the next generation? enclosed drivetrain, nitrogen dampening and compression?

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Cult Hero, Dec 30, 2007.

  1. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    did a search and nothing came up. Bike built in the UK entirely by a rocket scientist (seriously). Uses a modified nexus for the drivetrain and a "patented 'intelligent' nitrogen rear suspension with superior performance and reliability that will react to any track conditions and automatically provide the optimum compression and rebound damping for every bump." Dirt mag Nov 07.

    The just tested the bike (gen 1) and came away with nothing but praise. Interesting to see where this goes.

    thoughts?









    http://www.mbr.co.uk/news/bike_news/MBR_News__product_news_article_163843.html
     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    9 / 45
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    5,924
    Location:
    north jersey
    sick, how about durability and maintenence
     
  3. FlipSide

    FlipSide Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    13 / 207
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2001
    Messages:
    928
    Still in the development stage...? If it lasts a race run, it's durable enough! :p

    And maintenance? ...why don't we talk about the maintenance of the Fox rear shocks for example?
     
  4. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    9 / 45
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    5,924
    Location:
    north jersey
    i meant the drivetrain, looks complicated.
     
  5. FlipSide

    FlipSide Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    13 / 207
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2001
    Messages:
    928
    Ah...gotcha!

    Since it's based on a Nexus, it should be fairly reliable. IMO, the Nitrogen shock could be more problematic...I was sure you were talking about that!
     
  6. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    well, it is a one off homemade at this point so I would say that there probably has to be some refinement. But..... it is a totally enclosed drivetrain that is externally adjustable. Here are the ten reasons dirt mag listed the bike as technologically advanced:

    1- it is silent
    2- handmade by an engineer with no links to the bike industry using the latest materials. (he is not influenced by conventional thinking)
    3- a modified hub gear that works and is consistent
    4- a fully sealed gear system that is externally adjustable
    5- a sealed self-lubricating and self-adjusting final drive
    6- a 135 mm external width swingarm that is super rigid
    7- a balanced and dishless hand made hub and wheel
    8- has the brake disc and caliper attached to the swingarm
    9- patented 'intelligent' nitrogen rear suspension
    10- shimmed damper adjustment
     
  7. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    don't know if I would consider the other two threads as repost worthy though ;)
     
  8. jvnixon

    jvnixon Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 0
    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,327
    Location:
    SickLines.com
    haha, did you look at them :D
     
  9. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    no I did, but this bike deserves more attention than it is getting. Having rode the nicolai and the honda, Dirt claim this bike beats them both.
     
  10. jvnixon

    jvnixon Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 0
    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,327
    Location:
    SickLines.com
    Apparently you didn't search very hard :busted:

    It is a sweet bike though.
     
  11. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    listen mang, I typed millyard into the search bar and nothing came up. The two threads you showed me are just one page long and just scratch the surface of this bikes innovativeness. If you want to bust my balls about my searching ability move along, if you want to discuss the merits of an enclosed drivetrain, a dishless rear wheel and all the other improvements then lets discuss. Friggin repost police.
     
  12. Biffff

    Biffff Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    914
    This bike is awesome, and DIRT is an awesome mag, but it is my experience that they glorify all things British. For example: The Orange 224 is the best DH bike in the world????? Anything with a Hope badge is Holy. Middleburn cranks are the best? So I wonder if Dirt might be hyping this bike up a just a little.......considering that it is British.
     
  13. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    2,872
    Location:
    The 802
    . . and considering above mention parts kick ass as well. it's generally the users who mess them up. :weee:
     
  14. EVRAC

    EVRAC Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 9
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    756
    Location:
    Port Coquitlam, B.C., Canada
    I've been a fan of this bike for a while. I think this picture shows a 2nd generation version I had only heard rumors of, with a single sided swingarm. One of the very few trigger shifter gb bikes out there.
     
  15. cheetaprowlerDH

    cheetaprowlerDH Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,003
    Location:
    surviving the hell of the living deceased... VIST
    **i want those rotors**

    that bike is insane, i remember hearing somewhere that the builder also handmade the rear shock as well...
    any info on this? it looks awesome, any insight on adjustments, features, tech, or materials?
     
  16. DirtyMike

    DirtyMike Turbo Fluffer

    Rep/Likes:
    54 / 626
    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,840
    Location:
    My own world inside my head
    I was curious about the first picture being different, wasnt sure if it was just the difference between an XC model and a DH model. I do like how much stroke there is on the shock, as we have sen in the recent past and present, longer shock strokes with a less aggresive leverage ration is working better, and allowing the shocks to last longer. Will be cool to see what happen with this bike as time goes on. I really like the totally enclosed drive train, seems like ther is little to no maintanance with that part.
     
  17. ire

    ire Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    6,202
    I still like the dual front brakes that kid's Dad built
     
  18. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    from what I have read, the shock is one of the most revolutionary parts of the bike. Being adaptable to a wide variety of force inputs it is self adjusting to both rebound and compression dampening. The actual internals are patented by some guy who works for the ministry of defense. Created by the government? Ha pretty cool.

    And yes, this is the second gen DH bike.
     
  19. Superdeft

    Superdeft Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    East Coast
    I have the dirt with the article Steve Smith wrote about the first one this guy made, and needless to say he liked it. The second iteration looks promising too. I especially like that he upped the finish quality, and it makes me wonder just how long it takes him to fab up one of these things, and how the hell he has time for a real job?!

    Evidently there are big things going on both with the shock and drivetrain/frame. I can't wait for someone to slap that shock on another frame and evaluate just the shock. I'd also be equally interested in seeing the frame with DHX (it being the de-facto standard damper these days.) This would give us a little better idea of what's going on.

    Stephen (the creator of this miracle machine) is a big sportbike guy, so there's ample motorcycle influence in his design. This is a fresh approach that tends to overbuild on bearings and isn't afraid to make something beefy; more appropriate for DH than taking cues from road cycling. This is sweet proof-of-concept stuff, but someone has got to give this guy a few million to develop and produce these puppies.
     
  20. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    97
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    he has mentioned he doesn't want to do the production and all that. That is not his interest, he likes to solve problems. He wants someone to produce it and market it for him. Time for one of the smaller builders to pony up.
     
  21. cheetaprowlerDH

    cheetaprowlerDH Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,003
    Location:
    surviving the hell of the living deceased... VIST
    .....insane......i want......

    so if it bottoms out, we send troops to take out the section of the trail?

    thats awesome though
     
  22. nvd

    nvd Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Grew up in Jim Thorpe, PA, then in Durango, CO for
    Makes me wonder if we are going to see more suspension with nitrogen charges... seems to be working great for the top tier moto guys, and Avalanche has successfully used it for years.

    Also, I wonder if you could incorporate a linkage design into the suspension considering the gear assembly is still all located on the swingarm.

    I heard rumor of the first generation coming in around 42lbs. Anyone know about the weight of the gen 2 or anything about the geometry?

    Is there a self adjusting 'Lefty' dh fork this guy has been working on to match up to the bike?
     
  23. Transcend

    Transcend My Nuts Are Flat

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    18,062
    Location:
    Towing the party line.
    The MTB industry used it forever. They have recently abandoned it in favour of adjustable pressure systems like the 5th element, DHX etc.
     
  24. nvd

    nvd Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Grew up in Jim Thorpe, PA, then in Durango, CO for
    What mtb shocks have used nitro other than the Avalanche stuff. I remember the use of polyurethene bumpers, springs, air, and oil all gradually progressing over the years of bicycle suspension, but really haven't come across much nitro stuff in my travels.

    I agree being able to change pressure anytime on the trail with a shock pump is nice. Figured that'd be the major complaint with a nitro charge for general production, but what about for top level WC competition bikes with factory race trailers and team mechanics? Doesn't seem like you'd loose any adjustablility, just convienence.

    Any thoughts on the potential pros/cons? I don't know much about nitro other than: I loved my Avalanche back in the day and: all the fast moto guys use it.
     
  25. top_dog

    top_dog Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    209
    Location:
    Australia
    The old faithful Fox Vanilla RC used nitrogen.

    I don't see what the advantage of using Nitrogen is really. All you need is a gas to pressurize the oil.

    But I think the Millyard was using Nitrogen as the damping medium rather than oil. I think....
     
  26. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    -6 / 25
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,522
    Location:
    ACT Australia
    You wouldn't notice any difference between Nitrogen and air. There's much much greater things to talk about here.
     
  27. nvd

    nvd Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Grew up in Jim Thorpe, PA, then in Durango, CO for
    I think the bike is cool, but I'm not too concerned about the nexus hub drivetrain. It seems pretty simple and is something I think will be the route most people end up taking for a legit gearbox setup. Plus, the suspension pivot on that design is way low for a single pivot.

    What really intrigues me, however, is that shock, that's what I want to know about.

    Just figured it was a good time to explore the topic. Now that I think of it, Transition is right, tons of stuff used nitro to pressurize the oil a few years back.

    If there is not much differance between the use of air or nitro, I'm curious as to why this uses compressed nitro instead of a simple air spring, there has to be some explanation. According to the article, this guy has a history with sport bikes, there has to be a reason he chose to use nitro. This is a well thougt out bike, aimed at "solving problems" I just haven't been able to figure out what problem he is solving by using nitro? There has to be something not being seen here.
     
  28. Transcend

    Transcend My Nuts Are Flat

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    18,062
    Location:
    Towing the party line.
    Nitro is usually "dry". No humidity in it means it changes less when subject to heat/pressure (at least as far as it was explained to me ages ago).

    Motos and the like use it as they are subject to far greater cycles of heat and pressure, you simply don't have enough volume in it or weight and forces on it to worry about it with a bike.

    As mentioned, the RC and pretty much every other fox shock before the DHX used nitrogen in the damper. They were factory set and sealed. I believe the new RC still uses it, but not 100% sure of that.

    Edit: The new RC is no longer in production, just a Vanilla R. Can't find any info mentioning the internals.
     
  29. ThePriceSeliger

    ThePriceSeliger Mushhead

    Rep/Likes:
    4 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    4,861
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado
    Is that what made the really cool pppssssshhhhh noise?
     
  30. nvd

    nvd Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Grew up in Jim Thorpe, PA, then in Durango, CO for
    Yeah the Vanilla RC I had on my old Santa Cruz Super 8 had a factory set nitro charge, the avy on my M-1 did aswell, and I'm pretty sure the first 5th Elements did too. That was a momentary lapse of memory. I apologize.

    Anyone have any raw data (Push, etc) on how much a DH shocks internal temperature changes on a typical top to bottom run. Granted this will change depending on the course, rider, bike, shock etc. I'm looking more for science than opinions.

    It does seem like there are advanages to using a 'dry' gas, even if it is unnoticeable. 1 gram is pretty neglegible too, but I know tons of guys who count them and shave each and every one.
     
  31. Transcend

    Transcend My Nuts Are Flat

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    18,062
    Location:
    Towing the party line.
    The 5ths never did, not in production anyways. Their whole spiel was that they had adjustable platform damping via the air bladder.

    The Risse stuff featured a nitro charge, as did the Romic I believe.

    DH shocks heat up a lot (grab the resi of an old Vanilla DH or even an Avy after a run), but the forces acting on the shock are much less than on a moto or race car. The amount of change is negligible and a rider won't be able to tell the difference. It just isn't necessary.

    DH stuff also is run on much shorter cycles (3-5 minutes vs a 20 minute moto or a 40 min motoGP race). All large volume offroad racing suspension is nitro charged as far as I am aware.
     
  32. nvd

    nvd Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Grew up in Jim Thorpe, PA, then in Durango, CO for
    Thanks, I should just pm all my questions to you!! It seems like if we start seeing larger shocks (2:1 leverage ratios) and longer races (megavalanche style) there may actually be something to this.

    Okay, I'll stop prodding and prying for a little while. Thanks everyone for the info.

    However, I will add that a clock can notice a lot of things that I can't, like .01 seconds
     
  33. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    -6 / 25
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,522
    Location:
    ACT Australia
    Bigger shocks will over heat less,as they have a larger volume,and have better heat dispersal from greater surface area,and most likely run lower pressures with the air/Nitro ramping less.
     
  34. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

    Rep/Likes:
    87 / 740
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,638
    That's a rad line, love it.
     
  35. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 12
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,989
    Location:
    Whistler
    I spoke to the Millyard guys (or one of them anyway) at Fort William. My impression was that at least as far as the shock goes, they're pretty well full of it. The guy I spoke to talked all kinds of crap with no backing it up or any kind of technical specifics, saying stuff like "it has an exponential curve" (then not being able to say whether that was the spring rate or the damping). Dirt just suck the cocks of whoever they happen to be talking to that week, and if they're british then all the better. Everything new is the best thing they've ever tried and such a giant leap ahead blah blah, and everything that was going on 5 years ago was a piece of crap and nobody knew how to tune it (see the umpteenth interview with the Mojo guys in Dirt 68, apparently nobody actually had any idea what to do to set up a 5th element, it was entirely guesswork... right.). They just regurgitate what they're told, and the only reason they weren't chowing down on Honda penis IMO was because Honda never told anyone much about their bikes.

    Seriously, there is not a bike mag in existence that puts out fair, objective reviews. As fantastic a mag as Dirt is otherwise, you simply cannot take their product reviews seriously.
     
  36. c2001

    c2001 Paparazzi

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Messages:
    1,093
    Location:
    where everyone is
  37. Biffff

    Biffff Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    914
    We are on the same page it seems.
     
  38. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    2,872
    Location:
    The 802
    would that be the page for the illiterate?
     
  39. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    2,872
    Location:
    The 802
    i read through all the nitrogen shock nostalgia and no one seemed to point out that using nitrogen to pressurize the resevoir is completely different from using nitrogen as the actual spring. to my knowledge, this is not something that has been done by anyone in the bike industry before. If i read it correctly the millyard shock uses nitrogen to control everything; spring, damping, etc . . . certainly seems unique.

    the original application was for use in tank suspension.