Quantcast

the morality of profit

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
is it moral:

- when it uses american labor?
- when it's below a certain threshold?
- when there's no monopoly?
- when it provides increased quality of life?
- when it exploits almost no one?

how about immoral:

- when it's gained on the backs of children
- when it's for a select few
- when it's legal, but not ethical
- no distribution to workers beyond salary
- gained from controversy (race baiting, creationism textbooks, abortion clinics)
- religious groups


when deemed to be immoral, what should be done?
- re-distribute to charity
- gov't seizure of assets & applied to gen'l fund
- judicial action
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
you only live once and my bet is the vast majority of peeps would do anthing it takes to be wealthy if the opportunity presented itself.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,033
1
Denver
Yes, no, no, no, no,no, no, yes, no, no, no, no, yes, no, no, no, no, yes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, -wait a minute...YES!!!! OLA!
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
29,938
2,740
Portland, OR
So what about the Scientologist who ran a Ponzi Scheme for over 10 years and stole millions of dollars from both members of the church and "normal" people, but gave millions to multiple charities?

Robin Hood? or Asshole with guilt?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
so if my portfolio chases down profits by investing in halliburton/kbr, mcdeez, & vivid entertainment, are my investment choices - which are used to provide for my family - immoral?
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
29,938
2,740
Portland, OR
so if my portfolio chases down profits by investing in halliburton/kbr, mcdeez, & vivid entertainment, are my investment choices - which are used to provide for my family - immoral?
Yes.

As if there aren't other ways to provide for your family.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
is it moral:

- when it uses american labor?
- when it's below a certain threshold?
- when there's no monopoly?
- when it provides increased quality of life?
- when it exploits almost no one?

how about immoral:

- when it's gained on the backs of children
- when it's for a select few
- when it's legal, but not ethical
- no distribution to workers beyond salary
- gained from controversy (race baiting, creationism textbooks, abortion clinics)
- religious groups


when deemed to be immoral, what should be done?
- re-distribute to charity
- gov't seizure of assets & applied to gen'l fund
- judicial action
I don't think morality and capitalism are to terribly compatible. The whole point of capitalism is to work hard and make as much money for yourself as possible. There is no part of capitalism that involves the welfare of those less fortunate than you. The fact is large corporations number one goal is profit, if that involves paying kids 5 cents a day then so be it. As long as the executives are making as much money as possible (this is the idea of capitalism after all) they do not seem to care who is effected. Morality in a lot of ways, contradicts the idea of capitalism
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,218
231
chez moi
I don't think morality and capitalism are to terribly compatible. The whole point of capitalism is to work hard and make as much money for yourself as possible. There is no part of capitalism that involves the welfare of those less fortunate than you. The fact is large corporations number one goal is profit, if that involves paying kids 5 cents a day then so be it. As long as the executives are making as much money as possible (this is the idea of capitalism after all) they do not seem to care who is effected. Morality in a lot of ways, contradicts the idea of capitalism
Wrong...there is no 'point' to capitalism, and within a capitalist framework, one can be moral or immoral.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
I think the whole world is controlled by 300 people. It started with Mayer A. Bauer, who started the first international bank and changed his name to Rothchild (red shield). That family also owns most of the FED, who gives the money to countries and can create or destroy wealth w/the stroke of a pen. Rockefellor, Jp Morgan are also in the gang. They've been runnin' the market and economy since 1920. If you get lucky enough to ride a wave of stock they approve of, good for you. Every company has it's immoral aspect. I'd rather own KBR than Mattel due to labor issues even though one is war mongers and the other makes toys.

:popcorn:
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
Wrong...there is no 'point' to capitalism, and within a capitalist framework, one can be moral or immoral.
The idea behind capitol ism is that through free market and such everything will balance out. There is also the idea of competition being good for the economy, and stimulated growth. So this idea of competition being does exist in capitalism, I would argue that the idea of competition is not conducive to morality. Yes you are free to be a good person in a capitalist system, but you are going to get ahead and be more successful if you are an ass (success being defined in economic terms)
 

Red Rabbit

Picky Pooper
Jan 27, 2007
2,718
0
Colorado
I look out for the bottom line. Profit is profit.

Creating or generating profit leads to many things

let's use semiconductor market as an example. Both Intel and AMD are fighting for more money and more market share.

It creates competition (AMD VS Intel)
It creates better products (Quad Core Chips vs. 386)
it creates a wide variety of products Centrino, amd x64, Qaud core, tri core)
It provides jobs (research, QA, Marketing, etc)

Profit encourages people to work harder.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
I look out for the bottom line. Profit is profit.

Creating or generating profit leads to many things

let's use semiconductor market as an example. Both Intel and AMD are fighting for more money and more market share.

It creates competition (AMD VS Intel)
It creates better products (Quad Core Chips vs. 386)
it creates a wide variety of products Centrino, amd x64, Qaud core, tri core)
It provides jobs (research, QA, Marketing, etc)

Profit encourages people to work harder.
That is true, but it also causes companies to do things that are criminal in order to make money. Look at oil and auto companies buying out bus companies and then closing them,
 

Red Rabbit

Picky Pooper
Jan 27, 2007
2,718
0
Colorado
how about immoral:

- when it's gained on the backs of children
- when it's for a select few
- when it's legal, but not ethical
- no distribution to workers beyond salary
- gained from controversy (race baiting, creationism textbooks, abortion clinics)
- religious groups


Backs of children

We have no right to tell another country how to run their business.
That would be the same as telling them how to run their gov't. (See Iraq)


When it's for a select few


How do you mean?


when it's legal, but not ethical

Legal and ethical are the same in my book.

no distribution to workers beyond salary

When you take a job it is up to you to negotiate your benefits and wages.

Example. Sticky notes were created by 3m, the actually designer only received a small bonus.

That's fair, he chose that job knowing the benefits and consequences

gained from controversy (race baiting, creationism textbooks, abortion clinics)

If they can sell it, fine. It is your right in the US to make money.

religious groups

No, religion is not a corporation. Unless they pay taxes like a corporation they should never see substantial profit.
.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
how about immoral:

- when it's gained on the backs of children
- when it's for a select few
- when it's legal, but not ethical
- no distribution to workers beyond salary
- gained from controversy (race baiting, creationism textbooks, abortion clinics)
- religious groups


Backs of children

We have no right to tell another country how to run their business.
That would be the same as telling them how to run their gov't. (See Iraq)
Legal or not it is WRONG to exploit children, laws do not define morality.


When it's for a select few


How do you mean?
Half the wealth in the US is held by the richest 5% of the people



when it's legal, but not ethical

Legal and ethical are the same in my book.
You are an idiot


no distribution to workers beyond salary

When you take a job it is up to you to negotiate your benefits and wages.

Example. Sticky notes were created by 3m, the actually designer only received a small bonus.

That's fair, he chose that job knowing the benefits and consequences
Product development is VERY expensive, most people cannot afford and therefor do not have the opportunity to develop and idea without being exploited by a big company. It takes allot of money to bring a product to market like that, most people don't access to that kind of cash.

gained from controversy (race baiting, creationism textbooks, abortion clinics)

If they can sell it, fine. It is your right in the US to make money.

religious groups

No, religion is not a corporation. Unless they pay taxes like a corporation they should never see substantial profit.
.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
Profit encourages people to work harder.

That's great and all, but working harder for who?? For themselves, for their family, for future end customers, for dividend holders?? Take some mental notes and see if the people encouraging others to work harder do indeed work hard themselves. See where the people are who worked hard their whole life and what they sacrificed. Are the investments you made in the market over 10 years really that far ahead??

My point is I don't think working to get rich is worth it, b/c it doesn't always work and by the time you are rich, how much life do you have left- and if you're not born wealthy, you'll never be wealthy. Wealthy people pay rich people. I also don't think the market is meant for average people b/c they rarely come out way ahead. You're better off in municiple bonds or paying off your house. But hey, theres nothing wrong in believing in capitalism, employee empowerment or the tooth fairy.
 

Red Rabbit

Picky Pooper
Jan 27, 2007
2,718
0
Colorado
Legal or not it is WRONG to exploit children, laws do not define morality.


Half the wealth in the US is held by the richest 5% of the people
It is wrong to exploit children. However, like it took time for the United states to learn that during our industrialization, it will take other countries time too.

It would be arrogant of us to tell other country to "grow up".


Yes half the wealth is held by the richest 5% but they pay 60% of all income taxes paid in the united states.
 

Red Rabbit

Picky Pooper
Jan 27, 2007
2,718
0
Colorado
Product development is VERY expensive, most people cannot afford and therefor do not have the opportunity to develop and idea without being exploited by a big company. It takes allot of money to bring a product to market like that, most people don't access to that kind of cash.


So, it's expensive. Should we give every quack with an Idea the resources he needs to develop a product? Come On.

it would cost too much.

That's why people sell their patents.

The guy was an employed by 3m to create marketable items and he did just that.

get a little more realistic or become a communist.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
It is wrong to exploit children. However, like it took time for the United states to learn that during our industrialization, it will take other countries time too.

It would be arrogant of us to tell other country to "grow up".


Yes half the wealth is held by the richest 5% but they pay 60% of all income taxes paid in the united states.
Yes, we have no right to tell other countries whether or not they can exploit kids. BUT it is entirely out business what kind of labor practices AMERICAN corporations have. The fact that it is happening in another country makes it no less wrong, and the fact that the US government allow US corporations to PROFIT (Yes they are doing this to make MORE money) from the exploitation of those children is wrong.

You actually think rich people pay there share in taxes? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Rich people TAKE our tax money, take a look at how well GE is doing right now, take a look at haliburton, or blackwater, there are BILLIONS of tax payer dollars going to huge corporations, and in tern RICH PEOPLE
 

Red Rabbit

Picky Pooper
Jan 27, 2007
2,718
0
Colorado
That's great and all, but working harder for who?? For themselves, for their family, for future end customers, for dividend holders?? Take some mental notes and see if the people encouraging others to work harder do indeed work hard themselves. See where the people are who worked hard their whole life and what they sacrificed. Are the investments you made in the market over 10 years really that far ahead??

My point is I don't think working to get rich is worth it, b/c it doesn't always work and by the time you are rich, how much life do you have left- and if you're not born wealthy, you'll never be wealthy. Wealthy people pay rich people. I also don't think the market is meant for average people b/c they rarely come out way ahead. You're better off in municiple bonds or paying off your house. But hey, theres nothing wrong in believing in capitalism, employee empowerment or the tooth fairy.

I may never be rich, but I will be well off. I will pay my bills and have my toys.

I don't ever need to be rich.

Stop worrying about rich people and worry about yourself.

DON"T EVER BLAME THE RICH FOR YOUR LIFE.

I hold no resentment for those who are rich. More power to them.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
It is wrong to exploit children. However, like it took time for the United states to learn that during our industrialization, it will take other countries time too.

It would be arrogant of us to tell other country to "grow up".


Yes half the wealth is held by the richest 5% but they pay 60% of all income taxes paid in the united states.
Your richest do not pay 7.65% Fica after 89K, they don't pay the same tax rate on divident income as working folk pay on their salary. Hell, most keep their money offshore anyway.

Warren buffet even got rattled by the BUsh cuts because he pays 15% on his dividend paycheck and his secretary pays 28 to 32. Sorry Red Rabbit, I hope you are rich because if not you are very naive.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
So, it's expensive. Should we give every quack with an Idea the resources he needs to develop a product? Come On.

it would cost too much.

That's why people sell their patents.

The guy was an employed by 3m to create marketable items and he did just that.

get a little more realistic or become a communist.
I'm not saying every nut job should get money to launch a product, but I am pointing out the evil in the situation, in that the poor don't have the same opportunity as the rich.

Oh, and I'm a registered socialist. BTW F**K realism, it ends in humanity killing itself off.
 

Red Rabbit

Picky Pooper
Jan 27, 2007
2,718
0
Colorado
how well GE is doing right now, take a look at haliburton, or blackwater, there are BILLIONS of tax payer dollars going to huge corporations, and in tern RICH PEOPLE
My god. How dare they do well? How dare GE create a goverment funded Jet engine that is cleaner, and more full efficanct. How dare they create a new Nuclear power plant that will replace coal ones.

How dare they give money to Haliburton, who supplied most of the bottle water, Trailers, etc. to Katrina victims (through fema)

So what? How does that affect you personally? It's never going to change without going into socialism or communisms.

Stop worrying about the rich. Work hard to live a comfortable life.

BTW you are rich, as am I. We have more money than most people in the world.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
I may never be rich, but I will be well off. I will pay my bills and have my toys.

I don't ever need to be rich.

Stop worrying about rich people and worry about yourself.

DON"T EVER BLAME THE RICH FOR YOUR LIFE.

I hold no resentment for those who are rich. More power to them.
Where did I blame the rich for anything? Where did I complain about my life?? My life is pretty freaking awesome. I even concluded my points for you and you can take them or leave them.

The only thing I blame the rich for, which is really the fault of the law makers (controlled by the FED), is NOT PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE (or the same %) of their taxes. They get richer b/c the working class gets poorer by paying more of the burden. If it was equal, then cool. FYI, I have a few rich relatives, and I do not want to be where they are today.
 

Red Rabbit

Picky Pooper
Jan 27, 2007
2,718
0
Colorado
In 2005, the top 5 percent of income earners, those having an adjusted gross income of $145,000 and higher, paid 60 percent of all federal taxes; in 1999, it was 55 percent. The top 10 percent, earning income over $103,000, paid 70 percent. The top 25 percent, with income of over $62,000, paid 86 percent, and the top 50 percent, earning $31,000 and higher, paid 97 percent of all federal taxes.
What are you talking about? Two seconds of google found me this.

Oh, I wasn't saying you. I meant the collective "Hating on the rich man" Or "they should pay more taxes"

THey shouldn't, leave them alone. People should worry about themselves.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
What are you talking about? Two seconds of google found me this.

You need a statistics class. The mean is not the average. Show me the actual percentage they paid on their income b/c you surely do not believe they paid 60% of their income. The super wealthy control so much money, that yes, 15% of their income equals 60% of all federal taxes. I don't think you comprehend how much money a few individuals have. And are you aware that their vehicles, travel, kids education are usually deducted from their companies?? Reagan took away college tuition deduction, but if you can have your company pay it, it's still deductable.

Let me ask you this question. If we pay 28 to 32% of salary in federal taxes, do you believe wealthy people should pay that percentage as well??
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
My god. How dare they do well? How dare GE create a goverment funded Jet engine that is cleaner, and more full efficanct. How dare they create a new Nuclear power plant that will replace coal ones.
Yes, How dare GE use the media they control to promote a war that the UN has declared illegal. How dare GE make millions in defense money on said war. The war that contributed to record oil prices and the 12 billion in profit that exxon mobile made. Not to mention the fact that after the invasion of Iraq the "Iraqi" government has now made it legal for foreigners to run Iraqi businesses as well as foreign countries to operate virtually tax free. Thus legalizing of US owned companies to extract and sell Iraqi oil, oil thats under THEIR country and should then in theory belong to them

How dare they give money to Haliburton, who supplied most of the bottle water, Trailers, etc. to Katrina victims (through fema)
Yes, HOW DARE haliburton use money for the rebuilding of Iraq to build permanent military bases. Iraq is far worse than it was when sadam was in power religious factions now run a US puppet government in a country whos infistructure is far worse then in 2001
So what? How does that affect you personally? It's never going to change without going into socialism or communisms.

Stop worrying about the rich. Work hard to live a comfortable life.

BTW you are rich, as am I. We have more money than most people in the world.
It effects DIRECTLY in that they are making money that was once MINE, No one has any sort of right to make a PROFIT OF MY TAX MONEY, EVER under any sort of circumstance.

I am aware we are MUCH richer than most of the world, and I am also aware that if rich people are left to control things as they do, they will become RICHER, and for the rich to get richer, they have to make money off of some one, that some one is the poor
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
What are you talking about? Two seconds of google found me this.

Oh, I wasn't saying you. I meant the collective "Hating on the rich man" Or "they should pay more taxes"

THey shouldn't, leave them alone. People should worry about themselves.
I like your points and I was you 10 years ago. This debate stuff is why I love RM.

My points are:
1. Be careful trying to become rich, it might be a lie or cost a lot. Trust the stock market if you dare.
2. The rich should pay their fair share, same percentage, as the working class.
3. You need to watch the legislators and yes, the rich who have lobbyists because the do sneaky things to get out of paying for taxes, liabilities, environment damage and even innocent deaths.

So moral or not moral, it's usually controlled by the same people and even if you dance w/the devil, you may not get the payout.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,033
1
Denver
It is wrong to exploit children. However, like it took time for the United states to learn that during our industrialization, it will take other countries time too.

It would be arrogant of us to tell other country to "grow up".
fock that. wrong is wrong and human rights are a right and it is our responsibility to point out some other country's wrong.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
Yes.

As if there aren't other ways to provide for your family.
as i already provide for my family w/ my weekly paycheck, i'm not making a profit, per se; i'm just making sound investments for comfortable living into retirement. i know about these companies' visions, and they will have a commanding lead in the sectors for decades.

so am i less immoral than mcd, vivid, & kbr because i'm only speculating the stock price will go up, or am i partially to blame by buoying their capital? if so, it would only take a minor stretch that this may be just the angle for saudi-funded terrorism via fueling my vehicle.

i realize my investment choices are far more vast than my selection of non-saudi oil (if even i could make that determination).

so should we now take a moral position on not just how to make money, but how to spend it? i guess that does ring consistent w/ being a good steward & all. the chinese restaurant i got my dinner from last night is pro-china. not just the culture, the gov't too.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
fock that. wrong is wrong and human rights are a right and it is our responsibility to point out some other country's wrong.
while i agree w/ you, how are you going to convince darker parts of the world that women aren't property? comes a point that tilting at windmills amounts to a giant shrug.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,033
1
Denver
while i agree w/ you, how are you going to convince darker parts of the world that women aren't property? comes a point that tilting at windmills amounts to a giant shrug.
diplomacy, economic sanctions, invasion? I'm not saying the answer is easy.

All I know is that ignoring a known widespread human rights abuse in another country is tantamount to knowing your neighbor rapes his kid and saying nothing.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
That's what i said. They pay way more taxes than anybody. While it's not a larger percent, it is a substantially larger amount. I am fine with the amount they pay.
So you pay 28% in federal tax and a guy who makes 52 million off of dividends pays 15%. You are really okay with this??