching 4x more and more on Freecaster lately. I watch the DS footage from Crankworx and Sea Otter because as a follower of the sport it's pretty amazing to see how fast those guys can rip those tiny little berms, and because it's usually well edited into 5 minute clips. I think I'd poke my eyes out if I had to sit through an hour and a half of that though. Maybe it's more fun in person caus' there's a crowd and a vibe... but I doubt you'd get non-mtbers interested in watching DS.

4x on the other hand... much more fun to watch for a non-mtber. and if it gets to be on TV, then someone is going to make money (even if it is only the TV company through sales of ads). However, it does get the entire sport more exposure, and might get someone to say "hey, that looks fun, I have a couple of buddies that have a mtb, maybe I should try it too". Then they head over to their local shop and pick up a nice entry level bike, let's say for the sake of illustration, a GT...

All this to say, I think that 4x has more mass market appeal than DS, and even if you're not going to sell many 4x bikes, you'll still sell other bikes. Just the same as DH. I doubt many people see a DH race and run out and buy a DH bike. I'd be willing to wager that most people that watch DH are riding a mid-level xc bike and putt putt around local trails on weekends.

In the end, my understanding is that most manufacturers sponsor elite level racers not to sell the high-end bikes those elite riders ride or for the love of racing, but rather to gain exposure for their brand and sell more entry to mid-level bikes isn't it? To wrap up my point, I think 4x accomplishes this better than DS would because it has more mass market appeal.

 

[Chris Roberts]

correct me if I'm wrong, but since this debate is a lot about 4x vs. DS, wouldn't DS bikes be similar to 4x bikes? My point being, from a marketing perspective DS isn't any better for selling bikes than 4x bikes.

The ROI question? i think that quote pretty must answers that one

 

[ska todd]

^ and that brings us back to the DS vs 4X question...

If dual slalom was the preferred gated racing discipline we'd very well see increased participation on the amateur and pro level at least here in N. America. This would in itself push sales. If it were adopted at a WC level and the DH heroes also raced DS,you might also expect a bump from sales there as well; assuming that the endemic media (print, web, & video) would be more apt to cover it.

-ska todd

 

[davetrump]

correct me if I'm wrong, but since this debate is a lot about 4x vs. DS, wouldn't DS bikes be similar to 4x bikes? My point being, from a marketing perspective DS isn't any better for selling bikes than 4x bikes. I think. I've never raced either so what do I know.

sorry... the title of this thread "the future of 4x" and the last few pages of this thread led me to believe it was a discussion about how to move 4x forward, and how to make it work on a WC level, and why there is quite a bit of dissatisfaction with the current model... not a debate of slalom vs. 4x... maybe that theme has been burried in this thread.

I am definitely not arguing slalom would be better... no way.

I am just bringing up some points in regards to why 4x is having trouble progressing right now.

 

[Joost]

^ and that brings us back to the DS vs 4X question...

If dual slalom was the preferred gated racing discipline we'd very well see increased participation on the amateur and pro level at least here in N. America. This would in itself push sales. If it were adopted at a WC level and the DH heroes also raced DS,you might also expect a bump from sales there as well; assuming that the endemic media (print, web, & video) would be more apt to cover it.

-ska todd

It's time that we create our own stars in 4X! And we need the media and the bike industry to accomplish this. If the websites and magazines put more 4X in, that would help a lot. I get a bit tired of people keep saying that this and that will bring Sam or Peat back in 4X or DS, we need our own Heroes! Help to create them, a good start will be to give 4X more room on websites
and in magazines!

 

[stiksandstones]

I heard boom boom dropped into this thread and had to see it...all kinds of celebs coming out of the wood work.

As for the whole 'does 4X sell bikes'...in most cases sponsoring a rider in 'any' discipline of 'any' caliber is more about the impression it makes on a potential customer. Sure Uncle Johnny might not buy Kovariks jump bike or Jill Kintners 4X bike, but he might just see them on the web/tv/magazine/at an event and it will breed confidence in the Intense cycles brand for this guy. He may NEVER ever try or want to try riding 4X or slalom, or dirt jumps, but he might want a DH bike or an XC bike and the Intense impression has been made on him.

I was never a firm believe in the "Johnny Pro" directly sells a bike from 'racing'...they get sold by making an impression on people in SOOOO many other avenues.

It's this very reason Dos-Equis, Mountain Dew, Coors Light, Saab, VW, Toyota and 100s of other marquee brands ever got involved in MTB racing, because of the garnered impressions world wide, not solely from winning bike races.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Jost, Mr. Boom, and others who see some of our love of slalom as a conflict with 4x, etc..
Please do and continue to develop fourcross stars.
We can't do it here in America... Our country especially the national governing bodies and municipalities that we have to deal with do not make building, maintaining and promoting races on viable 4x tracks possible. We don't get NGB or local or regional municipal funding to cover building permanent tracks...

What makes 4x great is that you don't need to "do" 4x to be good at it. A season or 4 racing dual slalom, proper physical preparation, playing on a DH bike and a few nights a week at the local ABA or NBL track are all that's needed.

America and 4x are incompatible in the current climate. American's racing 4x right now competively at the top level most certainly isn't.
The future of 4x in the US is not the future of 4x worldwide.
The demands of our market are much,much different due to the vast size of our country and even on the east coast, the dispersed nature of our racing scene, and most importantly the way we influence consumers here.

IMO, gated racing is gated racing... There are different variants with slightly different demands- but fundamentally it always comes down to preparation-- Nights of gates and straights, gym time, and a good head.

We can develop athletes here, if they are motivated that can beat everyone else in the world... but they aren't going to be "homegrown 4x prodigies".

If anything, in the over-saturated consumer culture we have here in the US, the single greatest barrier we have with 4x, besides the fact that it is nearly impossible to have an economically (or even Stoke-enomically) sustainable venue is that American bike riders often mirror our society as a whole. They want to consume conspicuously primarily- Then they want to underutilized their expensive equipment alone in the woods so they avoid judgment by their peers.

When the option is available for a 20 pound overweight but super excited, starry-eyed new racer is available to either use their shiny new gravity powered bike alone in the woods after taking a chairlift up, or pushing up a hill and riding in front of a group of his peers, we almost always have people taking the easier, and less judged option... Every country has wankers... America being America, we just have lots of wankers, and even more possible racers who enjoy watching the wankers wank....

The lack of possible sustainable venues is our primary problem. The secondary problem is perception on behalf of our participants, and their own perceived value for their racing dollar. 4X is an extremely demanding fitness and skill intensive sport performed in front of a lot of people. Recreational racers (~80% of our total participants in the gravity disciplines) just can't get into it... To much intimidation, to steep a learning curve, to many skills your average mountain biker has never been exposed to (pack riding(passing in general), start gates, proper rhythm sections).
Because of this we have no grass-roots excitement for 4x except from burnt out BMX 19experts... Our basic DH racers rarely possess the confidence to go out on the track and learn by doing.

Our mountainbikers can not make the connection that 4x is even a sport for them. Anyone can race 4x, but certainly not on a pro-level track.

I hope you can all see the vicious cycle we have here.

There are literally no costs involved in promoting a slalom race in your back yard....
If we are going to get Americans to think about gated racing, we need to start somewhere. A top-down approach will never be effective here.

Here in America, IMO our only unregulated form of speech is commercial speech. People like me(at Spooky, a tiny little passion-pit) and product managers at companies like Specialized, Cannondale Sports Group, Giant and Trek have the power to influence consumers. In America, especially Corporate America(of which most of our bike industry is rapidly becoming a part of), ROI is king. For those of us in a position to change things for the better for gated racing- we go where we can make money.

In the US that's slalom. We can sell the media, not just through our marketing dollars, but the products we offer and the enthusiasm we have for the sport support for gated racing on an unprecedented scale. We can sell local bike clubs the idea of DS. We can talk to our next door neighboor, get some insurance, and have all the slalom races we want for the price of some flags and a 3 moto elimination system instead of timing.

Because our races are so damn small, the time-sink of what DS used to be on the elite level aren't a problem... We can see DS races on a beyond superb track(Highland Mtn) draw as few as 11 riders, while Aaron Chase is on the next slope over building a stunt for a video part and wishing he could race...

Here as it did in the late '90s 4x can, will and must come from Slalom.

Give us 10 years. We'll have some vibrant domestic 4x racing- We just need to build a scene from the bottom up!
Here, in the "land of the free" the bottom up starts with people in power with agendas persuading their management to follow the dollar. On a grand scale, we must build this sport the American way. Through exploiting the relative weakness and depth of our bike media ,marketing products that make DS (and ds bikes are of course 4x bikes) look attractive, and setting the example of DIY grassroots racing as being a legitimate market segment is how we will help all of you on the world stage.

Infecting the masses with slalom and letting them stew into a gated-racing frenzy are our only hope here.

For 4x to be strong, we need people on both sides of the Atlantic racing it.

To convince most Americans to do anything, they need to have it sold to them. It's what they know!
It doesn't have to be creep or exploitive...one taste of DS, in our experience here in the last few months on the east coast bears this out...

Get people on the gate! That is what matters over here...

 

[ska todd]

It's time that we create our own stars in 4X! And we need the media and the bike industry to accomplish this. If the websites and magazines put more 4X in, that would help a lot. I get a bit tired of people keep saying that this and that will bring Sam or Peat back in 4X or DS, we need our own Heroes! Help to create them, a good start will be to give 4X more room on websites and in magazines!

Joost, you missed the line where I clearly said "at least here in N. America". A bike ain't gonna sell itself without marketing of some sorts. In the N American market if you're going to sell a purpose built race bike you better have 1. athletes in that genre being marketed in the market (not always necessarily your brand but at least someone) and 2. access for the product to be used by the consumer for its intended use. We don't have either with 4X in N. America right now.

The primary print mags that cover our sport here (decline, Bike, Mountain Bike, MBA) rarely-if-ever cover 4X. Even the imported Brit mags (Dirt, MBR, MBUK) barely cover it.

As for web coverage, again it is sparse at very best. Almost any of the content of 4X in these is user driven. The main N American news sites such as cyclingnews, velonews, & vitalmtb don't give much coverage. On the international sites such as dirt and bikeradar the coverage isn't a whole lot more and certainly skewed toward DH. The user forums are generally the best source for 4X relevant news & info but, even that isn't really moving the needle.

Finally, in video it is again hard to find any sort of real coverage of 4X. In the daily event re-caps and video press releases from teams the footage is mainly DH. Some 4X is shown but it's not the focus of the attention. For sites like freecaster, looking at the "most popular all-time" search and 4X doesn't even show up until the third page. The stats are dominated by DH and freeride...even XCO made the top ten. For the major feature videos (Clay, Freeride Entertainment, Collective/Anthill) again they rarely have 4X coverage; they are predominantly DH race, freeride, and dirt jump.

Most of the major brands have or have had top tier 4X athletes on their brand's product. This doesn't give an automatic pass to success for the brands with these media outlets. I have been the one making the calls & emails asking for more coverage and in general the response is not very warm or favorable. There are a lot of niches and disciplines to cover for these guys and their page space/budgets/staff is limited.

All of this goes hand-in-hand with lack of venues to use the product. As discussed here and elsewhere, the dynamics of constructing and maintaining 4X tracks in the US are different than in Europe. Without having a revenue generating participant base an event promoter is not willing to build the proper track. Without the proper tracks it makes developing regional and national pros a more difficult task. Then the cycle just begins to repeat and reinforce itself.

Feel free to develop your own heroes, I encourage it wholeheartedly. It can and should be done but you have a lot of competition from other riding disciplines and you face an uphill battle for sure.

-ska todd

 

[Zdenek Pol]

I am among the biggest champions of gravity mountain bike racing in the bicycle industry.

Todd, are you the proud author of that piece of **** beginning with "I hate four-cross" posted at Bicycling web site? Please confirm. Thanks.