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the next generation? enclosed drivetrain, nitrogen dampening and compression?

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Cult Hero, Dec 30, 2007.

  1. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    He stated his opinion, I stated mine, both of which are OPINIONS based on our own observations. You can disagree all you want, but why is it necessary to simply make stupid personal comments?
     

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  2. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    since when is a question suddenly a comment? but maybe you've just answered my original question:cheers:
     
  3. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    True that nobody has mentioned that, false that nobody has used a gas (air) spring or damping before - everyone and their dog has done air springs, and iirc Bionicon uses gas damping. RST used to and I think Cane Creek also did, and it's not exactly a new idea in any sense anyway. Sure, these guys might have come up with a way to combine the spring and the damping or something, and I stand open to being proven wrong, maybe it is the greatest thing since agriculture, but I doubt it based on the kind of vague crap one of the Millyards was telling me. This is my own impression, like I said, maybe that guy just has the same name but did none of the design work, but the fact that they "point out that the three-point linkage is correct in engineering terms" according to dirt really reinforces my belief that they don't actually know what they're on about. Dirt either don't know any better and just regurgitate what they're told, or they just suck up to whoever they're talking to at the time.

    I like how they go "this technology is being used in war zones right now" - next time I put caterpillar tracks on my 25 tonne bike maybe I'll see the relevance, otherwise who cares where else it's being used?
     
  4. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    Are you naturally an absolute dick or have you been practising?

    Not a comment, just a question... :clapping:

    edit: I don't know you or have anything against you personally. Just a polite request - don't be a dick to people just because you disagree with them.
     
  5. ChrisRobin

    ChrisRobin Turbo Monkey

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    Bah, it's ok, he reminds me of Transcend before he became a mod.
     
  6. Transcend

    Transcend My Nuts Are Flat

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    I love you too, man. :beerjam:
     
  7. chriscarleton

    chriscarleton Monkey

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    I feel like years ago i heard the reason nitrogen was used is because it had limited interaction with the oil in shocks (I feel like someone told me it keeps the oil from bubbling or foaming or something like that).

    again, not sure because I seriously think I heard this in like 1996 when I had a fox vanilla r on my foes weasle.
     
  8. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    I guess some people just have a lower sarcasm threshold than others and can't interpret the meaning of smilies :-)biggrin::cheers::happydance::brows::wave:;):p:D for instance).

    That's okay.
    e-hugs all around:cupidarrow:
     
  9. James

    James Carbon Porn Star

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    Yeah, but Fraser is still a dick though, mod or not.
     
  10. top_dog

    top_dog Monkey

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    Yeah but the gas shouldn't be getting anywhere near the oil, so I can't see what the point of the Nitrogen is. Im talking as a pressurizing gas here.

    As a damping medium, wouldn't it act just as oil? You would just have to have smaller orifices to compensate for the viscosity of the dense (compressed) gas?
     
  11. chriscarleton

    chriscarleton Monkey

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    sounds right to me.
     
  12. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

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    what I gathered from the article was the nitrogen was charged to be both compression and rebound control and independently responsive to force changes. The way I read it and I could be waaaay off was a shock that reacted to bump forces with different rebound and compression dampening. I don't know of any shock out there that does that. Granted you can change your end of stroke compression etc but not this way.

    In regards to nitrogen shocks, that is nothing new, like it has been said old vanilla's used nitrogen and the push rebuild on the roco charges the reservoir with nitrogen as opposed to air.

    Several benefits to this that I understand.
    - nitrogen is a larger molecule and therefore doesn't leak like air as quickly.
    - nitrogen is less affected by air pressures (elevation changes etc)
    - nitrogen doesn't heat up as readily.

    All these add up to more consistent and therefore tuneable suspension.

    In regards to the millyard shock, I think it is using all that and more.
     
  13. Heath Sherratt

    Heath Sherratt Turbo Monkey

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    It's a great bike!
     
  14. Biffff

    Biffff Monkey

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    No:beerjam:
     
  15. Lollapalooza

    Lollapalooza Monkey

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    Not to get in the way of anyone's flame war, but I don't understand the reasoning behind the one swingarm. Wouldn't you need to built it up beeftastic so it wouldn't flex? Wouldn't the bike be unbalanced after that?
     
  16. Cave Dweller

    Cave Dweller Monkey

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    It ""looks"" like the swingarm pivots around the bb on massive bearings.

    Its probably easier for them to make it pivot on a bearing on the non-drive side only because its smaller, and cheaper.
     
  17. gemini2k

    gemini2k Turbo Monkey

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    You forgot that nitrogen is dry. Thats probably the biggest reason.
     
  18. nvd

    nvd Monkey

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    So if I'm to get this correct, nitrogen can be used not only for a spring, and to pressurize the oil... but could potentially be used to replace the oil in the compression and rebound controls with legit consistancy and performance?

    That means you could possibly build a nitro shock with no spring and no oil (other than lubrication and seals)? Plus you'd be less prone to seal leakage and pressure changes because the molecule is large and stable? Talk about saving a few grams! If the performance aspect of this could be dialed in, that could be huge.

    It seemed like everyone got all stoked about running the DHX air for full on dh just for a second, and then went back to springs because of inconsistancies in the air spring, not the rest of the shock. i wonder if this would have been cured by simply running a specific gas charge instead of just air.
     
  19. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    Englund brought out a damper cartridge that worked with air a few years back and as others have mentioned the idea is already being used by other manufacturers.

    However, what you say about sealing doesn't make sense. Nitrogen is inevitably going to be harder to seal in than oil.
     
  20. nvd

    nvd Monkey

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    While we are on topic of running weird gasses in bicycles. I always thought it would be sweet to run helium charges in the tubeset and tires to lighten the bike. Probably wouldn't work because of some physics equation that I am unaware of, or it would all leak out, but it would be cool if it worked.

    You might loose a little in the corners because you'd raise your center of gravity, but you could go really really fast because there wouldn't be much friction. And just think of how big you could b b b boooooossssstttt because naturally the bike would just want to go airborne!
     
  21. big-ted

    big-ted Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.

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  22. nvd

    nvd Monkey

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    That was more in referance to the air spring than the dampening. I've gotten tons of air shocks "stuck down" on my short travel from burping the pos/neg air seal, and hear it is a common problem with Boxxer WCs.

    Okay, maybe not tons, more like two or three, and from big impacts, but it's happened.

    Again, that was in comparison to air. As far as oil replacement goes: use a significantly smaller valve/port/hole what ever you call it. As long as the pressure has an easy place to escape and the valve requires less pressure than the seal then I wouldn't imaging you'd blow it.

    I'm making a bunch of this up and not trying to say that it would actually work, but you never know, what if... it might... it might even work nicely...

    Ultimately, I still think helium infused frames, handlebars, rims, cranks, tires, etc. (basically anything hollow) will be the next bicycle revolution!
     
  23. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

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    Start a nitrogen thread.
    Nitrogens characteristics are not revolutionary,nor have they been over looked by designers.
    I think Helium is the opposite and leaks out easier than air due to it's molecular build up.
     
  24. ArthurDH

    ArthurDH Monkey

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    Helium only exists as single atoms... well maybe He2+, but that would be plasma gas
    and yes, its smaller than any of the gases which form air
     
  25. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    nitrogen is a gas, and besides it not having any water in it like air, it wont act and different from air. it will still heat up and it will still react to change in pressures from change in altitude.

    nitrogen is a fluid, its just far less viscous then oil and compressible.

    it can be used as a damping fluid, but i would imagine that it would heat up quite a bit and cause inconsistent damping. unless the dampers takes into account the changing density of the damping fluid.
     
  26. nvd

    nvd Monkey

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    Right, which is why it is "lighter than air"... because it's less dense. That's what whould make it perfect for inflating a bicycle with, because it's "lighter than air"

    My question is if you took a front wheel, weighed it, then replaced the air in the tire with helium, would it weigh less? The mass will stay the same, but what happens to the weight in this scenerio. Which leads me to my real question...

    How much higher could you jump?
     
  27. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    probably no higher than if you shaved your balls. in other words: i doubt it would make any difference at all.

    i think there was a similar thread asking this same question a few years ago.

    edit; found it: http://ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119817&highlight=helium+tube
     
  28. nvd

    nvd Monkey

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    Yeah, I have a strange sense of humor, sorry. Don't take anything I write too literally, besides who's to say my balls aren't shaved already? I did check out the other thread tho just for a laugh. Hydrogen sounds like a fun time, forgot about that one.
    :monkeydance:
     
  29. RaID

    RaID Turbo Monkey

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    im taking this question seriously so appologies

    you wouldnt be able to inflate bike's tubeset given since you would need to seal the tubeset completely:

    a) major pain in ass given
    b) sealing the tubes would add weight
    plus the change in mass would really be negligible

    when comparing the exactly same amount of pure nitrogen and pure oxygen the mass and weight would be greater in the oxygen BUT the number of atoms would be the same
     
  30. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    To add to what Raid said, air is only about 1.18kg per cubic metre. Think of how much air volume you'd actually have in a frame.. probably about 0.2% of that. So even if you evacuated everything, you could only save yourself about 20 grams and that's assuming the sealing of the frame weighs nothing.
     
  31. nvd

    nvd Monkey

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    So how much higher could you jump?
     
  32. EM-EFER

    EM-EFER Monkey

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    3 inches. Depending on the **** you took in the morning.
     
  33. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    easily up to, but not exceeding, fully one half the length of a gnats d*ck.
     
  34. wirly

    wirly Monkey

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    Nitrogen is not a liquid when in a shock, it is a gas (it is only liquid at -320 degrees F or at an outrageously high pressure) Maybe there is a completely novel dampening system for using a gas (ie. air or nitrogen) instead of a liquid (ie. oil), but unless there is, the nitrogen is only used as an air spring or for pressurizing the oil that is the dampening medium.
     
  35. General Lee

    General Lee Turbo Monkey

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    there is, and there has been for some time; tis nothing new. however, all the ones that have been used in the bike industry that i've seen have been pretty low-tech (RST circa 1996 for instance).

    and the proper term is damper/damping. a dampener just gets something wet, and dampening is what is happening to said previously dry something.
     
  36. SteezyWeezy

    SteezyWeezy Turbo Monkey

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    races depend on this info
     
  37. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    You're confusing the terms liquid and fluid - fluid can be a gas or a liquid, liquid and gas are chemical states.
     
  38. Rover Nick

    Rover Nick Monkey

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    While were on the off-topic of crazy ideas, maybe one could add an air valve on the top tube,seat tube and down tube and fill it all with helium, then shave your balls, then take a crap. How well would that work
     
  39. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

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    Would depend on the power of your mind.Better if your scrotum got caught on one of the valves.
     
  40. Cult Hero

    Cult Hero Chimp

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    man, this thread got jacked. Ha