[Toshi]

Something like the motorcycle would be great for commuting, although depending on the price tag I'm not sure how much you would actually save. I ride an R1 (the same bike I know you have had) and routinely get @30mpg. I think the hard part for most of America to swallow would be spending $15K+ on a vehicle that can't make road trips or serve all of your needs. Also, I have never seen any electric vehicles address the idea of a truck. There are just a lot of hurdles to purely electric vehicles that aren't simple to address or implement, especially to replace an industry with an immense infrastructure...all politics aside.

It's not just about money, although if gas prices really rise it could pay off down the road. It's about using less oil, for the environment, for national security, and because EVs are quiet, torquey down low, and novel.

With regard to never haven seen an EV truck, that just shows that you haven't been looking. Ford offered a Ranger EV and Chevy an S-10 EV back when CARB required a token number of ZEVs to be sold. Additionally, companies are producing (as in today) short range EV semi-tractors for use at ports for moving around trailers, and there also exist at least in prototype form EV delivery vans and the like from the Transit Connect EV to full-size commercial vehicles (see below).

http://www.smithelectric.com/products.aspx

 

[kazlx]

To make the idea viable, it is about money. The general population isn't going to go out of their way to be environmentally responsible if it negatively impacts their wallet. I just said I haven't seen an electric truck that I know of, not that they don't exist. As far as Rangers and S-10s, not really fitting the bill of a truck. Build a full size that can tow and move an actual load if you want to piqué my interest. Short range port vehicles and prototypes are a long ways from filling American roadways and being adopted by the general public. Hell, I wouldn't even call the Prius as being adopted by the general public. I see a lot of them here I'm SoCal but I think it has more to do with the tree hugging hippie image than anything else. I'm playing devil's advocate, and obviously there are more reasons to pursue alternate power vehicles, but I'm just pointing out it is nowhere near being a common reality.

I would love to have a car I could drive for pennies a day rather than $3 a gallon, but it's not happening any time soon.

 

[jimmydean]

Something like the motorcycle would be great for commuting, although depending on the price tag I'm not sure how much you would actually save. I ride an R1 (the same bike I know you have had) and routinely get @30mpg. I think the hard part for most of America to swallow would be spending $15K+ on a vehicle that can't make road trips or serve all of your needs.

The cost of the Empulse 10.0 is right at $12k before incentives. In Oregon, that's $1500 off the top, then the feds kick in a tax credit on top of it. So when all told, the bike ends up being less than $10k easy.

Yes, it doesn't fit ALL my needs, but the Empulse does over 100mph and will go for more than what I run on average.

For me, it's not about the cost savings of day to day commuting. It's about filling my need (getting to work mostly) and doing it with minimal impact. The Enertia was a good concept from them and would be fun in a city environment. But I have a lot of twisties to cover and doing it on a large Vespa isn't as fun.

Just like adding solar to my house would cost way more than I would save in a long time, it would reduce my impact AND fill my needs. Cheap energy from fossil fuels is a dead end since it is not a renewable resource.

If I can get a bike that has at least the performance of my Triumph Speed Triple with the impact of a Razor Scooter without selling organs, I'm down.

 

[kazlx]

That makes sense and is something I would consider. I would love to do the solar thing for my house, but it's hard to justify $15-20K+ when my electric bill is $75 or less. On the other hand, it would be nice to leave the the temp set at 73 degrees and not have to worry about the cost. I dig the electric motorcycle, actually. I despise the idea of driving a Prius because I enjoy driving. It's just not a fun car to drive. I would be more inclined to buy something like the Tesla.

 

[jimmydean]

As taken from http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/brammo-empulse-this-changes-everything

The big issue here is price/performance parity with internal combustion engines. When you consider the Ducati Streetfighter that’s currently in the A&R garage only gets about 130 miles on a tank of gas, and costs $14,995 retail, the Empulse 10.0 becomes a vary attractive option to consumers. Obviously there are cheaper motorcycles that get better range than the Streetfighter, but the point is that for the first time, production electric motorcycles are creeping onto the performance figures of ICE motorcycles, while remaining affordable to the average consumer…or in the case of the Empulse, extremely affordable.

<edit>I was lucky to get 120 miles a tank on my R1, but I was flying, too. It's a steep price considering I built my R1 for about $15k, but to only worry about finding an outlet rather than how much cash I have on me when the light goes on would be awesome.

 

[jimmydean]

And while I would not drive a Prius with a smile, I would drive this:

Honda CR-Z

<edit> While not as "green" as a Prius, it aint bad, either.

EPA Estimated Fuel Economy, MT (City/Highway/Combined): 31/37/34 miles per gallon with a starting price under $20k with a 6 speed manual.

 

[C.P.]

What's your source for household electricity usage?

I ask because you're way off for the BEV number. The Leaf has a 24 kWh pack for its nominally 100 mile range, so I doubt it's swallowing 50 kWh per charge. Hell, even a Tesla "only" has a 53 kWh battery, and it's going way further than 100 miles if it drains that pack. Typical energy consumption numbers thrown about for general EVs are in the neighborhood of 200 Wh/mile.

My avg household KWh consumption #'s were taken from USEIA. The numbers for avg household KWH consumption are all over the map to be honest, I've seen everything from 450KWH/Mo to 950KWH/Mo.

No need to roll your eyes, there isn't a "standard" KWH consumption number for BEV's, there never will be, so I came up with an avg. number myself. My number is nothing more then an educated guess, it's a combo of current BEV KWH ratings and what I think will become realistic with regard to the size and needs of a typical American thirst for a decent sized (electric) car (or if there are two N leaf's in the garage) which makes 50KWH per day per FAMILY probable...my point wasn't to make BEV's look bad in any way, but rather to point out the realistic KWH consumption we'll have in a household (read: 1 electric meter & bill representing electric consumption, per family) and compare that to woodsguy's dream of solar panels and the placing of a solar panel on everything to solve energy problems....and looking at the consumption of electricity in our country, a lot has to change, A LOT...

 

[C.P.]

for national security,

This one concerns me, and personally I dont like this argument...again, not against BEV's AT ALL, but lets be realistic here, we will be consuming a ****load of resources from other parts of the world to manufacture electric cars...

 

[zdubyadubya]

EPA Estimated Fuel Economy, MT (City/Highway/Combined): 31/37/34 miles per gallon with a starting price under $20k with a 6 speed manual.

Why is 31/37/34 a big deal? My commuter car, a manual '97 2-dr civic gets 32 on a bad day, 37 on a 60mph/highway only trip.

This is my main confusion about most of these new cars... everybody is using electric assist to gain fuel economy but the fuel economy was already there 10 years ago... why arent we at 50 or 60 or even 70 mpg by now?

 

[jimmydean]

Why is 31/37/34 a big deal? My commuter car, a manual '97 2-dr civic gets 32 on a bad day, 37 on a 60mph/highway only trip.

This is my main confusion about most of these new cars... everybody is using electric assist to gain fuel economy but the fuel economy was already there 10 years ago... why arent we at 50 or 60 or even 70 mpg by now?

My '89 CRX got 48mpg on a bad day, too. But modern cars are heavier (this has been covered in other threads).

If they outlawed lifted F350s for commuting then maybe we wouldn't require 42 air bags in a compact car.

 

[IH8Rice]

why arent we at 50 or 60 or even 70 mpg by now?

TDi

 

[stevew]

TDi

i wonder what kind of mileage you could get building a locost7 and using a TDi?

 

[IH8Rice]

i wonder what kind of mileage you could get building a locost7 and using a TDi?

one of these you mean?

the engine would probably weigh as much as the chassis, but with a 5 or 6 speed, im sure you can get ridiculous numbers

 

[jimmydean]

i wonder what kind of mileage you could get building a locost7 and using a TDi?

Or a Smyth Performance G3f (VW TDi mid engine):

 

[IH8Rice]

Or a Smyth Performance G3f (VW TDi mid engine):

wow, i really like that. and its apparently by the Factory Five guys

 

[jimmydean]

wow, i really like that. and its apparently by the Factory Five guys

He started Smyth Performance to launch the new line. The story is he was originally building it around the VR6 until he saw the TDi specs.

Here's the build thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=262728

 

[zdubyadubya]

TDi

true dat. when will retarded america realize that diesel is good. either that or vw just needs to start making better cars to put that motor in.

 

[MMike]

We put a vw TDI into a 1995 Intrepid for an HEV competition way back when.....

 

[IH8Rice]

true dat. when will retarded america realize that diesel is good. either that or vw just needs to start making better cars to put that motor in.

Golf? Jetta? Touareg (eh, not so much) great cars that have the TDi.
VW has always stood by their diesel tech, not will have a all electric vehicle in 2-3 years....thats too bad

 

[zdubyadubya]

Golf? Jetta? Touareg (eh, not so much) great cars that have the TDi.
VW has always stood by their diesel tech, not will have a all electric vehicle in 2-3 years....thats too bad

golf... eh, jetta... no way, touareg... only if its this one...

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o47pb2Mt56E[/link]

 

[IH8Rice]

golf... eh, jetta... no way, touareg... only if its this one...

the golf won multiple car of the years in multiple years. and the new jetta is fantastic.

a old customer of mine had the first V10 TDi Touareg that was badass...only VW suv with a diesel in the states before they decided to drop it. the Q7 TDi is ridiculous and no American would understand it.

 

[zdubyadubya]

yeah... my opinions, and they are just that, no real proof, were based mostly on older experiences. the golf i could never really get over the looks although i test drove one and it was fantastic. the new jettas do look sweet but i hope VW gets their electrical ghosts sorted out. that and the old jettas were turds.

why wouldn't america understand a v-12 tdi?

and back to the conversation at hand:

The future of the automobile is DIESEL. And here is how it can be done...

 

[IH8Rice]

the new jettas do look sweet but i hope VW gets their electrical ghosts sorted out. that and the old jettas were turds.

why wouldn't america understand a v-12 tdi?

and back to the conversation at hand:

The future of the automobile is DIESEL. And here is how it can be done...

i love VW's, but wouldnt buy one because of all the problems our A4 has and all the problems everyone else i know has with the stupid electrical problems.

American wouldnt understand a massive 6.0L turbo V12 diesel because they cant even comprehend the awesomeness of even a small 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo diesel.

 

[FlyinPolack]

Diesel is a great idea, until your stuck behind one in traffic.
They smell terrible

 

[IH8Rice]

Diesel is a great idea, until your stuck behind one in traffic.
They smell terrible

old diesels do, yes. modern ones pollute less than gas vehicles.

 

[stevew]

i'd like the V12 TDi in a CC please.

 

[zdubyadubya]

Diesel is a great idea, until your stuck behind one in traffic.
They smell terrible

thank you for eloquently illustrating why diesel is struggling to take a foothold. the current emission levels mandated for diesel engines are much more strict than gasoline engines just as IH8Rice pointed out. And they are just going to get cleaner. An extreme example: a new EU mercedez-benz tractor (think 18-wheeler americans...) currently emits less atmospheric pollutants than ANY car produced for the US market that isn't at least PZEV certified.

Doubt you can smell what doesn't exist. And biodiesel conversions smell tasty!

 

[jimmydean]

old diesels do, yes. modern ones pollute less than gas vehicles.

Or my 2000 F350 running B99. Crazy low emissions but still sucks for mileage (yet WAY better than its gas brothers).

 

[IH8Rice]

Or my 2000 F350 running B99. Crazy low emissions but still sucks for mileage (yet WAY better than its gas brothers).

is it because of the B99?

 

[jimmydean]

is it because of the B99?

I get about a mile less per gallon running B99 but it runs WAY better. Quieter, smoother, and has better throttle response. I can notice the difference when I can't get bio for a tank or 2. It smells better too.

<edit> I average 18mpg on B99, closer to 20mpg on dino. A gas F350 would get about 12mpg or less.

 

[woodsguy]

OK enough diesel talk on an ELECTRIC car thread.

 

[IH8Rice]

OK enough diesel talk on an ELECTRIC car thread.

electrics are stupid. its already been said.
diesel/electric hybrids arent that stupid though

 

[C.P.]

I have always wanted to do something like this: Net-Meter an electric car by over-sizing a photovoltaic system on the house to accomodate the KWH needs of the elec car, I've even ran the numbers & designed a system, and for me it would be attractive, since I have the ability to design the photovoltaic system and install all of it myself, AND get the panels at wholesale through my place of work, saving me big on that portion of the project...it would only make sense economically with this approach however. If you take a close look, this kind of setup would be surprisingly better then you think, since other then batteries, electric cars dont have a large thirst for lots of maintenance...only if you can tolerate the range of an electric car...but for our situation (and many other families with more then one car) this makes great sense:
1 car (the elec) for commuting 5 days a week and short trips on weekend, and in the case of our family, a soon to be purchased work-horse (diesel maybe) pickup truck for towing the boat, long vacation trips, moving big stuff etc...

There are many who have already started this trend...just take a look at the few families on this site who charge their rav4 elec's with photovoltaics:

 

[syadasti]

electrics are stupid. its already been said.
diesel/electric hybrids arent that stupid though

Oh yeah? The father of the modern VW TDI says you are both stupid - read about his latest OPOC from ecomotors:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/inside-ecomotors-revolutionary-high-efficiency-engine/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/inside-ecomotors-part-two-an-interview-with-don-runkle/

 

[IH8Rice]

Oh yeah? The father of the modern VW TDI says you are both stupid - read about his latest OPOC from ecomotors:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/inside-ecomotors-revolutionary-high-efficiency-engine/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/inside-ecomotors-part-two-an-interview-with-don-runkle/

that article said what?
they built a super efficient diesel, right?

The engine is surprisingly compact, though it looks a bit wide. Hurden says that width is deceptive. The M100 engine on the stand is a 300HP direct injected two-stroke diesel engine. It has a displacement of 2.5 liters, cylinder bores of 100mm (with very short strokes), and has dimensions of (LxWxH): 22.8 x 41.3 x 18.5 – note the short length and low height. With aluminum construction, it weighs only 300 lbs. Compare that to the 300HP engines from Cummins and Navistar that respectively weigh 1,100 and 900 lbs. and have dimensions that dwarf the OPOC. Runkle says that production OPOC engines will easily weigh less than half what similarly powered diesel and gasoline engines weigh. Though the current prototypes run on diesel fuel, the OPOC engine can run on a variety of fuels including gases and alcohols as well as gasoline.

 

[syadasti]

that article said what?
they built a super efficient diesel, right?

As your quote notes at the end their prototype does but its not a diesel specific technology.