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The Joys of Socialized Heath Care (Canadian Style)

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Need surgery? Here's how long you'll wait
Calgary Herald | July 28, 2004 | Jason Fekete

Susan Warner swallows addictive painkillers every day to ease the crippling pain she endures waiting for knee-replacement surgery.

One of her knees gave out in October and the Calgary woman has been waiting for the surgery since. However, Warner, 51, is lost in a lineup for the operation at the Rockyview General Hospital that she says could last 18 months.

"It's inhuman. The quality of my life is horrible and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it," she said Tuesday.

Waiting lists are crippling Canada's health-care system and frustrating patients and doctors alike. The Canadian Medical Association released a 10-point prescription on Tuesday that targets waiting lists for surgery and diagnostic procedures like MRIs and CT scans.

It proposes setting benchmark waiting times for surgery, hiring more health professionals, and expanding options for Canadians to get treatment in other jurisdictions.

In Calgary, as the city expands, so does the pressure to get people treated at local hospitals in a reasonable amount of time.

There are about 25,000 Calgarians waiting for surgery or scans at the city's four major hospitals. And the Calgary Health Region estimates waiting times for surgery are growing at an astronomical rate of 12 to 18 per cent every year.

Alberta Health's website says waiting times in Calgary are as follows:

- 62 weeks for a hip replacement at Peter Lougheed Centre;

- 62 weeks for general surgery at Rocky- view General Hospital;

- 30 weeks for MRI scans at Foothills Medical Centre;

- 54 weeks for knee replacement surgery at Rockyview General Hospital;

- 11 weeks for cardiac surgery at Foothills Medical Centre.

For Warner, the wait has come with a heavy price. She says she has become addicted to painkillers that are a daily staple to help her hobble through her workday.

Warner's a photographer, a job that keeps her on her feet most of the day, with or without her cane.

"I know I'm addicted. When I wake up in the morning, I'm shaking and have headaches," she said with a sigh. "I'll have to deal with that after the fact."

In their report, Canada's doctors and nurses are sending a direct message to premiers meeting this week in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ont., for three days of talks largely on Canada's ailing health-care system.

In its report, titled The Taming of the Queue, the Canadian Medical Association and Canadian Nurses Association argue the Canada Health Act should be revamped to help Canadians get quicker access to better health care.

Waiting for care is part of the "normal functioning of any health system," the report says, but warns excessive waits can have "significant health and economic impacts."

During the June election, Prime Minister Paul Martin identified waiting lists as the top issue facing the medicare system.

He vowed to spend $4 billion over the next five years to reduce waiting times, including focusing on five specific areas: cancer care, joint replacement, heart surgery, diagnostic imaging and sight restoration surgery.

The medical association's report proposes a 10-point plan to fix waiting lists, including:

* Establishing reasonable waiting times for different procedures;

* Allowing hospital funding to expand or contract depending on pressures, so service delivery isn't constrained by budget caps;

* Aggressively recruiting and retaining health-care professionals;

* Prioritizing services and ailments through consultation with the public and health-care providers;

* Improving the ability of Canadians to seek care in other provinces or out of the country.

The association's president said sustainable reforms -- not just more cash -- should be the premiers' focus if they hope to wean the system off its crutches.

"Access to health care in a timely manner is job No. 1 and Canadians expect nothing less," said Dr. Sunil Patel. "If (the premiers) focus on dollars alone, then we have lost everything. Canadians will lose confidence in their health-care system."

The report does say the system needs money.

"There is no doubt that the availability of resources does come to bear on the timeliness and accessibility of health-care services," the report says.

The Calgary Health Region has thrown hundreds of millions of dollars into expediting care for residents.

In February, the CHR announced a $450-million plan to open new beds and operating rooms, and expand emergency and intensive care units at the Foothills Medical Centre, Peter Lougheed Centre and Rocky-view General Hospital.

"Our longest waiting lists are in orthopedics and general surgery," said Tracy Wasylak, the CHR's vice-president of surgical services. "We're hoping to put resources into both of those programs this year to drop those waiting lists."

Sick of waiting for her pain to be eased, Warner, meanwhile, said she looked to Montana to expedite the surgery. However, the procedure would cost $25,000 -- leaving her to wait and hope in Canada.

"It's brutal. I'm in constant pain," Warner said. "I can't work to full capacity. It's difficult to function."

jfekete@theherald.canwest.com


- - -

Get in line . . .

Waiting periods for surgical procedures at Calgary hospitals:

Hips, knees, bones, joints and muscles: 20 to 62 weeks

MRI scans: 17 to 31 weeks

General surgery (removal of gall bladder, hernia, lumps, cysts, varicose veins): 23 to 62 weeks

Also See: Lining up for surgery on page A3; Tom Olsen on page A9.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Ridemonkey said:
You wouldn't be getting that surgery in the US at all if you couldn't pay for it - and most couldn't.
How many on here have been turned down for medical help after a bike crash etc?

I'd say probably less than 1% if that.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
5,407
0
New England
If socialized health care is so shoddy, makes you wonder about socialized law enforcement and fire protection...
 

Ridemonkey

This is not an active account
Sep 18, 2002
4,108
1
Toronto, Canada
N8 said:
How many on here have been turned down for medical help after a bike crash etc?

I'd say probably less than 1% if that.
Actually that's pretty funny. The US version of Health Care - working folks paying for the uninsured peoples health care through increased insurance rates and medical costs - is somehow better than socialization.

I'm not saying socialization is the answer, but our system leaves a lot to be desired too.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Some interesting health stats:

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, the cost of private health insurance rose 13.9% in 2003, following increases of 12.9% in 2002 and 10.9% in 2001. The average yearly insurance premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance were $3,383 for single coverage and $9,068 for family coverage in 2003.

A recent report for the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation said those who lack insurance are less likely to get needed medical care or to have a personal physician, less likely to get preventive care, and twice as likely to be in poor health or fair health. And a separate survey of 1,954 emergency-room doctors shows 74% of them say their patients without insurance are more likely to die prematurely.

Both the cost of health insurance and the number of Americans who lack it have been shooting up in recent years. According to the Census Bureau , the number of uninsured rose by 2.4 million, to 43.6 million, between 2001 and 2002. It was the second yearly increase in a row. More than 15% of the population lacked insurance in 2002, and figures for 2003 are expected to show another increase when they are released in September because the spiraling cost of coverage is putting pressure on companies to drop or reduce coverage.

So it ain't all roses.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Ridemonkey said:
Try getting a surgery like that without insurance. Aint gonna happen.
I beg to differ. A guy I know that works at the LBS had to have his leg amputated because he had cancer that had gotten into his bones. He had no insurance, no nothing but the doctor/hospital still did the procedure, including follow up chemo and physical therapy.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,399
22,481
Sleazattle
Ridemonkey said:
Actually that's pretty funny. The US version of Health Care - working folks paying for the uninsured peoples health care through increased insurance rates and medical costs - is somehow better than socialization.

I'm not saying socialization is the answer, but our system leaves a lot to be desired too.

From what I know, the Canadian health care system is scary. But ours is pretty facked too. There are doctors loosing money, prices are skyrocketing insurance premiums too. There is someone getting all that money and I think it is the damn lawyers and drug companies.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Actually, there is a sort of national health care in the US. You don't see it until you are 65+. It's the Medicare program. Once you hit that golden age, nearly everything medical is FREE to you. It's a good program for the most part.

However, you can still benifit from Medicare at any age, if you are on the Welfare.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
N8 said:
Actually, there is a sort of national health care in the US. You don't see it until you are 65+. It's the Medicare program. Once you hit that golden age, nearly everything medical is FREE to you. It's a good program for the most part.

However, you can still benifit from Medicare at any age, if you are on the Welfare.
So are you for or against national health care?
 

BostonBullit

Monkey
Oct 27, 2001
230
0
Medway, MA
How did healthcare work 100yrs ago? did they have health insurance or any such thing? How about 50yrs ago? (non-retorical, I'm actually looking for an answer...qualifier: a correct, informed answer).
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
BostonBullit said:
How did healthcare work 100yrs ago? did they have health insurance or any such thing? How about 50yrs ago? (non-retorical, I'm actually looking for an answer...qualifier: a correct, informed answer).
No health insurance.

However, the average person could actually afford a doctor visit. Plus, anyone could hang a shingle up as a "doctor." Much more of a "free" market. Problem is, then you have to put up with more quacks than you do now.

For the record, my family is living under the same healthcare system this lady is, and yes, there are waits, for NON-ESSENTIAL surgery. My uncle with cancer? No wait for him. My dad's carpal tunnel? Three or four months.

The grass is always greener. My dad used to bitch, until he found out what my wife and I pay for health insurance in the US. All of a sudden the socialized stuff seems like a deal. It's nice not having to make medical decisions based on whether or not you'd rather eat or see a doctor this week.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
N8 said:
National health care, in the form of Medicare, is fine with me for the Pensioners.
Why is it fine for only pensioners?
(I realise to answer this question you may have to proffer an opinion that takes more than one line so I wish you the best. I think you can do it.)
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
BostonBullit said:
How did healthcare work 100yrs ago? did they have health insurance or any such thing? How about 50yrs ago? (non-retorical, I'm actually looking for an answer...qualifier: a correct, informed answer).
What drugs were around 100 and 50 years ago?
What was the medical technology?
What did they really know about treatments?

The issue is that medical technology has had so many HUGE advancements. The fist knee replacement was done in the 70's (http://www.knee1.com/news/tech.cfm/49/1), that is only 30 years ago!!!

This year (maybe) they will be introducing an articulating Spinal implant! It's already been implanted in thousands of patients in europe (the US's testing grounds...), and a couple hundred here in the US. Do you even realize the cost to produce this device and then the cost to implant it?

I really don't think you can compare prices/insurance from so long ago with that of today. It would like comparing a brand new VP Free (Rootbeer) to a bike from 50 or 100 years ago...
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Silver said:
Plus, anyone could hang a shingle up as a "doctor." Much more of a "free" market. Problem is, then you have to put up with more quacks than you do now.
yes, but back then, they doctor would give you a free haircut with your medical procedure, even if you died.
 

Ridemonkey

This is not an active account
Sep 18, 2002
4,108
1
Toronto, Canada
Andyman_1970 said:
I beg to differ. A guy I know that works at the LBS had to have his leg amputated because he had cancer that had gotten into his bones. He had no insurance, no nothing but the doctor/hospital still did the procedure, including follow up chemo and physical therapy.
That's a different thing entirely. Joint replacements are not matters of life and death. They will stick you in a wheel chair before they give you a 75,000 dollar hip replacement for free.
 

Ridemonkey

This is not an active account
Sep 18, 2002
4,108
1
Toronto, Canada
BostonBullit said:
How did healthcare work 100yrs ago? did they have health insurance or any such thing? How about 50yrs ago? (non-retorical, I'm actually looking for an answer...qualifier: a correct, informed answer).

100 years ago there were no ultra-expensive surgeries, procedures, or technologies. People would often die of their ailments. Much simpler back then.

These days there are all kinds of crazy expensive ways to extend life, and everyone feels entitled to them just cuz they are there.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Ridemonkey said:
That's a different thing entirely. Joint replacements are not matters of life and death. They will stick you in a wheel chair before they give you a 75,000 dollar hip replacement for free.
Uh, he got physical therapy after his aputation, this was not a matter of life or death, the Dr. could have just as easily stuck him in a wheelchair.

I realize this is anecdotal, but it is a real life situation in which someone needed a medical procedure(s) and was not able to pay for them up front and had no insurance.
 

BostonBullit

Monkey
Oct 27, 2001
230
0
Medway, MA
Ridemonkey said:
100 years ago there were no ultra-expensive surgeries, procedures, or technologies. People would often die of their ailments. Much simpler back then.

These days there are all kinds of crazy expensive ways to extend life, and everyone feels entitled to them just cuz they are there.
Ok, so the gist of it is that healthcare was had by all (or most) 100yrs ago because there wasn't much to healthcare in the first place. so I guess my new question is what exactly are people "entitled" to for healthcare? the great state of MA, in a never ending race to do more things "first in the nation", has decided to try and add "healthcare" as one of the basic rights gaurenteed by the state constitution. So do you have the right to healthcare that simply keeps you alive, or do your rights extend to the 'quality of life' area of medicine? what about totally elective things like boob jobs? does every woman in MA have the right to big fake hooters and a perfect nose? do we all have the right to manoxonil to keep our brains from freezing? ....and if we do have the rights to all these things how will they be paid for? do you really want to pay for new boobs for the woman next door; even if you don't get to use em?

Silver -- what's your dads total income tax hit (% wise) after all that 'free' healthcare? the money's coming from somewhere
 

Ridemonkey

This is not an active account
Sep 18, 2002
4,108
1
Toronto, Canada
Andyman_1970 said:
Uh, he got physical therapy after his aputation, this was not a matter of life or death, the Dr. could have just as easily stuck him in a wheelchair.
:rolleyes:

I think you understand what I am talking about.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
BostonBullit said:
So do you have the right to healthcare that simply keeps you alive, or do your rights extend to the 'quality of life' area of medicine? what about totally elective things like boob jobs? does every woman in MA have the right to big fake hooters and a perfect nose? use em?
Come on Andy, that's a non sequitir N8 would be proud of. :nope:
 

Ridemonkey

This is not an active account
Sep 18, 2002
4,108
1
Toronto, Canada
I'm more a fan of the wild west version. Take care of yourself or suffer the consequences.


BostonBullit said:
Ok, so the gist of it is that healthcare was had by all (or most) 100yrs ago because there wasn't much to healthcare in the first place. so I guess my new question is what exactly are people "entitled" to for healthcare? the great state of MA, in a never ending race to do more things "first in the nation", has decided to try and add "healthcare" as one of the basic rights gaurenteed by the state constitution. So do you have the right to healthcare that simply keeps you alive, or do your rights extend to the 'quality of life' area of medicine? what about totally elective things like boob jobs? does every woman in MA have the right to big fake hooters and a perfect nose? do we all have the right to manoxonil to keep our brains from freezing? ....and if we do have the rights to all these things how will they be paid for? do you really want to pay for new boobs for the woman next door; even if you don't get to use em?

Silver -- what's your dads total income tax hit (% wise) after all that 'free' healthcare? the money's coming from somewhere
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
BostonBullit said:
Silver -- what's your dads total income tax hit (% wise) after all that 'free' healthcare? the money's coming from somewhere
Actually, if you count my health insurance costs as taxes (which is only fair, because he's getting the same service included in) I'm really not much better off tax wise than I would be in Alberta.

I'm well aware that there is no such thing as "free" healthcare. I prefer single payer healthcare because it is more efficient. As far as healthcare being a right, remember that many of the things you take for granted (police protection, firemen, roads, clean drinking water) never used to be rights either.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Silver said:
As far as healthcare being a right, remember that many of the things you take for granted (police protection, firemen, roads, clean drinking water) never used to be rights either.
Beer should be a right. I'm voting next time.......when the piss runs free thank me......that rhymes :love: :love: :nuts:
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Silver said:
I'm well aware that there is no such thing as "free" healthcare. I prefer single payer healthcare because it is more efficient. As far as healthcare being a right, remember that many of the things you take for granted (police protection, firemen, roads, clean drinking water) never used to be rights either.
Ah.. of course you realize the police/firemen have no legal obligation to protect you either.

Would you like healthcare that had no legal obligation to cover you either?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Update:

My doctor thinks I have a broken scapula (I crashed last night.)

The first appointment I could get for an x-ray was August 11. My doctor is currently calling to try get me in sooner.

So for every crappy anecdote N8 has, I've got one to counter it.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Silver said:
Update:

My doctor thinks I have a broken scapula (I crashed last night.)

The first appointment I could get for an x-ray was August 11. My doctor is currently calling to try get me in sooner.

So for every crappy anecdote N8 has, I've got one to counter it.

BS...
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
N8 said:
Sure N8, BS.

I'm the one sitting here with a broken scapula (probably, I don't know for sure yet because my HMO kinda sucks...)

Hey, I'm not looking for sympathy from you, believe me. Your posts make a bit of sense after a few Vicodin.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Silver said:
Sure N8, BS.

I'm the one sitting here with a broken scapula (probably, I don't know for sure yet because my HMO kinda sucks...)

Hey, I'm not looking for sympathy from you, believe me. Your posts make a bit of sense after a few Vicodin.
You can get that sucker x-rayed at any 'first care/emergency clinic' within a couple hours.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
N8 said:
You can get that sucker x-rayed at any 'first care/emergency clinic' within a couple hours.
I'm aware of that, and that's what I'm going to do today, unless my doctor's office got me an appointment sooner.

However, that is a stupid and wasteful solution. My family doctor has seen me allready, now my insurance is going to end up paying twice for the same thing. But, since it's the "free" market, it must work, right?
 

BostonBullit

Monkey
Oct 27, 2001
230
0
Medway, MA
Silver said:
Update:

My doctor thinks I have a broken scapula (I crashed last night.)

The first appointment I could get for an x-ray was August 11. My doctor is currently calling to try get me in sooner.

So for every crappy anecdote N8 has, I've got one to counter it.
chit man, that sucks. for stuff like that I just go directly to the ER...do not pass go, do not call the insurance folks. I'd rather fight it out over a bill than wait 3 days to get an x-ray.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
BostonBullit said:
chit man, that sucks. for stuff like that I just go directly to the ER...do not pass go, do not call the insurance folks. I'd rather fight it out over a bill than wait 3 days to get an x-ray.
Actually 13 days at first :) The ER here is bad too, unless you are puking up blood or have a bone sticking out. I've seen people standing in the waiting rooms because there weren't any seats left.

My doc bitched at them, and I go this afternoon. Just like the Canadian system :p