the dope-smoking hippie "free love and intellectual property rights, man, you're trying to use the US Patent Office to hold us down, woooOOOooooo" is getting a little thick in here. where's Cartman when you need him?
the mrp/e13 battle continues
- Thread starter TWeerts
- Start date
As a wise man pointed out to me: if you abolish IP, big corporations will get the entire pie, not just a piece of it.the dope-smoking hippie "free love and intellectual property rights, man, you're trying to use the US Patent Office to hold us down, woooOOOooooo" is getting a little thick in here. where's Cartman when you need him?
ah, then i guess the other side of that coin is - how broad a point can you put on it? i suppose if i came up with a bit of metal that had a specific snow-flake patern and exact dimensions for each angle and cut-out with a specific size and shape for the plastic bash that mounts to it, then it would be an easy patent to defend. however the specifics would be the limitation. to the contrary, could someone say that any metal thingy attached to the iscg mount that has a hard plastic-like other-thingy mounted to it falls under my umbrella patent for "metal-thingies w/ plastic-thingies attached to it"?
Nope, the patent has to have some purpose. If the shape had a reason (besides asthetic) you could for sure. Say for impact resistance etc. Pretty sure you cannot just patent a shape for the sake of it.
The purpose of the guide, it's mounting system, it's protection system and the materials used (in the case of specific plastic blends or metal alloys) can all be patented in either a single patent to product a specific product, or separate patents to protect a range of products.
This is why patent lawyers exist and cost a fortune. You have to be VERY specific in your patent, which can end up making them very broad as well. It's a strange type of abstract to write.
yeah, i see where you are going. i am in business and i did take business law classes while in school, so i get this. it just seems like there is a point at which we are splitting hairs. without reading the specific patents and/or applications for the patents for each device, it is hard to know who owns what. ultimately it is up to the government official overseeing the application to approve or deny the patent. once you can get the paperwork by that guy, it is a matter of proving that somebody else's product is "similar" enough to fall under you patents umbrella.
however, from a consumer-standpoint, i say let them both go at it and let the best man win. i don't care if the patent covers guards that are semi-circular or curvilinear or right-angled. let the invisible hand of the market decide. edit - even if it just comes down to brand loyalty and/or a fashion show.
There seems to bit of confusion as to what is and isn't patentable, here's a good place to start if you are confused:
A patent is a set of exclusive rights granted by a state to an inventor or his assignee for a fixed period of time in exchange for a disclosure of an invention.
The procedure for granting patents, the requirements placed on the patentee and the extent of the exclusive rights vary widely between countries according to national laws and international agreements. Typically, however, a patent application must include one or more claims defining the invention which must be new, inventive, and useful or industrially applicable. In many countries, certain subject areas are excluded from patents, such as business methods and mental acts. The exclusive right granted to a patentee in most countries is the right to prevent or exclude others from making, using, selling, offering to sell or importing the invention.
The term patent usually refers to a right granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof.
more here: http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent
I'm no expert on patents, but i do know that they aren't just given away. If you own a patent it is for good reason
A patent is a set of exclusive rights granted by a state to an inventor or his assignee for a fixed period of time in exchange for a disclosure of an invention.
The procedure for granting patents, the requirements placed on the patentee and the extent of the exclusive rights vary widely between countries according to national laws and international agreements. Typically, however, a patent application must include one or more claims defining the invention which must be new, inventive, and useful or industrially applicable. In many countries, certain subject areas are excluded from patents, such as business methods and mental acts. The exclusive right granted to a patentee in most countries is the right to prevent or exclude others from making, using, selling, offering to sell or importing the invention.
The term patent usually refers to a right granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof.
more here: http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent
I'm no expert on patents, but i do know that they aren't just given away. If you own a patent it is for good reason
To add on to the subject of IP, companies that produce products (whether it be bike parts, medicine, or even toys) depend on this as their lifeblood to make money. Case in point, I work in the toy industry at Mattel. The security of their IP (even stuff that isn't patented) is super super high priority. I get searched leaving the building every day (and so does everyone else) to ensure that we don't have any IP items. If we do, we need property passes for it to leave the building. Patented or not, companies take IP VERY seriously. For a smaller company like e.13, this is even more important. If a competitor steals, copies, or replicates their item in any form then markets it, this could be disastrous for their sales (and ultimately the future of the company).
Granted, I'm all for the sharing of ideas for the better of everyone, but this is business. Unless you want us to go back to a system of bartering for items with beads and seashells.
Granted, I'm all for the sharing of ideas for the better of everyone, but this is business. Unless you want us to go back to a system of bartering for items with beads and seashells.
Sorry, but the laws are in place to prevent this sort of thing. If i have a great idea but limited resources my innovation would get swallowed up by any larger, more highly capitalized company who chose to 'compete' with me. patent laws are there to protect individuals from just this sort of thing. If said company thinks they can do better, and has vested interest in doing so then they can either buy my patent rights or license the technology from me.
It might seem like a fair game to you, at least when the 2 companies (e13 and MRP) are relatively small but on a more macro level it gives all the advantage to wealthy highly resourceful companies rather than to innovative individuals.
This is business, not some sort of bike indsutry love-in
On an unrelated note: You can trademark colors, shape, etc etc.
Patents are a real murky buissness.
Patents are a real murky buissness.
i'm not saying that it is fair-game, i'm just saying the "frosted-mini-wheats-kid-in-me" just wants to see companies vomit the products out and let the consumers decide. i fully get that if a big fish sees the little fish making money with a product, the big fish will eat the little fish and ingest the product.
Well, you can get a design patent to cover the appearance of something. Sometimes a trademark or copyright can cover that too.
Anyway, to get a utility patent (what we are talking about), the idea needs to be novel and not obvious to those skilled in the art. The disclosure must also be filed within one year of public disclosure for a US Patent and prior to any disclosure for the rest of the world. That's pretty much the requirements. The laywers argue over the novel and non-obvious parts. A utility patent is generally good for 18 years.
The reason why patents are important is to promote innovation. The inventor needs to eat. If after he invents something, another company rips it off and sells it for less then he can't eat. They can sell it for less since they didn't spend money to pay someone to invent it.
Edit: looks like some others pretty much posted the same thing while I was composing. Had someone come to my desk while I was writing
Anyway, to get a utility patent (what we are talking about), the idea needs to be novel and not obvious to those skilled in the art. The disclosure must also be filed within one year of public disclosure for a US Patent and prior to any disclosure for the rest of the world. That's pretty much the requirements. The laywers argue over the novel and non-obvious parts. A utility patent is generally good for 18 years.
The reason why patents are important is to promote innovation. The inventor needs to eat. If after he invents something, another company rips it off and sells it for less then he can't eat. They can sell it for less since they didn't spend money to pay someone to invent it.
Edit: looks like some others pretty much posted the same thing while I was composing. Had someone come to my desk while I was writing
thank you, that's what i was trying to get at in my original post. If 'copying' were allowed it might seriously discourage real innovation. the fact that a certain technology is protected forces anyone in that field to constantly rethink and rework the process to get a competitive advantage. contrary to what many think, the patents actually help to drive further innovation.
...back to the point - where can i get one of these before they are taken off the market?
ISCG 05 was designed by DW, old ISCG mounting was made by mr dirt / tomac if memory server me correctly???The ISCG "industry standard" that was created at e.13 by DW.
I don't know alot about this issue, but ....
Sounds to me like the MRP patent for the guard was filed BEFORE the lg1 was even thought up. It doesn't matter that they didn't actually take a product to market. If that is the case i think its a bit rich of you, general lee, to go slagging off MRP. Who copied who's idea?? Not up to us to decide, if E13 want to pursue MRP then thats up to them.
Im actually surprised ridemoney is letting this thread go the way it has. If i was MRP and e13 i would have this pulled down, too much slander based on rumors going on.
Another great idea.... just like azonic love seats, dual crown forks on hardtails, and double-wides.
Even though it's only the end of March, General Lee gets poster of the year award for correct gramar, critically thought out arguements, and jackassery free content.
Yep, and he is a teacher too, maybe he can tutor you.
P.S. E13 owns
They use robots.
True story.
werd.
One thing I should point out in this statement is that not only was the model T a multi fuel car (meaning it could take several different forms of fuel and still run without modding) but it also got 25 MPG, which is better than 95% of the cars out on the roads in America today....blah blah blah...
Let progression happen and go back to driving your Model T
....blah blah blah...
So according to what you're saying, we should all go back to a better item. Which in this case, does exists, the E-13 guides with a taco.
NOTE: I preffer E-13 guides over any other, and I recommend them to everyone. For as long as they continue to be good to me, I will to them.
so i just read the entire MRP patent just for the heck of it, and while i'm nothing close to resembling an authority on the subject a few things seem really obvious:
The patent is presented in the context of a chainring guard (no mention of a chain retention device whatsoever) for the purpose of protecting chainrings from damage on a standard, front derailleur equipped mtn. bike. It even mentions the possibility of mounting a guard on the opposite side of the bottom bracket and connecting them together to make an even more durable guard; presumably for the purpose of getting over logs or rocks while trail riding. the guard in the patent applied for in '02 and the guard pictured on page 1 here have a strong reseblance.
However, nowhere in the abstract, drawing, or description of the invention is there any mention of this technology being utilized in combination with a chainguide of any sort. It is presented entirely in the context of being used on a triple-chainring bicycle for the purpose of protecting the rings from impact. Why MRP didn't see the possible application as part of a chainguide is beyond me, since with hindsight it seems so obvious. My best guess is since they already had a chainguide on the market (and arguably the best one available at the time) that they felt represented the best execution of a chain retention device there was no sense that the 2 ideas might somehow be combined.
The patent is presented in the context of a chainring guard (no mention of a chain retention device whatsoever) for the purpose of protecting chainrings from damage on a standard, front derailleur equipped mtn. bike. It even mentions the possibility of mounting a guard on the opposite side of the bottom bracket and connecting them together to make an even more durable guard; presumably for the purpose of getting over logs or rocks while trail riding. the guard in the patent applied for in '02 and the guard pictured on page 1 here have a strong reseblance.
However, nowhere in the abstract, drawing, or description of the invention is there any mention of this technology being utilized in combination with a chainguide of any sort. It is presented entirely in the context of being used on a triple-chainring bicycle for the purpose of protecting the rings from impact. Why MRP didn't see the possible application as part of a chainguide is beyond me, since with hindsight it seems so obvious. My best guess is since they already had a chainguide on the market (and arguably the best one available at the time) that they felt represented the best execution of a chain retention device there was no sense that the 2 ideas might somehow be combined.
It's a wonder what beer can do your spelling and grammar skillz.Yep, and he is a teacher too, maybe he can tutor you.
P.S. E13 owns
They use robots.
True story.
jesus I feel like a fool now. I'm going to bed. peace out ridemonkz.