[Tenchiro]

While I personally think gambling is idiotic, and should be limited. He went way over the top with this statement...

California Governor Fights Indian Casino Expansion
By Adam Tanner

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a warning for state voters: "The Indians are ripping us off."

Schwarzenegger has taken up the line to convince them to reject a tribe-backed initiative on the Nov. 2 ballot that would allow rapid expansion of American Indian casinos in the nation's most populous state and derail the governor's own effort to manage casino growth.

Some critics say the governor is going too far with his campaign -- tapping a deep vein of hostility that dates back to the settlers' conquest of the U.S. West.

"His statement touches on racism," said Virgil Moorehead, chairman of the Big Lagoon Rancheria tribe in northern California. "It's so uneducated and so far-fetched to say that we are ripping off the state."

Added Victor Rocha, an American Indian who edits a Web site related to casino gambling: "I don't think it is racist but it sure fans the flames of racism by going and saying that and just having that type of hatred of Native Americans."

LINK

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

yup, gambling is stupid.
but his statement is too overboard.

i work in a casino. in fact, my family is in the biz, we own one, and a lottery. and i see casinos as a wealth-distribuition tool.

takes the money out of the wealthy enough to go and spend their money for the sake of a thrill, and takes the money out of the stupid enough to go and gamble thinking they are gonna win. both sides deserve to loose.

and with this money you make a few job opennings for people and a source of income for their families, you get heavily taxed, taxes which support sports, schools, etc, etc, and we keep a chunk.

so as far as people keep their vices under control is OK. and a few good laws prohibiting for example staying in a casino more than certain number of hours, or requiring casinos to kick out those who dont comply and enforcing it would be enough.

 

[Damn True]

Indian gaming is the biggest scam ever. There are a couple of wacky items on the ballot here that are being presented with some really disingenuous (sp?) spray.

a) A proposition on the ballot to allow indian gaming casinos in locations not on reservations. If voted in, and someone can prove they are a surviving member of a tribe, even if there is no reservation they can put up a casino anywhere.This is actually being fought by the major Indian Casinos (and the casinos in NV). They are presenting as follows: "The building of casinos in urban areas will have a negative impact on traffic, they might go in near a school and will be harmfull to children etc)

The real reason they are fighting it is that they fear that a casino built in the Bay Area will attract folks living in major population centers and make them less likely to drive to the remote Sierra foothill locations of the Indian Casinos make them less likely to go to NV.

b) Another proposition is about taxation of the Casino revenue. Currently, becuase the Casinos are supposedly owned by groups of individuals the revenue is taxed as personal income. The propositon would tax them the same as corporations. They are of course opposed to this but their ads are not at all honest about it. They make no mention of the increase in taxation that will occur if it is passed but rather make statements like, "Shouldn't the casinos have to pay taxes just like you?" Well they do pay taxes like me, the SHOULD pay taxes just like NV Casinos which are taxed under corprate tax schdules. They are just trying to avoid higher taxation.

 

[ohio]

I'm not well informed enough to have any opinion about policy; DTs opinions seem reasonable enough to me.

My only comment is, what kind of jackasses does Arnie surround himself with that NONE of them stopped that from being his tagline on this issue. It sounds like it wasn't off-the-cuff.

 

[Silver]

My only comment is, what kind of jackasses does Arnie surround himself with that NONE of them stopped that from being his tagline on this issue. It sounds like it wasn't off-the-cuff.

The same ones that let him get up on stage and say "Don't be economic girlie men!"

I liked the Daily Show's take better:

"So Arnold's message to the 1.3 million people who slid into poverty last year is 'Suck it up, faggots.'"

 

[N8 v2.0]

Oh indian casinos are ok.... the indians have just found a 21st century way to scalp the 'white-man...'

 

[ioscope]

Wow...
That's what you get for electing a german...

"The german's are stealing all of the high paying jobs in america."

I hope you understand my subtexts

 

[Silver]

Wow...
That's what you get for electing a german...

"The german's are stealing all of the high paying jobs in america."

I hope you understand my subtexts

I don't...

But, he's Austrian, isn't he? Any other nations in the past had trouble with Austrian born leaders?

 

[valve bouncer]

I don't...

But, he's Austrian, isn't he? Any other nations in the past had trouble with Austrian born leaders?

Hey leave the Aussies out of this.....oh sh*t....Austria.....alright, don't know any famous Austrian leaders.....Heider??????

 

[MMike]

Hey leave the Aussies out of this.....oh sh*t....Austria.....alright, don't know any famous Austrian leaders.....Heider??????

"Austria? BEAUTIFUL!! G'Day mate! Let's throw another shrimp on the barby!"

"It's ok! I'm a limo driver!"

 

[DRB]

Indian gaming is the biggest scam ever. There are a couple of wacky items on the ballot here that are being presented with some really disingenuous (sp?) spray.

SNIP

b) Another proposition is about taxation of the Casino revenue. Currently, becuase the Casinos are supposedly owned by groups of individuals the revenue is taxed as personal income. The propositon would tax them the same as corporations. They are of course opposed to this but their ads are not at all honest about it. They make no mention of the increase in taxation that will occur if it is passed but rather make statements like, "Shouldn't the casinos have to pay taxes just like you?" Well they do pay taxes like me, the SHOULD pay taxes just like NV Casinos which are taxed under corprate tax schdules. They are just trying to avoid higher taxation.

Apparently Arnie doesn't even want them to pay at the same rate as corporations but at a higher rate. From the article

Schwarzenegger is seeking to negotiate deals with tribes to pay the state more of what casinos make -- perhaps 15 to 25 percent, he said this week. But he has not explained how he reached those figures or why the casinos should pay more than the standard corporate tax.

I'd love to hear the answer as to why they need to tax them at a higher rate with the state corporate tax rate being 8.84%.

 

[DRB]

orginally posted by ALEXIS_DH

yup, gambling is stupid.
but his statement is too overboard.

i work in a casino. in fact, my family is in the biz, we own one, and a lottery. and i see casinos as a wealth-distribuition tool.

Oh yeah the average Indian is really benefitting from the ownership of casinos. The country's 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. With nearly a third living below the poverty level. But less than a quarter of America's 557 Indian tribes own casinos, and only 48 tribes earn more than $10 million a year on gaming. Almost a third of the money being brought in is by two tribes. And because of the structure of the tribes there is no revenue sharing.

In fact the casinos have probably hurt the average Indian more than they have helped. Because as the article points out

"The basic thing that Indian gaming has done is raise the salience of some very wealthy tribes at the expense of an accurate picture of what's going on in Indian country," said Jonathan Taylor, a research fellow at the Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development.

This inaccurate picture as lead to the cutting of the Bureau of Indian Affairs funding some 10% over the last 10 years or so.

 

[Skookum]

Tribes don't have to pay the State governments ANYTHING if they don't want to.
My tribe has 3 casino's goin, and i guess i make around $500 a year from that. Glad Arnie isn't up here to grab a hundred bucks from me.
Should be nothing suprising really, a European trying to rip off Indians.....

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

orginally posted by ALEXIS_DH

Oh yeah the average Indian is really benefitting from the ownership of casinos. The country's 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. With nearly a third living below the poverty level. But less than a quarter of America's 557 Indian tribes own casinos, and only 48 tribes earn more than $10 million a year on gaming. Almost a third of the money being brought in is by two tribes. And because of the structure of the tribes there is no revenue sharing.

In fact the casinos have probably hurt the average Indian more than they have helped. Because as the article points out



This inaccurate picture as lead to the cutting of the Bureau of Indian Affairs funding some 10% over the last 10 years or so.

well, my argument is for the casion industry as a whole.
am not US-indian, am half South-American-Indian. (a little difference in there).

as an outsider (our casino is in Lima, Peru, where casinos are just like any other biz and have no ethnic ownership requirements, we are not related to the US casino industry at all) i see the indian casinos as a necesary evil.

just like affirmative action. its tipping the balance towards the indians, since they had the balance tipped against them too much time, for them to have a chance to overcome this unfairness in a reasonable time-frame.

you may argue, that they are not killed anymore, and etc, etc, etc, so they dont deserve a "reparation".
BUT you cannot deny their chances today are no different from that of everyone else whose last 5 generations private properties were ripped off in the name if whatever (white man, progress, US, i dont care as its irrelevant).

and casinos, are a tool for them to make money. its not giving them money from the gvmt, but giving them a right to run an extremely profitable business.
is it unfair? yes, is it racist?? yes. but imo, other than this unfair meassure, it would be hard to tip the balance enough, to make it even. casinos are an unfair, but effective way of doing this.

and i dont think any problem with the poorness of indians as a whole can be attributed to the casinos themselves. their situations without casinos definately wont be any better imo.

maybe better laws regarding the yield distribution of casinos, or taxing the crap out of them to basically support college scholarships for indians, so that in maybe 30 years (or until indian wealth average and median get close to the national US average and median), the indian monolopy on the casino industry is no longer a law.

 

[Jesus]

Tribes don't have to pay the State governments ANYTHING if they don't want to.
My tribe has 3 casino's goin, and i guess i make around $500 a year from that. Glad Arnie isn't up here to grab a hundred bucks from me.
Should be nothing suprising really, a European trying to rip off Indians.....

And I don't think they should ever pay taxes.

Face it, the natives here got screwed. We killed most of them, and when the gov'ment finally gave them something (and i'm not getting into how many times we promised them something, then changed our minds), we gave them the lands the white people didn't want. We screwed them plain and simple.

Now, they found a way to make money, and the gov'ment wants a cut?

Fu@k that!

Let the Indians keep what they make. Hopefully the tribes are telling them to kiss their collective a$$es!

BTW, are Indians allowed to vote?

I heard that they weren't, but that was changed.

 

[Skookum]

And I don't think they should ever pay taxes.

The thing people don't seem to want to grasp is that tribes are treated as sovereign nations within and under the jurisdiction of the federal government(y'know good ole U.S. of A.). States and city governments don't have any say in what tribes do. It's kind of like Nevada telling California to pay up for whatever....
BUT the tribes do participate in dealings with states for various reasons, i know the biggest and practically only thing going on in Inchelium where alot of my family lives is a tribal run business Post and Pole. If you are a tribal member working there you pay state taxes, but i believe the only reason is to be admitted into benefits from the state like L&I, unemployement etc. etc.
i pay all kinds of taxes while off the reservation which means all the time. Jesus is right i shouldn't have to pay a frikkin dime but i do pay and unlike alot of people i don't whine about it. Well not often at least....

BTW, are Indians allowed to vote?

I heard that they weren't, but that was changed.

Yah changed on June 1, 1924 (43 STAT. L 253) PROVIDES THAT ALL INDIANS BORN WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

 

[DRB]

well, my argument is for the casion industry as a whole.
am not US-indian, am half South-American-Indian. (a little difference in there).

as an outsider (our casino is in Lima, Peru, where casinos are just like any other biz and have no ethnic ownership requirements, we are not related to the US casino industry at all) i see the indian casinos as a necesary evil.

just like affirmative action. its tipping the balance towards the indians, since they had the balance tipped against them too much time, for them to have a chance to overcome this unfairness in a reasonable time-frame.

you may argue, that they are not killed anymore, and etc, etc, etc, so they dont deserve a "reparation".
BUT you cannot deny their chances today are no different from that of everyone else whose last 5 generations private properties were ripped off in the name if whatever (white man, progress, US, i dont care as its irrelevant).

and casinos, are a tool for them to make money. its not giving them money from the gvmt, but giving them a right to run an extremely profitable business.
is it unfair? yes, is it racist?? yes. but imo, other than this unfair meassure, it would be hard to tip the balance enough, to make it even. casinos are an unfair, but effective way of doing this.

and i dont think any problem with the poorness of indians as a whole can be attributed to the casinos themselves. their situations without casinos definately wont be any better imo.

maybe better laws regarding the yield distribution of casinos, or taxing the crap out of them to basically support college scholarships for indians, so that in maybe 30 years (or until indian wealth average and median get close to the national US average and median), the indian monolopy on the casino industry is no longer a law.

I'm not arguing that they don't deserve everything they get BUT the problem is that the majority aren't getting enough and even that is being hurt by the image that Indians are raking in the dough. Its an image thing. I'm with Skookum (I think) that the Tribes should tell California to f' off.

 

[Damn True]

Jesus is right i shouldn't have to pay a frikkin dime but i do pay and unlike alot of people i don't whine about it. Well not often at least....


Yah changed on June 1, 1924 (43 STAT. L 253) PROVIDES THAT ALL INDIANS BORN WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

So you want representation without taxation?

 

[Silver]

So you want representation without taxation?

It's the least we can do after attempting genocid...I mean Manifest Destiny.

 

[ummbikes]

It's the least we can do after attempting genocid...I mean Manifest Destiny.

That reminds me of a saying one of my professors used to toss around, "Christopher Columbus was a poor navigator who also was a mass murderer." I think he pinched the saying from Howard Zinn. Oh, well that was a long, long, long, time ago so it doesn't matter.

On a side note our vote by mail ballets showed up Friday. So I feel safe in saying that I am one of the first people who can say I didn't vote for Bush.

 

[LordOpie]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

 

[Silver]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

Let's cross that bridge after we start to acknowledge what happened to the Indians. Baby steps, my friend.

 

[Jesus]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

If the gov'ment would leave them alone, and actaully keep their word on the subject, we wouldn't be discussing this.

Blame Arnie.

 

[LordOpie]

just seems odd that indians are getting compensation and blacks aren't.

 

[MikeD]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

I hope that was sarcasm, because if it wasn't, I'm about to tear into your desire for an ethnic homeland for Jews...I mean, I don't think it's an incomprehensible idea, especially in a post-holocaust world, but to think another ethnic group doesn't deserve redress while supporting the ideas of Zionism is pretty out there.

"What people did to the Indians" is kind of like walking onto the scene of a car wreck that your grandfather caused while in a bit of azlheimer's-induced road rage...you can try to help out as best you can with all the injured parties, clear up the wreckage, call the insurance companies...and no matter what, you're still related to the asshole who caused the accident. You might not feel personally guilty, but you're sure gonna be answering a lot of questions that old granddad can't because he's comatose, and will probably end up footing a lot of the bill. (and it's a good thing Granddad left you a lot of money in his inheritance!)

MD

MD

 

[Damn True]

Do Spain and France owe the Basques?
Does Brittian owe the Irish? The Scots?
Does Japan owe the Okinowans?
Does Spain owe Mayans, or natives of innumerable central and south American countries?


It would be better if the bad stuff that happend to Native Americans hadn't happend, but that is the way things go. All throughout history larger more powerful socities overwhelm smaller less powerful ones. The map of europe today looks nothing like it did 100, 200 years ago. The map of Africa today looks nothing like it did a few hundred years ago. Imperialism by the French Spainish, and Brits was responsible for some really horrible stuff, but it also created some industrialized countries that would still be in the dark ages if it had not been for their influence.

 

[LordOpie]

...but it also created some industrialized countries that would still be in the dark ages if it had not been for their influence.

you say that like it's a bad thing? Except for internet porn, the dark ages weren't that bad.

 

[fluff]

you say that like it's a bad thing? Except for internet porn, the dark ages weren't that bad.

They weren't even that dark.

 

[LordOpie]

They weren't even that dark.

haha, i alaways picture the dark ages as seriously over-cast cloudy.

 

[Tenchiro]

On a side note our vote by mail ballets showed up Friday. So I feel safe in saying that I am one of the first people who can say I didn't vote for Bush.

Hehe, mine too. Although I am still wondering if Kerry deserves my vote either...

 

[fluff]

haha, i alaways picture the dark ages as seriously over-cast cloudy.

That's Eastern Europe (before the fall of the Soviet Union) - always overcast and chilly. In fact, monochrome - they got colour several decades after the West.

 

[MikeD]

I thought everyone lived in Scotland in the Dark Ages...

 

[Skookum]

So you want representation without taxation?

Nope don't want to get ripped off by people looking to rip off the poor for the rich.
Many people on here don't want to get taxed either, do you voluntarily pay your state tax when you buy something online from another state? Does anybody here do that? Get off your high horse.....

 

[MikeD]

I don't think the Indian nations have representatives in Congress, do they?

Anyhow, I don't think America 'owes' the Indians anything at this point, except to hold to the treaties that were made! We can't 'make up for history,' except to acknowledge the past and move on despite it. Part of doing that in good faith means not breaking any more agreements when it's convenient.

Just like someone else said...when they had no money, no one worried about taxes. Now that they've found a way to make a buck, eveyone's crying foul. Screw that.

The only thing that's fishy is the amount of people who are suddenly 'indians' these days...screw that too! Non-tribal members also shouldn't be allowed to be involved in the business. There's way too much corruption and too many fat cats, both indian and white, getting rich while many indians really get zilch.

MD

 

[DRB]

I don't think the Indian nations have representatives in Congress, do they?

Anyhow, I don't think America 'owes' the Indians anything at this point, except to hold to the treaties that were made! We can't 'make up for history,' except to acknowledge the past and move on despite it. Part of doing that in good faith means not breaking any more agreements when it's convenient.

Just like someone else said...when they had no money, no one worried about taxes. Now that they've found a way to make a buck, eveyone's crying foul. Screw that.

The only thing that's fishy is the amount of people who are suddenly 'indians' these days...screw that too! Non-tribal members also shouldn't be allowed to be involved in the business. There's way too much corruption and too many fat cats, both indian and white, getting rich while many indians really get zilch.

MD

BINGO.

 

[Damn True]

Nope don't want to get ripped off by people looking to rip off the poor for the rich.
Many people on here don't want to get taxed either, do you voluntarily pay your state tax when you buy something online from another state? Does anybody here do that? Get off your high horse.....

Well, if your income is generated and spent entirely on a reservation then by all means you shouldn't be taxed.
Do you work on a reservation, and spend ALL of your money on a reservation?

If not, pay taxes, just like the rest of us.

 

[Skookum]

The only thing that's fishy is the amount of people who are suddenly 'indians' these days...screw that too! Non-tribal members also shouldn't be allowed to be involved in the business. There's way too much corruption and too many fat cats, both indian and white, getting rich while many indians really get zilch.

MD

You're opening up a whole other can of worms here..... You can go on and on about blood quantam issues, restricting the rights of tribes to hire outside of the tribe. While on the surface i agree with you, there still is alot more to it.
Just one example, i'm a roofer i sure could put a great roof on a casino, but i personally don't want to run one, nor do i have the qualifications to do so.... Besides the sound of slot machines and stench of cigarrette smoke drive me insane.....

 

[Silver]

Well, if your income is generated and spent entirely on a reservation then by all means you shouldn't be taxed.
Do you work on a reservation, and spend ALL of your money on a reservation?

If not, pay taxes, just like the rest of us.

Are Indian Casinos on tribal lands?

 

[MikeD]

Just one example, i'm a roofer i sure could put a great roof on a casino, but i personally don't want to run one, nor do i have the qualifications to do so.... Besides the sound of slot machines and stench of cigarrette smoke drive me insane.....

What? I thought this was like the Japanese and math! Are you sure you can't even deal blackjack?

 

[Skookum]

Well, if your income is generated and spent entirely on a reservation then by all means you shouldn't be taxed.
Do you work on a reservation, and spend ALL of your money on a reservation?

If not, pay taxes, just like the rest of us.

Isn't that what i wrote? I do pay my taxes...... ALOT of taxes trust me.
If you buy a candy bar in Oregon, i'll hold you accountable if you don't pay taxes on it when you return to California..... because that's your logic not mine.....