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The garage frame building journey

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
20,496
19,497
Canaderp
You now must have a fleet of these.

When is your DH team starting? Someone has to give Neko a little competition. :busted:
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
You now must have a fleet of these.

When is your DH team starting? Someone has to give Neko a little competition. :busted:
I do and the quiver is sweet!

Walker Racing only has 3 DH riders in the Masters’ category for now. My wife, younger brother and I are on the team and we each NEED a 150, 170 and 200mm version. So if we each get one then I need to make nine in total, haha…. In reality, I’m enjoying the process and liking the learning how to weld and stuff. Also, the first few attempts should be retired soon. The welds are questionable at best.

#1 is the most questionable.
269E15BA-299D-4482-8917-2F04BEA93575.jpeg
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
Very cool!

What wall thickness do you use for those? Did you inflate them with air or water?

I made a bar yesterday. I haven’t figured out how to repeatably clock more backsweep just yet.

B6A50915-592C-4BCA-B3C7-A28D4218784D.jpeg


E543B484-1335-4DB4-8996-189CAFA5428E.jpeg


53780AE3-1187-4381-B288-C1C034AABCCB.jpeg
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,745
5,638
I do and the quiver is sweet!

Walker Racing only has 3 DH riders in the Masters’ category for now. My wife, younger brother and I are on the team and we each NEED a 150, 170 and 200mm version. So if we each get one then I need to make nine in total, haha…. In reality, I’m enjoying the process and liking the learning how to weld and stuff. Also, the first few attempts should be retired soon. The welds are questionable at best.

#1 is the most questionable.
View attachment 190751
Why no short travel slack bikes? Your frames are better designs than my Tor but it's still a lot of fun with a 64deg HA and 110mm of travel. Rode all Summer break and got no ankle or shoulder pain and having rear suspension wasn't as terrible as I thought it would be*.
*Rode it locked out for pretty much two months because I hated giving in so much, old age sucks.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
Why no short travel slack bikes? Your frames are better designs than my Tor but it's still a lot of fun with a 64deg HA and 110mm of travel. Rode all Summer break and got no ankle or shoulder pain and having rear suspension wasn't as terrible as I thought it would be*.
*Rode it locked out for pretty much two months because I hated giving in so much, old age sucks.
Haha, my back is way too moldy for hardtails.

That will come sooner or later. I have a 36 fork and a 185x50 Ohlins shock that I want to build a frame around. Currently, I could get my short travel one down to around 120 or 130 with a shock extender and a 185x45 shock with a travel reducing spacer.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,581
1,076
La Verne

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
Buckow how's the e bike going?
Pretty good.
It’s great for going up trails that are way too steep to ride. That’s where it shines. It’s a bit heavy and cumbersome on the downs though. Different sport pretty much. It has too much torque/power for an Mtb chain and cassette so you have to be gentle on the throttle. In the middle of the summer it is awesome on ridgelines where the trail is too deep and technical to pedal. However, I think a normal ebike or a Sur Ron is probably a better overall concept. This one is in the middle of those two ideas.

AE069618-B0FC-4EAB-B7ED-8EEF0F83DE75.jpeg


Yesterday, I was just tinkering around on a seattube collar and by the end of the day I had a whole frame tacked up. I’ve never done that much at one go. Things are getting easier/faster.

It’s 2.5cm longer than everything I’ve made up until now. I made the seat tube angle a little steeper too. I’m going to pair it with a 460mm CS.
 
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englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,581
1,076
La Verne
Pretty good.
It’s great for going up trails that are way too steep to ride. That’s where it shines. It’s a bit heavy and cumbersome on the downs though. Different sport pretty much. It has too much torque/power for an Mtb chain and cassette so you have to be gentle on the throttle. In the middle of the summer it is awesome on ridgelines where the trail is too deep and technical to pedal. However, I think a normal ebike or a Sur Ron is probably a better overall concept. This one is in the middle of those two ideas.

View attachment 191508

Yesterday, I was just tinkering around on a seattube collar and by the end of the day I had a whole frame tacked up. I’ve never done that much at one go. Things are getting easier/faster.

It’s 2.5cm longer than everything I’ve made up until now. I made the seat tube angle a little steeper too. I’m going to pair it with a 460mm CS.
So you achieverd your goal of finding the limits of Mtb drivetrain components
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
So you achieverd your goal of finding the limits of Mtb drivetrain components
Yes but I knew that already. I’ve had a bike with these motors since 2016. The guy making the motors is an old fried and I’ve had earlier versions on Scott Voltage and Gambler but with the battery in a backpack. This one is the first time I’ve tried the battery on the frame.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,581
1,076
La Verne
I started to day dream about what an ideal e bike would look like, for doing things that aren't great on bike or motorcycle.

As far as a normal bike with avaliable parts, fox 40 or boxxer, Saint drivetrain, 160mm cranks.

But for a custom build I started to wonder about a gearbox......
Maybe "idler" high drive
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
I started to day dream about what an ideal e bike would look like, for doing things that aren't great on bike or motorcycle.

As far as a normal bike with avaliable parts, fox 40 or boxxer, Saint drivetrain, 160mm cranks.

But for a custom build I started to wonder about a gearbox......
Maybe "idler" high drive
Yeah, that’s pretty much what I’m doing here. Just exploring what it might be and checking out where it is fun.

That would be cool. I have an old Zerode and Lahar frame that I would like to modernize the front triangle but I doubt I would motorize them.

The Pinion with belt like on the new Zerode DH bike could be the way to go but the torque specs on the Pinion are pretty low. Cargo bike hubs look to be the only gearbox type thing that can handle the load. 3750 watts is a lot to handle. Last I looked I to it Enviolo had something but how to package it?
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
Longboi is almost done. Just need a lower shockmount and cable guides. I think I went too far with the reach but oh well. I somehow got reach curious again in the quest for a balanced and grippy ride. It’s around a 490mm reach with a 445/460mm cs.

FD55513D-006B-4EC8-8F30-34DEE189C99D.jpeg
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,745
5,638
I know zip about frame building but I did read that gussets shouldn't be welded at the back as it can cause cracking.
Wonder why Reeb went with inset gussets, wouldn't these be more likely to deform a tube under load compared to one welded to the outside of the tubes?
1682769039629.png
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
I know zip about frame building but I did read that gussets shouldn't be welded at the back as it can cause cracking.
Wonder why Reeb went with inset gussets, wouldn't these be more likely to deform a tube under load compared to one welded to the outside of the tubes?
View attachment 193157
Yes, that’s what I understand too but there’s a lot more to it. I ask a lot of frame builders and bike engineers and there are a lot of different opinions. BTR’s tube gussets are fully welded and break the rule.

Gussets are a bit of black magic and can cause cracks. Even though they are a little inset I still think it is enough to be considered on the side plane and he probably did it for a reason. He is an incredible fabricator, engineer and welder. He also doesn’t weld over the headtube welds with his gusset design. He’s been doing his gussets like that for a while now and so I think he would see a problem if there was one. I should try one like his. That would be a lot easier than welding a second bead under the down tube.

Are you considering replacing the Tor with a Reeb SST?

Check out Adam Prosise’s machining operation. He makes some very cool shit for other builders.


I was looking for an easy project in the shed so I made myself a dead blow hammer yesterday. I’m pretty happy with the result. Made from cromoly scraps and cheap replacement hammer heads with a 8mm threads. I’d like to find a hunk of brass to turn the heads myself.

DED4A335-2523-4D27-BFC3-717A44848FAC.jpeg
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,745
5,638
Yes, that’s what I understand too but there’s a lot more to it. I ask a lot of frame builders and bike engineers and there are a lot of different opinions. BTR’s tube gussets are fully welded and break the rule.

Gussets are a bit of black magic and can cause cracks. Even though they are a little inset I still think it is enough to be considered on the side plane and he probably did it for a reason. He is an incredible fabricator, engineer and welder. He also doesn’t weld over the headtube welds with his gusset design. He’s been doing his gussets like that for a while now and so I think he would see a problem if there was one. I should try one like his. That would be a lot easier than welding a second bead under the down tube.

Are you considering replacing the Tor with a Reeb SST?

Check out Adam Prosise’s machining operation. He makes some very cool shit for other builders.


I was looking for an easy project in the shed so I made myself a dead blow hammer yesterday. I’m pretty happy with the result. Made from cromoly scraps and cheap replacement hammer heads with a 8mm threads. I’d like to find a hunk of brass to turn the heads myself.

View attachment 193190
Okay sweet, I like the look of the inset gussets.

Nah not looking at replacing the Tor, can't afford to anyway.
Freight and import tax rules out pretty much anything from the US, if I bought a new frame it would probably be a Nicolai or maybe a destroked Pyga.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,786
4,729
Champery, Switzerland
Okay sweet, I like the look of the inset gussets.

Nah not looking at replacing the Tor, can't afford to anyway.
Freight and import tax rules out pretty much anything from the US, if I bought a new frame it would probably be a Nicolai or maybe a destroked Pyga.
Yes, the Tor is nice.
How about a Devlin for your list? He makes nice stuff. I like his tube linkage.
 

Avy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 24, 2006
1,139
383
Yes, that’s what I understand too but there’s a lot more to it. I ask a lot of frame builders and bike engineers and there are a lot of different opinions. BTR’s tube gussets are fully welded and break the rule.

Gussets are a bit of black magic and can cause cracks. Even though they are a little inset I still think it is enough to be considered on the side plane and he probably did it for a reason. He is an incredible fabricator, engineer and welder. He also doesn’t weld over the headtube welds with his gusset design. He’s been doing his gussets like that for a while now and so I think he would see a problem if there was one. I should try one like his. That would be a lot easier than welding a second bead under the down tube.

Are you considering replacing the Tor with a Reeb SST?

Check out Adam Prosise’s machining operation. He makes some very cool shit for other builders.


I was looking for an easy project in the shed so I made myself a dead blow hammer yesterday. I’m pretty happy with the result. Made from cromoly scraps and cheap replacement hammer heads with a 8mm threads. I’d like to find a hunk of brass to turn the heads myself.

View attachment 193190
That is Fucking Cool Brother. Can you make me one for my work? Name the price. You need to sell those for quick cash as you Hone you’re Craft on the Frames.

Avy
 

lobsterCT

Monkey
Jun 23, 2015
278
414
I finished up a set of front triangle side plates for my build.

IMG_9991.jpg


IMG_9994.jpg


Everything being welded is 6061. Bolt on parts are 7075. 7075 is roughly 2x as strong, and machines nicer than 6061, but is not conventionally weldable, so you can't use it for everything.

The bearings have O-ring seals on the bearing chambers to help bearing life. I used Soft durometer oil/grease resistant rubber o-rings for the static seals in milled slots, and a white Teflon based, semi-rigid o-ring for the dynamic seals also in milled slots.

IMG_9993.jpg


IMG_9992.jpg


I worked out a mathematical function for the leverage ratio, L.R. as a function of rear shock stroke, S.

L.R. = (.3011265986/S)(63.1011218-Cos^-1(((8.5-S)^2 - 131.490728)/(-130.9426821)))

Its kind of ugly in graphing calculator form.

To calculate the progression, compare the initial leverage ratio of about 2.51 to the ending leverage ratio of about 2.4.

[(2.51 - 2.4)/2.4](100) = 4.58%

*The leverage ratio function has a divide by zero error at S=0 so you can't evaluate exactly at the start, so use something close to zero like .001.

4.58% from the frame plus 26% progression from a progressive spring, yields an overall progression of 30.58%


100% manually machined, no CNC. So progress on the build is slow, but advancing!
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
500
357
Damn that's some elaborate bearing and seal details. I just slammed a double set of Enduro 6002's into the each side of the swingarm. Mind you I think this current set up I have is flexier that the 44mm upper headset cups I've used in the past.

Great looking work. I forget...did you post a full cad or linkage image of what you are working on?
 

lobsterCT

Monkey
Jun 23, 2015
278
414
Thanks Shirk007, I'm not sure how big 6002's are. That is a clever idea to use a double row of them. Also a good idea to use a headset bearing. I thought about that approach earlier in my build. I ended up using 6905's. Here is a pic of 6901, 6903, and 6905.

bearings.jpg


These 6905's are 2RS made in Japan, with solid permanent lubricant. I'm hoping that with them entombed in the chamber of grease behind the o-ring seals, and with their given size, and how long they have lasted on my GGDH build, that they will be good for the life of the frame. (If I don't melt it during heat treatment like those Dali paintings of clocks :eek:

I don't have a cad/linkage drawing of the frame. I'm working semi-oldschool with pencil and paper and graphing calculator. Its more like a partial wire diagram filled in with some dimensions. I'm trying to learn machining on this build, and next build will be a light weight version for my wife, where I will try to learn CAD drawing. I used to sort of know it, but only from 1 autocad class many years ago.

Anyway, I like the Shirk007 V2.0 build you did. That is a really cool design! For a point of comparison, do you know how progressive your design is?

Thanks Buckow, yes a rotary table, with my small mill, there was barely enough space to swing the part on the rotary table without hitting the column of the machine.
 
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shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
500
357
This was V2.0 The NPC144 (New Potato Caboose if you happen to be a Dead fan).


It was tooo progressive.



This much progression left plenty of un-used travel on most rides.

Correction on the bearings, I used 6903's. On V3.0 I used a 6805 and hardware from a Devinci Wilson DH bike, the bearing was pressed into the swingarm.
 

lobsterCT

Monkey
Jun 23, 2015
278
414
I'm not sure if your build is the blue curve or the green curve.

I'm showing roughly 48.9% progression for the green curve and roughly 67.8% progression for the blue curve.

That does seem like too much except for Dark Fest type riding or dropping to flat urban riding.

Cool you are refining it for your riding!
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
500
357
Sorry...blue line is that frame. In Linkage the dark blue line is always the active file, the other ones are the ones you are comparing it too.