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the gearbox thread

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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How come nobody has done a pair of linked trigger shifters? Certainly there must be enough engineers to design something that has a "reverse" mechanism so when you pull with one, the other releases...right? Then you'd have up on one side, and down on the other...IMO that would be the perfect setup, instead of up and down on one side.
too complicated, too heavy, too stupid of an idea.
 

bikemonkey

Chimp
Feb 1, 2008
68
0
Santiago, Chile
How come nobody has done a pair of linked trigger shifters? Certainly there must be enough engineers to design something that has a "reverse" mechanism so when you pull with one, the other releases...right? Then you'd have up on one side, and down on the other...IMO that would be the perfect setup, instead of up and down on one side.
too complicated, too heavy, too stupid of an idea.
it is not that stupid. It is actually pretty sweet, you downshift with the left thumb and up shift with the right. and as I use it with a geared hub, I can shift while breaking, coasting or when standing still. and the extra weight is minimal, not to say unnoticeable.





 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
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May 23, 2002
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too complicated, too heavy, too stupid of an idea.
seriously? gripshift is a good idea?

you could position your paddles exactly as you like them (ie triggers for shimanerds, and thumbs for srampthings) then you always know where to reach for what you want. I'm fairly certain you could drop enough weight to make it only slightly heavier than a twin paddle, twin mechanism shifter, and if you can notice an extra 50g on your bike, then die. We're also talking about gearboxes here...you're really going to complain about twin shifters on a planetary drive CVT equipped infinite ratio german made OEM only patented in 40 countries 17lb gearbox?
 

jonKranked

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seriously? gripshift is a good idea?

you could position your paddles exactly as you like them (ie triggers for shimanerds, and thumbs for srampthings) then you always know where to reach for what you want. I'm fairly certain you could drop enough weight to make it only slightly heavier than a twin paddle, twin mechanism shifter, and if you can notice an extra 50g on your bike, then die. We're also talking about gearboxes here...you're really going to complain about twin shifters on a planetary drive CVT equipped infinite ratio german made OEM only patented in 40 countries 17lb gearbox?

why use a single shifter when you can use two for twice the cost & weight, right?

and i don't get the hate on gripshift. I ran it for years. never had any major issues with it. and the new stuff is supposed to be awesome. its one of those parts that gets hated on more than it truly deserves.


edit: emphasis added to the awesome armchair engineering speculation.


edit 2: you read much too into my statement. i didn't say gripshift was the ultimate solution, only that a dual shifter configuration would be too much of a PITA.
 
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jonKranked

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it is not that stupid. It is actually pretty sweet, you downshift with the left thumb and up shift with the right. and as I use it with a geared hub, I can shift while breaking, coasting or when standing still. and the extra weight is minimal, not to say unnoticeable.
that's because of the gearbox configuration itself, not the shifter.

so when you move one shifter wouldn't the other one have to move as well to compensate for slack in the cable? couldn't this only be accomplished by using friction shifters?
 

xy9ine

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Mar 22, 2004
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and i don't get the hate on gripshift. I ran it for years. never had any major issues with it. and the new stuff is supposed to be awesome. its one of those parts that gets hated on more than it truly deserves.
i concur. i used to hate grip shifters until i actually owned one (a rohloff in my case). works great.
 

Sandwich

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May 23, 2002
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why use a single shifter when you can use two for twice the cost & weight, right?
and i don't get the hate on gripshift. I ran it for years. never had any major issues with it. and the new stuff is supposed to be awesome. its one of those parts that gets hated on more than it truly deserves.
edit: emphasis added to the awesome armchair engineering speculation.
edit 2: you read much too into my statement. i didn't say gripshift was the ultimate solution, only that a dual shifter configuration would be too much of a PITA.
dude, you're always a pretty big dick, but lately you've been a huge dick. what's up?

I'm sorry you don't like my espec, but shifters are not heavy. If you take out half the componentry and one paddle, then add a small mechanical release switch, I just don't believe you're going to add a significant nor noticeable amount of weight to a gearbox equipped bike. If you're building the lightest session on the internet, then yeah, you're gonna have a hard time making up for those extra grams.

As for gripshift, I used to hate on it too, then I replaced it with a trigger shifter and I despise it now. Literally improved my riding and shifting by a very large margin. Some people dig on them, and that's fine, but I can't say I'd ever voluntarily go back.
 

jonKranked

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dude, you're always a pretty big dick, but lately you've been a huge dick. what's up?

I'm sorry you don't like my espec, but shifters are not heavy. If you take out half the componentry and one paddle, then add a small mechanical release switch, I just don't believe you're going to add a significant nor noticeable amount of weight to a gearbox equipped bike. If you're building the lightest session on the internet, then yeah, you're gonna have a hard time making up for those extra grams.

As for gripshift, I used to hate on it too, then I replaced it with a trigger shifter and I despise it now. Literally improved my riding and shifting by a very large margin. Some people dig on them, and that's fine, but I can't say I'd ever voluntarily go back.
the point is that it over-complicates it.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
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Lawwill suspension, nice, seems like over the last 10 years many have tried usings it in their bearbox designs. seems to work every time, never makes it to production...

Unless if there is anymore info on this thing? it looks somewhat appealing, the weight isn't terrible but it is a pretty light build so i dont think there is anymore room to shave it down. dual chained with a mid-mounted shimano similar to a zerode?
 
Sep 17, 2011
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It is similar to the Lawwill, the tollwut is a real parallelogram, thats why the chain lenght stays allway the same. In the middle is a ROHLOFF SPeedhub 500/14 ... which is the only realy lasting gearbox and able to ride in gravity bikes. It is on the market and I am looking forward to open a thread at the manufactoring pages to inform. But I don't see the button ti start a new thread there, yet. ;-)

The Zerode seems to be very interesting, too but I am sure it is not stiff like the Tollwut and I did't have the chance to compare the Zerode chassis on the track with the perfomance of the Stonedigga Evo3.
 

xy9ine

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Mar 22, 2004
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the lolwut has been around for a few years. think it first appeared in 2009. classic german gratuitous hardware & cnc hours going on there. needs some serious editing, otherwise might be an effective platform.

wow, 8 years later (since the beginning of this thread), and only one production gearbox bike on the market so far (zerode). i thought we'd be so much further by now. interesting.
 

Sandwich

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[rob warner] look at the chainstays!!!!!!!!!!1111one [/rob warner]

i love the lawill design, but those have got to be over 18" long....aaaaaaaand they're gonna grow in travel, too.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
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It looks long, tall, steep, and heavy.... also known as.... everything we despise today

It does have a few things going for it though
1. it has a gear box and that is cool
2. it is orange, don't see that color very often which is also cool
3. there is lots of machining, which takes time, and time is cool

so even though it probabaly rides like a unimog, its still cool, cause unimogs are F***ing awesome
 
Sep 17, 2011
29
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You will proberly not beleave but I was testing the FOES MONO 2:1 with Curnutt Fork and Rear Shock on a german DH Track. The Rear was working because it had so much travel but the I couldn't hit teh speed i reach with the tollwut chassis. Anyway I lost the chain at the FOES even with a chain guard.... The FOES Fork was not fast enough with total open response and compression and I emptied the pressure in the valve bevor riding. because the fork started to get hard.

The tollwut is mega stiff and rides like on rails on rough terrain an because of the chassis performance sticks to the ground. The FOES did't have that performence. I was a little shocked, because the FOES was a dreambike when I was young. :confused:
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
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ACT Australia
ROHLOFF SPeedhub 500/14 ... which is the only realy lasting gearbox and able to ride in gravity bikes.

The Zerode seems to be very interesting, too but I am sure it is not stiff like the Tollwut and I did't have the chance to compare the Zerode chassis on the track with the perfomance of the Stonedigga Evo3.
Woh woh woh. Alfines are doing fine in the Zerodes, and are 1/3rd the price of the Rohloff, and come with trigger shifters, something near everyone thinks is better(even though grip shift is brilliant with gearboxs, the market can't seem to mesh with it).
Stiffer than a Zerode, big call. Zerode has 1 solid swingarm without pivots. and it's seat and chain stays are further apart. Yet your "sure"? I'd ride a Zerode before making claims your Tolwutz is better in any way.
I can't really see why it'd be better in the rough than a Foes either(something I've not ridden), pivot height is near that of the Foes.
 
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Sep 17, 2011
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ok, that means you give or shimano gives warranty to the alfine in gravity bikes and even in rear wheel hubs? My knowledge is that Rohloff is the only one who does this.

The reason of more stiffness is the double diagonal bearings and the spots where the linkage can position the side forces (y-direction) / torque (around x-direction). A Lawwill similar princip has a maximum of chassis stiffness. Performence is allways choosing low friction bearings and reducing Wheel weight like Zerode and Tollwut.

I don't want to claim the Zerode Bike, I like the design really.

But a german engineer will never buy a bike, when he is not 100% sure about the quality of material, manufactoring and durability. That's what the german engineering stands for. They are not famous for emotions, but for form follows funktion, reliability and performence. There a so many bikes that function just "ok" and will not last very long by an 90-100 kg rider.

How is the abrasion with PIVOT CHASSIS, some have problems, that the rear shocks get harmed faster?
 
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norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
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ok, that means you give or shimano gives warranty to the alfine in gravity bikes and even in rear wheel hubs? My knowledge is that Rohloff is the only one who does this.

The reason of more stiffness is the double diagonal bearings and the spots where the linkage can position the side forces (y-direction) / torque (around x-direction). A Lawwill similar princip has a maximum of chassis stiffness. Performence is allways choosing low friction bearings and reducing Wheel weight like Zerode and Tollwut.

I don't want to claim the Zerode Bike, I like the design really.

But a german engineer will never buy a bike, when he is not 100% sure about the quality of material, manufactoring and durability. That's what the german engineering stands for. They are not famous for emotions, but for form follows funktion, reliability and performence. There a so many bikes that function just "ok" and will not last very long by an 90-100 kg rider.

How is the abrasion with PIVOT CHASSIS, some have problems, that the rear shocks get harmed faster?
Shimano may not but the hub is a part of the frame and therefore is covered by the frame warranty.

I thought German engineering stands for strange machining and a ton of gussets ;) Also the bike doesn't have to have "maximum stiffness". It has to have enough stiffness. That's the main problem I had with German engineering - overdoing stuff.


Your bike is nice but try not to bash every other bike on the market. It will only alienate potential customers. Especially since I though the bike was nice although a bit heavy given the light parts but claiming most of the bikes on the market are badly made and will not last long will rub me and probably a few other people the wrong way. Not to mention it being very untrue.
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,586
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ok, that means you give or shimano gives warranty to the alfine in gravity bikes and even in rear wheel hubs? My knowledge is that Rohloff is the only one who does this.

The reason of more stiffness is the double diagonal bearings and the spots where the linkage can position the side forces (y-direction) / torque (around x-direction). A Lawwill similar princip has a maximum of chassis stiffness. Performence is allways choosing low friction bearings and reducing Wheel weight like Zerode and Tollwut.

I don't want to claim the Zerode Bike, I like the design really.

But a german engineer will never buy a bike, when he is not 100% sure about the quality of material, manufactoring and durability. That's what the german engineering stands for. They are not famous for emotions, but for form follows funktion, reliability and performence. There a so many bikes that function just "ok" and will not last very long by an 90-100 kg rider.

How is the abrasion with PIVOT CHASSIS, some have problems, that the rear shocks get harmed faster?
The Alfine is covered by Zerode. They tested all boxes on the market and the Shimano was most reliable and way less costly than the others. Also they can be fixed on most continents if needed and not shipped out.

Your Foes was probably set-up wrong?
 
Sep 17, 2011
29
0
@ianjenn

I agree, and less costly is a point. That a Shimano is the most reliable Gearbox on market... I can not follow this one.
I am sure it works very good covered in the Zerode or in any frame else.

You understand, that someone who owns a Speedhub is not going to change, even if the Shimano works and is cheaper.

Sure, someone who is happy with his Alfine sees maybe no sense to update.

@norbar
I love the old Giant Glory DH, the Demo has been brilliant since ever, some Lapierre bikes work well (a friend got his 3d replacement frame) I love the perfomance and the design of these bikes. I am not bashing good bikes. But why do people hype bikes like the ironhorse if they even do not manage durable paint.
The works amaizing but where is the quality and the durability?

I could get the rear working of the FOES, but the fork is going to service now. It was just ok compaired to the price :think:
The linkage started to knock out.

The thing is, that people pay so much money because a bike looks nice and has a very nice VPP geometry.
The have just the chance to believe that they get real quality.

But the big manufactors try to save money, where you don't see it. You as a customer doesn't know where are the peaks of forces during a race. The Pro Rider have different setups and different bearings. If gussets break they get new frames.
There are so many bikes with so much passion, but the linkages are knocking out bearings or destroying the sealings of the rear shocks. Good bearings are so expensive and the cost between 20-40 € this is 25- 50 $ bugs a piece.
So in a few cases the bearings are more expensive than the whole welded frame.
Smaller manufactors have sometimes higher nobility of ideals and do not make any compromise. The think about performance and about reliability of thier product. These bikes have to last more years, because the clients are not going to by a new bike every year.

The stiffness of the Tollwut is not like cement but it is much stiffer than lots of the usuall bikes. From one speed I need stiffness and can not deal with a flexing rear on really rocky sections. I can not imagine to pay much money again for any other bike.

I am not the developer of that bike. I am just a client! I had a testbike in 2010 and since 2011 I ride my own one and didn't have to fix or screw anything during that time. Just once to fasten the bottom bracket again and to unscrew the fox40 after a very hard impact. I am really stoked in that quality because I see it on every day in the bike park.

In 2011 with the new Evo 3, I was the only guy in my friends group, who had not to repair or screw anything after shredding Morzine, for 1 week. During all my friends riding Demo, Giant, Lapierre, Nicolai, Big Hit, Mondraker gravity bikes were repairing and mounting nearly every evening. I was enjoying my beer and doing the barbeque. From that moment all my friends who have been sceptic became really quiet realizing the speed I had the day and the quality of the bike. The all do not like the design but the have started to get respect about that ultimate DH machine.

You understand, that this is impressiv.
 
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MrPlow

Monkey
Sep 9, 2004
630
0
Toowoomba Queensland
...

wow, 8 years later (since the beginning of this thread), and only one production gearbox bike on the market so far (zerode). i thought we'd be so much further by now. interesting.
Tramontane is getting closer :) Made some changes on the test mule and gave it a shake down on Saturday and Sunday. A few months and it should be on track.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,851
478
Warsaw :/
@norbar
I love the old Giant Glory DH, the Demo has been brilliant since ever, some Lapierre bikes work well (a friend got his 3d replacement frame) I love the perfomance and the design of these bikes. I am not bashing good bikes. But why do people hype bikes like the ironhorse if they even do not manage durable paint.
The works amaizing but where is the quality and the durability?


I could get the rear working of the FOES, but the fork is going to service now. It was just ok compaired to the price :think:
The linkage started to knock out.

The thing is, that people pay so much money because a bike looks nice and has a very nice VPP geometry.
The have just the chance to believe that they get real quality.

But the big manufactors try to save money, where you don't see it. You as a customer doesn't know where are the peaks of forces during a race. The Pro Rider have different setups and different bearings. If gussets break they get new frames.
There are so many bikes with so much passion, but the linkages are knocking out bearings or destroying the sealings of the rear shocks. Good bearings are so expensive and the cost between 20-40 € this is 25- 50 $ bugs a piece.
So in a few cases the bearings are more expensive than the whole welded frame.
Smaller manufactors have sometimes higher nobility of ideals and do not make any compromise. The think about performance and about reliability of thier product. These bikes have to last more years, because the clients are not going to by a new bike every year.

The stiffness of the Tollwut is not like cement but it is much stiffer than lots of the usuall bikes. From one speed I need stiffness and can not deal with a flexing rear on really rocky sections. I can not imagine to pay much money again for any other bike.

I am not the developer of that bike. I am just a client! I had a testbike in 2010 and since 2011 I ride my own one and didn't have to fix or screw anything during that time. Just once to fasten the bottom bracket again and to unscrew the fox40 after a very hard impact. I am really stoked in that quality because I see it on every day in the bike park.

In 2011 with the new Evo 3, I was the only guy in my friends group, who had not to repair or screw anything after shredding Morzine, for 1 week. During all my friends riding Demo, Giant, Lapierre, Nicolai, Big Hit, Mondraker gravity bikes were repairing and mounting nearly every evening. I was enjoying my beer and doing the barbeque. From that moment all my friends who have been sceptic became really quiet realizing the speed I had the day and the quality of the bike. The all do not like the design but the have started to get respect about that ultimate DH machine.

You understand, that this is impressiv.
Because riding characteristic is much more important than how the bike looks. That is why I have a problem with some of the smaller mfg frames in europe. They concentrate about enginering perfection and forget about the fact that bikes are meant to be ridden. That is a new thing isnt it?

I also think you have a very skewed idea of how bike companies work and the cheap bearings on all bikes is just a load of BS. Current models of Demo, Summum, Nicolai and Giant have no frame issues. The bearings are fine and the frames are stiff. Can you tell me what exactly on those frames went wrong? What model and year? Im really curious because Ive heard about no issues with them aside from the fact that the glory and summum dent a bit easy.

In the end I understand you feel a bit special about your bike but claiming no other frames on the market have good bearings and are stiff is just borderline stupid. My frame lasted 3 seasons with only 1 bearing change after riding in a flood, friends also have long lasting bikes.
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,550
492
Im over here now
The tollwut is mega stiff and rides like on rails on rough terrain an because of the chassis performance sticks to the ground. The FOES did't have that performence. I was a little shocked, because the FOES was a dreambike when I was young. :confused:
you must have been doing it wrong. my 2:1 was one of the best handling, stiffest bikes i have ever owned.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
2,269
537
Current models of Demo, Summum, Nicolai and Giant have no frame issues.
Not going to argue with you, but the Summum had some problems with the axles and hardware. So not perfect but pretty good nevertheless.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
I agree, and less costly is a point. That a Shimano is the most reliable Gearbox on market... I can not follow this one. You understand, that someone who owns a Speedhub is not going to change, even if the Shimano works and is cheaper. Sure, someone who is happy with his Alfine sees maybe no sense to update.
I don't think you've ever even used a Alfine, let alone the modded one in the zerode, you opinion is invalid and down right stupid. You're inability to be open to other components basically destroys your argument, as you have no experience dealing with components that you are slamming.

But why do people hype bikes like the ironhorse if they even do not manage durable paint. The works amaizing but where is the quality and the durability?.
If paint is a concern on your bike, your not riding hard enough.

The thing is, that people pay so much money because a bike looks nice and has a very nice VPP geometry.
The have just the chance to believe that they get real quality.
I will argue that some of the bikes i've ridden in the past have as good or better quaility building than this tollwut. More machine time does not directly mean higher quality

But the big manufactors try to save money, where you don't see it. You as a customer doesn't know where are the peaks of forces during a race. The Pro Rider have different setups and different bearings. If gussets break they get new frames..
If links or things break on my frames, i get a new one. and in 10 years of riding guess how many frames i've had warrentied?

There are so many bikes with so much passion, but the linkages are knocking out bearings or destroying the sealings of the rear shocks. Good bearings are so expensive and the cost between 20-40 € this is 25- 50 $ bugs a piece.
the price difference between a giant glory frame and your bike is astronomical, i could replace bearings for a life time and still not have paid as much in the end as the price of a tollwut

So in a few cases the bearings are more expensive than the whole welded frame. Smaller manufactors have sometimes higher nobility of ideals and do not make any compromise. The think about performance and about reliability of thier product. These bikes have to last more years, because the clients are not going to by a new bike every year.
Where is one case when bearings are more expensive then an entire frame? idiot

The stiffness of the Tollwut is not like cement but it is much stiffer than lots of the usuall bikes. From one speed I need stiffness and can not deal with a flexing rear on really rocky sections. I can not imagine to pay much money again for any other bike.
I'm glad you like your bike but good god man

since 2011 I ride my own one and didn't have to fix or screw anything during that time. Just once to fasten the bottom bracket again and to unscrew the fox40 after a very hard impact. I am really stoked in that quality because I see it on every day in the bike park.
I don't care if the bike is made out of some mystical material, if you dont have to fix or screw anything in a whole calendar year, you are not riding hard enough

In 2011 with the new Evo 3, I was the only guy in my friends group, who had not to repair or screw anything after shredding Morzine, for 1 week. During all my friends riding Demo, Giant, Lapierre, Nicolai, Big Hit, Mondraker gravity bikes were repairing and mounting nearly every evening. I was enjoying my beer and doing the barbeque. From that moment all my friends who have been sceptic became really quiet realizing the speed I had the day and the quality of the bike. The all do not like the design but the have started to get respect about that ultimate DH machine.
You had no component failures? I find this hard to believe. A frame doesn't magically make your wheelset, cranks, brakes, ect more durable as well. I call Bull **** on this one as well

You understand, that this is impressiv.
It sounds like a fairy tale to me
 

EVIL JN

Monkey
Jul 24, 2009
488
23
Especially not servicing a 40 during an entire season. I dont know exactly what is recommended for a 40 but should it not be serviced around every 10 hours of normal usage in normal conditions?
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,851
478
Warsaw :/
Not going to argue with you, but the Summum had some problems with the axles and hardware. So not perfect but pretty good nevertheless.
May have missed that since I only own one bike and I only get short rides and reviews from friends but still my argument stands. Most of the current frames are pretty trouble free.



@Tetreault I think with the right build you can have no component failures for a season but that also depends on where you ride. Though year is not enough and if you wont service your bike you WILL have failures.
In my first year outside of 3 broken spokes which I was stupid enough not to tighten them I had no issues. Still his argument is silly.
 
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Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
@Tetreault I think with the right build you can have no component failures for a season but that also depends on where you ride. Though year is not enough and if you wont service your bike you WILL have failures.
In my first year outside of 3 broken spokes which I was stupid enough not to tighten them I had no issues. Still his argument is silly.
to say you dont need to put your bike in a stand for an entire week of shredding is insane. Didn't hook a brake hose on a tree? no flatting? changing brake pads? didn't hook a pedal on a nice rock? A frame is a frame, so unless these guys riding demos and glorys are the most unlucky people on the planet, needing to replace bearings after every day of riding :rofl:, i would give the previous comments to be some of the most ridiculous ever claimed.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,851
478
Warsaw :/
Changing brake pads isnt actually a component failure. As for flatting and hose problems. I use tubeless and use goodridge hoses which minimize both problems. My pedals loose pins from time to time but also dont break and they are very beaten (last gen twenty6 prerunners, not the first gen with problems). So unless you think of minor changes like fork/shock oil, worn tires, brake pads and lost pins no you dont have to change your gear every week of riding. I may probably ride less than you (depending on the number of injuries my dh bike gets 5-8 weeks of riding days though 8 weeks is a very good year) but a well thought and maintained bike can last with few problems.

Well unless you are unlucky and you catch the broken derail curse which happened to me a month ago in Maribor which left me riding chainless for 3 days but that is just bad luck and happens rarely.
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,514
27
ACT Australia
I have to do a hell of a lot less maintenance with the Zerode than other bikes. It's in the stand more cause I'm a tweaker.
Rearward axle path and 9.25" travel means rear spokes and rim don't cop a beating, and no mech, or complex exposed drivetrain means just lube.
Now if I could just stop f#@*ing with the damn thing.
I'm guessing old mate might have meant bearings cost more than say manufacturing costs for say a Glory. Lots of frames are still made pretty crap. Frames should last a lot longer IMO. Hopefully carbon will remedy this, but with this whole weight weeny toss off going on, it probably won't, might even get worse.
All said and done, I'd like to have a go on the Tullwitz, and hope they survive to make another model.