[buckoW]

You are killing it, great job

Thanks Siko! I am enjoying this.
A bike engineer friend came over yesterday to talk shop. We used to work together at Scott and he writes these articles for Pinkbike now as well as bike engineering consulting.

He took some side on pics to analyze my bikes in Creo to tell me what the curves look like. We have designed a few bikes together in the past so I’m real happy he proposed to do that. I made the bikes more progressive with a lower starting leverage ratio and a higher bb for mullet reasons. Pretty excited to see what my bikes’ curves will look like.

I also asked him if he would give me the pivot point locations if I were to make a high pivot idler pulley design with the Gambler rear end. I explained roughly where I want to put things and he will come back with a design. If I shift it up and rotate it backwards I think it could work…..

Gusset ponderings…I think I like it but I want to get a seatpost reamer before I do that much welding on the seat tube. That DT is on backwards too so she needs a gusset on the dt/tt junction.

I’m really happy with him this one is turning out! It is so much nicer looking and the welds are much better than the other frame.

The piggyback on the shock touches the downtube at around 195mm of travel. I was thinking I would like to have 160-180mm on this one anyways so I took the risk and it works! Squint Eye Engineering FTW.

Oh and another technique that makes filing miters faster for me is a die grinder mounted in a tubing block in a vise. Then I can hold the workpiece with 2 hands and skim off a tiny bit quickly.

 

[dump]

Nice! I am very surprised you know what those are! I thought they were a Euro only thing.

I guess you don't know me very well!

In my experience, they are a euro thing. I know them from time in the mountains of switzerland. Never driven one, but an impressively capable piece of machinery, purpose built for its environment. Also come across a Kaiser as well.

Very cool about the dh track. Once again, an amazing, versatile digger.

 

[buckoW]

I’m almost done with this one and she looks so nice that I had to make her some ti bolt-alu washer jewelry. The other side is a stainless steel threaded half sphere that I will tig tack in place. I kinda like the sphere hardware look.

I guess you don't know me very well!

In my experience, they are a euro thing. I know them from time in the mountains of switzerland. Never driven one, but an impressively capable piece of machinery, purpose built for its environment. Also come across a Kaiser as well.

Very cool about the dh track. Once again, an amazing, versatile digger.

And you know about Kaisers too!
Me hanging from an old Kaiser when we built the access trail to the start of the WC DH track in Champery. This wasn’t even the steepest part.

Every trail I built around here was with an Araignée. I like to work with those when it’s steep and I have never built in a flat spot.

This was at the end of a day building and on a soft takeoff. I used to get so stoked on hitting freshly built gaps with my work boots and no pads.

@dump True, I don’t know you very well but you are welcome to come for a rip next summer and we change that. Many monkies have come to ride here with me here in the past. You come to Switzerland often?

How about Euro Mac?

 

[sikocycles]

Not to be out done by @buckoW
Chain stays getting fit up. Got the BB drop right and holes drilled in BB

 

[FlipSide]

JP Trep (Excavation Trep) has an araignée too, in Canada. I think he is with VeloSolution Canada now.

His has been used a lot at MSA, notably on the WC track. It was pretty cool to see it in operation from the gondola while preparing the Steve Smith Drop. Very impressive machine.

 

[buckoW]

Not to be out done by @buckoW
Chain stays getting fit up. Got the BB drop right and holes drilled in BB

Haha, I think you got me there on your jig! Sofa king rad what you made there! I think I am making sculptures and I don’t want to know if they are straight as long as they ride sweet!

Your welding looks so much better than mine. I am making progress using the 44 bikes lay wire technique though. Thanks again for that one!

Anyways, you have a few months while I am under 3 feet of snow… and making snowboards. I’m almost done with the middle one. American Walnut veneer top sheet with ptet tip and tail spacers and Beech sidewalls. She just needs a base grind, wax and the inserts drilled out.

 

[dump]

I’m almost done with this one and she looks so nice that I had to make her some ti bolt-alu washer jewelry. The other side is a stainless steel threaded half sphere that I will tig tack in place. I kinda like the sphere hardware look.

View attachment 168267



And you know about Kaisers too!
Me hanging from an old Kaiser when we built the access trail to the start of the WC DH track in Champery. This wasn’t even the steepest part.

View attachment 168266

Every trail I built around here was with an Araignée. I like to work with those when it’s steep and I have never built in a flat spot.

This was at the end of a day building and on a soft takeoff. I used to get so stoked on hitting freshly built gaps with my work boots and no pads.
View attachment 168268

@dump True, I don’t know you very well but you are welcome to come for a rip next summer and we change that. Many monkies have come to ride here with me here in the past. You come to Switzerland often?

How about Euro Mac?

Wow, I do recall seeing that jump pic years ago. Great that you build with those. They seem like the go-to machine for building in the mountains.

Would love to get back to switzerland. It’s been a while. Have friends with a family home in the mountains near Chur. The travel situation is still a big question mark so this summer is unlikely, but when we do, will definitely have to link up.

 

[buckoW]

Wow, I do recall seeing that jump pic years ago. Great that you build with those. They seem like the go-to machine for building in the mountains.

Would love to get back to switzerland. It’s been a while. Have friends with a family home in the mountains near Chur. The travel situation is still a big question mark so this summer is unlikely, but when we do, will definitely have to link up.

Sounds good, hit me up!

 

[sikocycles]

Did a knife building class Saturday. What a great time. If anyone has a chance to do one. Do it.

 

[sikocycles]

Tacked chain stays. Can’t be out done by @buckoW so here are some pictures.
wheel test fit is good. Room for 50s.

 

[buckoW]

@sikocycles Did you get to use a sweet 2”x72” belt grinder and forge? I would like to try and make some knives

Tacked chain stays. Can’t be out done by @buckoW so here are some pictures.
wheel test fit is good. Room for 50s.

I think your welding is outdoing me just fine! I want to practice some more before I touch my frame again. It could look real nice if I can avoid my usual problems in the tight spots. I must have some shielding gas issues or torch angle something going on. I’ll figure it out…

Are you going to tig the bottle bosses?

 

[sikocycles]

Yes I did. Was therapeutic. I did order a kit to make one. Would be good for all kinds of things.

https://housemade.us/products/ultimate-bundle?variant=40089759383706

Thanks. I practiced a lot of welding before starting.
I will silicon bronze tig the bottlebosses on.

 

[buckoW]

Yes I did. Was therapeutic. I did order a kit to make one. Would be good for all kinds of things.

Thanks. I practiced a lot of welding before starting.
I will silicon bronze tig the bottlebosses on.

Oh sweet! Those Pheer Grinders look super nice. That kit looks good too!
https://www.tr-maker.com/collections/all. Makes some pretty good accessories like different wheels and small diameter wheels for tricky miters and stuff.

What motor are you going to run? A VFD with a big 3 phase motor makes these eat through metal super fast with the 3m Cubitron belts.

I use one a bunch for all sorts of stuff and the 36 grit 3M Cubitron belts are pretty bad ass! Mine needs some stiffening mods because she vibrates a bit. It is in the background of this pic. I didn’t find a better photo.

I want to order some of that tig brazing rod!

 

[sikocycles]

Nice setup.
I will run a 3 phase 2HP motor with a VFD.

 

[buckoW]

Nice setup.
I will run a 3 phase 2HP motor with a VFD.

Consider a 3hp if you plan on running her slow for whatever reason. Then you still have some torque down low.

 

[Adventurous]

Curious to know how much you guys have invested in each frame? Obviously the tooling costs are significant, but I'm intrigued to know what the break down is beyond that.

Did a knife building class Saturday. What a great time. If anyone has a chance to do one. Do it.

Always wanted to, but I've never done so. I think Bark River in Michigan has a build your own class that they do. Either that or maybe it's LT Wright.

 

[sikocycles]

I am afraid to add it up but will. I know I could of bought a custom Ti frame at this point but that is not the point.
After almost kicking the bucket in 8/2020 it was on my bucket list along with the knife making. I have always wanted to build my own frame and will continue to do so as a hobby along with knifes.

 

[buckoW]

Curious to know how much you guys have invested in each frame? Obviously the tooling costs are significant, but I'm intrigued to know what the break down is beyond that.

A front triangle is around $60 to $100 in materials in my case. I already had the rear end from my DH bike. I do it for fun and don’t need another bike. I also like tools and enjoy making stuff.

You could do it all with hand files and a disc grinder if you wanted to keep costs to a minimum. The frame jig is the tricky part to make inexpensively.
I already had a lathe, mill and drill press so I could make a lot of the parts I needed out of scrap I had laying around. I would like to make a nicer jig like Siko’s.

Are you considering giving it a go?

 

[sikocycles]

My jig cost me around $500 bucks with the 8020 and other hardware which is a bargain.

 

[buckoW]

That’s awesome!

I got a reamer for the seat tube and put a gusset on there. I think I might complete the weld all the way around the gusset. I left it open for reasons that probably aren’t as important on a seat tube as a downtube.

 

[sikocycles]

I am looking for seat tube reamers, who makes that one and what size?

 

[Adventurous]

A front triangle is around $60 to $100 in materials in my case. I already had the rear end from my DH bike. I do it for fun and don’t need another bike. I also like tools and enjoy making stuff.

You could do it all with hand files and a disc grinder if you wanted to keep costs to a minimum. The frame jig is the tricky part to make inexpensively.
I already had a lathe, mill and drill press so I could make a lot of the parts I needed out of scrap I had laying around. I would like to make a nicer jig like Siko’s.

Are you considering giving it a go?

I'd love to some day. Nothing fancy mind you, probably just a hardtail to start with. Currently have little of the equipment or expertise, so its probably a pipe dream, but hey, doesn't hurt to have something to aspire to.

 

[buckoW]

I am looking for seat tube reamers, who makes that one and what size?

It is a 33mm hand reamer from Tracy Tools in the UK. I am using 35mm 4130 straight gauge tubing with a .7mm thick shim. Are you using the thicker upper seat tube insert?

33mm HAND REAMER

 

[sikocycles]

For the mountain bike yes. Gravel bike no.

 

[buckoW]

For the mountain bike yes. Gravel bike no.

Have you seen the Cyclus tools? Decent prices for reamers and bb face and chaser.

Cyclus Tools Reamer For Seat Tube

Reamer for the seat tube can only be used in combination with the reamer holder. Features: reamer for the seat tube available in assorted sizes Manufacturer Numbers: 26.8 mm: 720095 27.0 mm: 720096 27.2 mm: 720097 28.6 mm: 720098 30.0 mm: 720100 30.2

www.bike-components.de

Is it something I should look into? Works well? I want to do an integrated seat clamp but would like a bit more meat in the tube for welding. Or I weld the clamp on lower down and shape the top of the seat tube nicely after welding…

A bike engineer friend came over yesterday and he took some measurements to calculate my leverage ratio, antirise, antisquat, etc…. It will be interesting to see if the changes I made to the Gambler numbers will give the curves I thought I was trying to get. I think it will have maybe 20% more anti squat and antirise with a higher starting leverage ratio. How much more I dunno. It feels nice!

My HT/DT got a gusset and my welding might look questionable but I see huge progress! Haha.

 

[sikocycles]

I saw those. Not sure if they will ship to USA and the tool holder is out of stock everywhere I looked.
The benefits of the seat collar is thicker metal to weld and it’s the right seat tube size.

https://www.paragonmachineworks.com/seat-collars/steel.html

 

[buckoW]

Thanks @sikocycles I will order a few of those. I don’t have any more .7mm walled tubing for seatpost shims anyways, so I might as well do it right. I was avoiding that extra weld.

I need to bend the bottom of my seattube to get rid of a weld for a more refined design too. I’m looking forward to my next frame only because I am less clueless.

I'd love to some day. Nothing fancy mind you, probably just a hardtail to start with. Currently have little of the equipment or expertise, so its probably a pipe dream, but hey, doesn't hurt to have something to aspire to.

@Adventurous I had the same pipe dream about making snowboards and bikes 3 years ago. I say go for it and see what happens.

 

[lobsterCT]

I got a reamer for 31.6 seat tubes from Victornet.com (Victor machinery exchange). Its not regularly in stock, but as a special order, they took a 1.25" blank, and sent it out to a machine shop to precision grind it to 31.6mm. It was $190 plus shipping. I would have preferred a spiral flute, but they only had straight flute blanks in stock when I ordered. They could probably do similar for any size post. Try to get one that has a taper (not just a chamfer) at the end. Try to get spiral flute.

Ask to talk to Brian, tell him its for bike building, and Greg from SFA recommended him.

When reaming, never go backwards. You can only spin forwards, even when removing the reamer.

 

[buckoW]

I got a reamer for 31.6 seat tubes from Victornet.com (Victor machinery exchange). Its not regularly in stock, but as a special order, they took a 1.25" blank, and sent it out to a machine shop to precision grind it to 31.6mm. It was $190 plus shipping. I would have preferred a spiral flute, but they only had straight flute blanks in stock when I ordered. They could probably do similar for any size post. Try to get one that has a taper (not just a chamfer) at the end. Try to get spiral flute.

Ask to talk to Brian, tell him its for bike building, and Greg from SFA recommended him.

When reaming, never go backwards. You can only spin forwards, even when removing the reamer.

Thanks! Some good tips for me in there. I was backing mine out wondering if I was hurting the cutters…. I am wondering if I could mount mine in a lathe and grind in a taper? I feel like the taper would guide it better than the chamfer.

@lobsterCT Want to post up any building pics or jig pics?

 

[lobsterCT]

I don't have too much to show. You and Sikocycles are well ahead of me at this point. I've built 80% of a front triangle jig, that simplifies tube mortising by letting me just use a hand drill for it. Its really easy to handle curves, etc. that you guys have a harder time setting up for in a mill. (for example, the top tube/seat tube mortise in my GGDH front triangle).

Its also dual purpose, in that it can hold all the parts rigidly for tacking, and approximately 30% of welding. If you hold rigidly and weld in small runs, you can alternate spots, and balance the welding forces of contraction on the frame, and my hypothesis is, that the frame is more inclined to stay straight during the drop quench in the heat treating process. The trade off is that the weld beads don't look quite as nice as if you do long runs.

The jig has (3) 1/4" wall 2" boxtubes in the x hat direction for rigidity that way, Its got (5) 1/4" wall 2" L angles underneath that for rigidity in the y hat direction. Then some filler pieces of 2" box tube so the top 1/4" plate over the whole thing can't flex too much. Its heavy and strong.

I just drill a hole in the top plate, and tap threads in it, and can bolt down all my little holder pieces almost anywhere I please. I'm trying to design a suspension, and a full frame, and I'll wait till I have a working design to make the rest of the little holder pieces. I did my best for garage work, to make the steel parts semi-precise, so when I gave them the blackened finish, I didn't want to distort them with heat and an oil quench. I got a mild acid solution from Mcmaster-Carr, and oxidized the surface layer with that, then let the pieces soak overnight in a bath of new engine oil.

I did a test of concept, to make the GGDH front, and made a simpler jig out of 1/8" wall rectangular tube. I liked how it worked, so I put the time into this heavier and stronger version. I'm currently moving at a glacial pace advancing the design of the frame. I wish that part was done, so I could focus on learning metal working skills.

 

[buckoW]

Wow! Nice jig and mitering setup. That’s cool you can miter in place. The table jig idea looks pretty useful for other projects too.

I would like one of those Siegmund welding tables with all the holes and clamps. That would be a real nice start to a jig like yours.

 

[lobsterCT]

Thanks! I like the terracing you are doing and the dedicated shop build. I looked up that welding table, expensive, but would be a really good start.

 

[buckoW]

Thanks! I’m looking forward to that.

PVD posted some designs for a welding table setup, in case you need more ideas for yours.

or water jet some plate?

 

[lobsterCT]

That looks like beautiful stuff. Even though it is oriented in a flat plane instead of a vertical plane like the cobra jig, I would still categorize it as "traditional" in the sense that it holds the front triangle by the head tube, the BB shell, and the seat tube. Unless the system has other fixtures, that precludes it from mitering the tubes in place. To miter the top tube and down tube in place, the jig has to hold the top tube and down tube.

I started with this tube notching tool. Its meant just to sit in a 6" bench vice. It works pretty well stock with straight tubes.

I removed the clamping half of the tool

and used some precision ground flat stock to make a mounting base.

then drilled the rotary bearing housing to mount to an L- angle for mounting to the table

If I were starting over, I think I would skip buying this tool, and instead, make a simple structure to mount the cutter vertically for the BB cut, and buy a higher end bearing housing and shaft from Mcmaster Carr.

Trying to keep it simple and inexpensive, here is my method to hold the head tube for welding, after all the notching has been done.

 

[lobsterCT]

There is a second C clamp (not drawn), at the other end of the head tube.

 

[buckoW]

Ah ok! I love seeing how you are doing this.

His seat tube design holds the middle of the seat tube as well as the cone on the top to allow for the bends at the bottom that are now common. I was thinking you just need some tube blocks on the dt and tt in addition to his design to miter the headtube in place. Anyways, I like seeing how others are doing it. Lots of different ways to do it.

 

[lobsterCT]

I see what you are saying. I agree, it would be pretty easy to add fixtures to that system to hold TT and DT, and agree it would be a great set up. The base plate on that looks like 3/4" steel! I got the idea for mine from a picture on the ridegg website a while back, before they had revved carbon, and i think, before they had the big CNC machines.

the picture was from a point of view looking down on a table with a printed side view cad drawing of a frame. It had 4 or 5 of the rotary/linear bearing housings with shafts and hole saws similar to what I am using, arranged artistically around the drawing, and one of them was positioned where it would be set to cut the TT and the DT for the HT. I thought that looked like a relatively simple and efficient way to do the notching.

 

[buckoW]

Cool!

I got some 4130 and a new bandsaw for framebuilding. I will make a small table and stand to mount the saw vertically. I have an underpowered one already and I like it but it stalls a lot. Hopefully this Milwaukee can hog through some steel!

What welder are you using? I‘ve never tried welding aluminum but my new Stahlwerk has AC and I bring home a lot of alu bits and pieces from work…. I am already in over my head but I would like to someday give it a go.

Similar to this but stiffer and supported better by the handles.

I think I have a tool fetish maybe but only maybe.

 

[lobsterCT]

That is a nice saw! I can see how that would be really useful with the table for pieces like the shock mount on your frames, or just steel cutting in general.

I'm not sure what I am going to do about welding long term. My GGDH front was welded up by a family member that was kind enough to let me direct him with the weld balancing. I put the frame in the bed of my truck and took the whole thing on the ferry to long island, and it was welded there. If memory serves, it was a miller 3500.

Its down the road a ways for me, but I would like to take classes to learn the process. It is too expensive to get the high amperage electrical hook up I would need, and all the welding equipment to have at home, so likely, even if I master the process sufficiently to do a frame, I would take the work to long island and make use of family equipment there. I tried my hand at tigging aluminum with scrap pieces, and could do it very poorly on bigger pieces of comparable size. If I tried light tubing, or 1 light tube to a metal plate, I was blowing through the thin material left and right. Oh well. I look at learning bike building as a long term process!

 

[buckoW]

Yeah, I’m stoked on it. I’ve had my eye on that one for a couple years. It was half price so I couldn’t resist. A vertical bandsaw and a 2x72” grinder is pretty cool for making metal stuff.

Ah ok! Haha, I was thinking all this time you welded your frame at home! You kinda inspired me to to think I could maybe do it too. I think I will stick with steel for now since I haven’t figured out how to make nice welds, yet. That’s funny.

Yeah, I’m looking at it like a long term hobby too. It went really fast this fall though. I decided to just attempt it. We have been slowly renovating our house for the last 12 or something years and I had to put in all new electrical anyways. So with a close friend who is an electrician we put in 380v 3 phase all over the place. It was expensive but I’m pretty good with quickly forgetting those things.

Are ways around not having 3 phase. A Variable Frequency Drive or a Phase Converter could do it? Maybe that is an economical solution? I don’t know the specifics but maybe it’s worth exploring.

Why not just do steel? I was originally going to try some carbon framebuilding but I’m putting that on the long term plan for now and I’ll learn about steel and tig welding for now. I’m enjoying it.