[Secret Squirrel]

Heh heh heh....

 

[FCLinder]

I have to say this is the first non single pivot design I have seen. This one has my vote for nicest design. Can't wait to see the new BCD when Alex finishes it.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

That Centurion fork looks an awful lot like a Travis...but that's just me!

 

[Wilhelm]

@EVRAC

Gear box list

I have some additional informations for the completion of your list:

Bike builders: "devilwork cycles" (a prototype). http://www.dw-cycles.com resp. http://www.dw-cycles.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=0.

hub makers: "nupace" (a kind of CVT). However, the website is down. I found this information by google about the website: "Nupace - The Only Infinity Bicycle Hub In The World Copyright© 2005 - Nupace, Inc. Winston-Salem, North Carolina, USA Telephone: 001.336.722.7992 Email: hunter@nupace.com. Web site by AileronIT. www.nupace.com/".

 

[EVRAC]

Thank you.
I had seen those both before but forgot about them.
I'll update the list and re-post.
I'm also going to add websites.

 

[WheelieMan]

Really? Do tell

John Sullivan released a "rough draft" of a G-Boxx design via the Linkage program. There is no evidence that the design will actually be produced though... I guess you'll have to ask him!

 

[EVRAC]

THE GEARBOX LIST (I'll add websites as I can)

Bike builders:
- Lahar
- Honda
- GT
- B1
- Nicolai
- BCD
- Orange
- Nox cycles
- Alutech
- Solid bikes
- MBK
- MSC
- Racebike
- Ellsworth
- Richi-engineering
- BikeSchrott
- Centurion
- Diamondback
- Kelly's bicycles
- Devilwork cycles www.dw-cycles.com

Gearbox makers:
- Suntour
- Universal Transmissions
- Hayes

Hub makers:
- Shimano
- SRAM
- Sturmey-Archer
- Fallbrook Technologies.
- Nupace www.nupace.com / www.freeridehubs.com

Rumors:
Rocky Mountain? Specialized?, Santacruz? Evil?

Now that's getting to be a nice fat list.
Can anyone add to this?
Have I missed anything?[/QUOTE]

 

[LaharDesign]

Bike builders:
- Lahar
- Honda
- GT
- B1
- Nicolai
- BCD
- Orange
- Nox cycles
- Alutech
- Solid bikes
- MBK
- MSC
- Racebike
- Ellsworth
- Richi-engineering
- BikeSchrott
- Centurion
- Diamondback
- Kelly's bicycles
- Devilwork cycles www.dw-cycles.com
- James Dodds - ex Keewee top10 pro (Dh derinbox, onboard diskbr)
- Rob Metz -Ex Avanti/Keewee designer (all mountain derinbox)


Gearbox makers:
- Suntour
- Universal Transmissions
- Hayes

Hub makers:
- Shimano
- SRAM
- Sturmey-Archer
- Fallbrook Technologies.
- Nupace www.nupace.com / www.freeridehubs.com

Rumors:
Rocky Mountain? Specialized?, Santacruz? Evil?

Thought I better include the Rotorua Locals. Theirs are higher pivots than mine. Neither they or I nor anyone in the NZ Race scene can understand why so many daft Low-Pivot gearbox bikes are in the works. 7 NZ#1's in Lahars Pro-race development program since 1997 can't be wrong.
those low pivots!

 

[LaharDesign]

Maybe their scared the uci will ban non-der bikes if the full performance is unleashed.
Or that profitability will be damaged if gearbox bikes take over the market.

 

[Sandwich]

I kind of want to have sex with that centurion. kind of.

 

[EVRAC]

Bike builders:
- James Dodds - ex Keewee top10 pro (Dh derinbox, onboard diskbr)
- Rob Metz -Ex Avanti/Keewee designer (all mountain derinbox)

Thought I better include the Rotorua Locals. Theirs are higher pivots than mine. Neither they or I nor anyone in the NZ Race scene can understand why so many daft Low-Pivot gearbox bikes are in the works. 7 NZ#1's in Lahars Pro-race development program since 1997 can't be wrong.
those low pivots!

Any pics or links?

 

[Threepointtwo]

This site http://www.g-boxx.com/ has a bunch of good info. The Suntour design was licensed from Nicholai and does appear to be the cleanest design out there IMO. The Nicholai version has a listed weight of 3.8 kilos (8.4 lbs) for the 9 speed including cranks. What would a standard drivetrain weigh?

The Orange is using the Suntour version, no?

 

[Transcend]

This site http://www.g-boxx.com/ has a bunch of good info. The Suntour design was licensed from Nicholai and does appear to be the cleanest design out there IMO. The Nicholai version has a listed weight of 3.8 kilos (8.4 lbs) for the 9 speed including cranks. What would a standard drivetrain weigh?

The Orange is using the Suntour version, no?

Orange actually has one of each system.

 

[coma13]

How long before SRAM puts a gear box of their own on the market?

 

[offtheedge]

How long before SRAM puts a gear box of their own on the market?

and end the need for $200 replacement RDs......never!

 

[LaharDesign]

Any pics or links?

Dodzy's was on display at the WChamps. I'll ring him and see if I can make him cough up a piccie.

Metzy's is nearing completion.

 

[coma13]

Neither they or I nor anyone in the NZ Race scene can understand why so many daft Low-Pivot gearbox bikes are in the works.

Seriously! You've got a gear box! You don't need to worry about chain growth, you can have you chain come from wherever you want it to! Bring on the rearward axle path baby!

 

[ViciousDHer]

Heh heh heh....

Shhhhh

 

[LaharDesign]

This site http://www.g-boxx.com/ has a bunch of good info. The Suntour design was licensed from Nicholai and does appear to be the cleanest design out there IMO. The Nicholai version has a listed weight of 3.8 kilos (8.4 lbs) for the 9 speed including cranks. What would a standard drivetrain weigh?

The Orange is using the Suntour version, no?

at Rohloff 1700g, saint cranks~800g, DHVm9 mainframe 1300g the total for a Lahar gearbox setup and mainframe is the same as the 3.8kg gbox alone.

I agree 3 shaft boxes show great promise. 9 or 12 permanently meshed gears is to complicated, heavy and frictioned for my liking. I was working on a 6cog 4 speed with 250 -400% range for grav bikes 3 years ago, emailed Nicholai to say "why ain't we doing this?"
His reply was that he was. I shelved mine expecting his standard could be usable. The way the 3 shafts are folded up instead of stacked to get the output shaft high enough for IMO performance suspension geometry left me pretty dissapointed.

 

[Transcend]

Wait Wait. 8.4 lbs for the GEARBOX AND CRANKS ALONE? You have got to be kidding me. My entire frame weighs about 1lb over that with shock. That is absurd.

What is the weigh on the suntour part? comparable?

 

[FCLinder]

That is a lot!!!! That thing should only weigh as much as the parts its replacing on the bike.

 

[LaharDesign]

Wait Wait. 8.4 lbs for the GEARBOX AND CRANKS ALONE? You have got to be kidding me. My entire frame weighs about 1lb over that with shock. That is absurd.

What is the weigh on the suntour part? comparable?

yep!
a 3 shft 4 speed could weigh in at around 1lb
as could a inf variable splitcycle with no chains at all.

 

[vitox]

Wait Wait. 8.4 lbs for the GEARBOX AND CRANKS ALONE? You have got to be kidding me. My entire frame weighs about 1lb over that with shock. That is absurd.

What is the weigh on the suntour part? comparable?

i think its 3,2 kilo or 7,5lbs-ish

i dont think its THAT heavy, take into account dh cranks and bb and you have a 2 kilo gearbox

for those 2 kilos what do you get (thinking out loud, havent done the real math on this but i guess this will be close).......lessee....

cogs: 250g but you have to use a cog so say you drop 200g
chain: no savings here
chainguide: 450g (SRS) but probably will still run a bashguard. you drop another 250g
rear mech: none needed, drop 250g
rear hub: much less complicated hub needed, estimate weight saving of 150g
cables/housing: no savings
shifter: no savings
frame: v-boxx integral part of frame, no bb shell needed also part of frame is replaced by gearbox, uneducated guess would put weight saving to 200g

so that brings us to right around 1 kilo penalty at this point for a gearbox.

lahar and bcd those numbers sound about right to you guys?

 

[LaharDesign]

not too far off.
I've added up der parts to around half a pound less than a Rohloff when it replaces the rear hub. In a gearbox config the rohloff leaves around a one pound penalty. I have a 200g one piece tubular carbon crank system with 60g BB that would more than eliminate this weight penalty. I've already more than eliminated it with the low weight of a highly developed Carbon chassis.

 

[Bicyclist]

260 g system with BB?!?!?!?!

 

[LaharDesign]

260 g system with BB?!?!?!?!

You need a 47mm x 80mm BB shell that seats 35mm x 47mm bearings to thread it thru. The big weight saving is deleting the inefficient joining systems combined with a 35mm monocoque tubular axle arm configuration.
Cant see why anyone runs standard threaded BB shells anymore. Theres a big weight and durability improvement from deleting them alone. Any standard crank system can be used with simple inserts and 30x47mm bearings.

 

[ÆX]

yeah, thats about right vitox.

the suntour box is steel spurgears with 620% range.
way to much for a dh race bike. what i want to see is
if it can be hotboxed to save 2lbs and have like 250% ratio change.

if not i am not running it. it continue dialing my 300% ratio 8 speed.
that will weight about 4lbs with BB.

 

[EVRAC]

I forgot about this monster.

The KRUTOR HROTOR!!!

 

[LOOnatic]

good gawd man!
I actually remember this piece from a while ago.

 

[vitox]

yeah, thats about right vitox.

the suntour box is steel spurgears with 620% range.
way to much for a dh race bike. what i want to see is
if it can be hotboxed to save 2lbs and have like 250% ratio change.

if not i am not running it. it continue dialing my 300% ratio 8 speed.
that will weight about 4lbs with BB.

620%!!

you get 580% range with a 11-34 cassette and a 22-32-42 crankset....

so alex you think it will be possible to go inside the vboxx and start "deleting" (in laharese) cogs?

 

[EVRAC]

Bike builders:
- Lahar www.laharbikes.com
- Honda www.honda.com
- GT www.gtbicycles.com
- B1 www.beone-bikes.com
- Nicolai www.nicolai.net
- BCD www.bcdracing.com
- Orange www.orangebikes.co.uk
- Nox cycles www.noxcycles.com
- Alutech www.alutech-bikes.com
- Solid bikes www.solidbikes.de
- MBK
- MSC www.mscbikes.com
- Racebike www.racebike.cz
- Ellsworth www.ellsworthbikes.com
- Richi-engineering www.richi-engineering.de/images/gallery/71.jpg
- BikeSchrott
- Centurion
- Diamondback www.diamondback.com
- Kelly's bicycles
- Devilwork cycles www.dw-cycles.com
- James Dodds - ex Keewee top10 pro (Dh derinbox, onboard diskbr)
- Rob Metz -Ex Avanti/Keewee designer (all mountain derinbox)
- Krutor www.krutor.cz/bikes/hrotor/cz.htm

Gearbox web resources:
G-BOXX.ORG www.g-boxx.org

Gearbox makers:
- Suntour www.srsuntour-cycling.com
- Universal Transmissions www.g-boxx.com
- Hayes www.hayesdiscbrake.com

Hub makers:
- Shimano www.shimano.com
- SRAM www.sram.com
- Sturmey-Archer www.sturmey-archer.com
- Fallbrook Technologies www.fallbrooktech.com
- Nupace www.freeridehubs.com

Rumors:
Rocky Mountain? Specialized?, Santacruz? Evil?

 

[ÆX]

620%!!

you get 580% range with a 11-34 cassette and a 22-32-42 crankset....

so alex you think it will be possible to go inside the vboxx and start "deleting" (in laharese) cogs?

yes i do. not somthing suntour might like, but if we buy the box's
i don't think it maders.

still have to deal with the grip shift.

 

[LaharDesign]

I'd like to test whether a 3 shaft:

0-0-
0-0
0-0-

4 speed six cog gives enough gears for dh racing with my pro riders. I've discussed it with them and they all think so.
Vouilloz used to ride with a 5 speed cluster with perspex discs at each side of it. What the boys want is a few decently spaced gears that give them good repeatability in pedal sections.
Velodrome sprinters do real well with 1 and the speed range is simular.

Split-cycles though... Archimedes found the most efficient principle for torque conversion.

 

[LaharDesign]

yes i do. not somthing suntour might like, but if we buy the box's
i don't think it maders.

still have to deal with the grip shift.

Hows we all email rohloff service@rohloff.de and say "give us a paddle on each bar!"
I reckon me and Cameron might have some clout.

 

[LaharDesign]

Bike builders:
- Lahar www.laharbikes.com
- Honda www.honda.com
- GT www.gtbicycles.com
- B1 www.beone-bikes.com
- Nicolai www.nicolai.net
- BCD www.bcdracing.com
- Orange www.orangebikes.co.uk
- Nox cycles www.noxcycles.com
- Alutech www.alutech-bikes.com
- Solid bikes www.solidbikes.de
- MBK
- MSC www.mscbikes.com
- Racebike www.racebike.cz
- Ellsworth www.ellsworthbikes.com
- Richi-engineering www.richi-engineering.de/images/gallery/71.jpg
- BikeSchrott
- Centurion
- Diamondback www.diamondback.com
- Kelly's bicycles
- Devilwork cycles www.dw-cycles.com
- James Dodds - ex Keewee top10 pro (Dh derinbox, onboard diskbr)
- Rob Metz -Ex Avanti/Keewee designer (all mountain derinbox)
- Krutor www.krutor.cz/bikes/hrotor/cz.htm

Gearbox web resources:
G-BOXX.ORG www.g-boxx.org

Gearbox makers:
- Suntour www.srsuntour-cycling.com
- Universal Transmissions www.g-boxx.com
- Hayes www.hayesdiscbrake.com
- Rohloff www.Rohloff.de

Hub makers:
- Shimano www.shimano.com
- SRAM www.sram.com
- Rohloff
- Sturmey-Archer www.sturmey-archer.com
- Fallbrook Technologies www.fallbrooktech.com
- Nupace www.freeridehubs.com

Rumors:
Rocky Mountain? Specialized?, Santacruz? Evil?

Are we going to include transmissions on rigid bikes?

 

[Transcend]

Are you Gabby's boyfriend? If so we met in Roto when I was staying with SRAM.

 

[LaharDesign]

Are you Gabby's boyfriend? If so we met in Roto when I was staying with SRAM.

He is.
Hopefully his piccy coming....

 

[EVRAC]

Are we going to include transmissions on rigid bikes?

Such as? I think the evil 2013i is out of the picture. What did you have in mind?

 

[LaharDesign]

Such as? I think the evil 2013i is out of the picture. What did you have in mind?

Theres a whole lot of split-cycles predating mountain biking and I've seen a 50 year old patent on a 12 speed planetry that replaced the BB. The HPV community is rich in alternative transmissions. how wide do you cast the net.
I was told the Taiwanese govt paid 0.5 billion us$ in grants to develop a non der' drivetrain. did nothing come of that? (except "blissing on freadom is feel life" )

 

[EVRAC]

Let's limit it to viable, rideable, existing dirt-worthy contraptions with pics.