[schwaaa31]

Have they fixed the issue with the faulty master cylinder that gets stuck when warm? A friend of mine is waiting for a warranty replacement, SRAM won't replace both sides until the other side fails as well.

I just went through this. I had my LBS send them back for warranty, only to have SRAM say they were out of the warranty date. I sent SRAM a nicely worded email and my new brakes will be in next week. There shouldn't have been an issue with a known manufacturer defect. I've had them on my DH bike for less than a year. When they were working, I loved them. Hopefully they have the plunger/o-ring issue sorted on the new ones.

 

[Jm_]

So what causes these howling brakes? My set of Juicy 7s(carbons) have never made a sound. My Formula RO didnt make a sound with stock pads, with superstars metallics they scream pretty bad, even when I canged pads and rotors. Got a bit better the times I put in semi-metalic pads. So same bike, same trails, same brake different pads = different result. I have to assume pads are the problem.

Has to do with the natural frequencies of various parts and frequencies that are allowed to propagate and resonate due to this. Common solutions in the automotive world involve weighting the caliper or even the brake pads to dampen the vibration (change the natural frequency so it stops). Probably worse as most parts/frames get lighter and lighter.

 

[Udi]

Back at the shop every now and then Shimano brakes come back after a few weeks with howling brakes. I've tried to clean the pads and rotors as well as sanding both down. Wont go away. Put on fresh sets of both, done. Next!

It's because the Shimano piston seals leak.

See post #143 and #148. Worst when left unridden like ZHendo mentioned.
Fresh pads are a temporary fix at best, the caliper will contaminate the new pads unfortunately.

The solution is a new caliper since Shimano don't sell brake seals, sometimes they'll warranty them but prepared to hear that "they've never heard of it before" even though it's notoriously common.

 

[EVIL JN]

Has to do with the natural frequencies of various parts and frequencies that are allowed to propagate and resonate due to this. Common solutions in the automotive world involve weighting the caliper or even the brake pads to dampen the vibration (change the natural frequency so it stops). Probably worse as most parts/frames get lighter and lighter.

Ok I follow kind of I think. Thanks for the help!

 

[slyfink]

The solution is a new caliper since Shimano don't sell brake seals, sometimes they'll warranty them but prepared to hear that "they've never heard of it before" even though it's notoriously common.

so... is the Magura MT5 caliper a good match for the Shimano M785 levers? I searched through the Frankenbrake thread and found the spreadsheet, but couldn't quite figure out yay or nay. Buying a set of Magura's on Chain Reaction would be cheaper than a set of Hopes to replace my 4 y.o. 785s that I suspect have a leaky caliper.

 

[Sandwich]

would love to know this as well. perhaps even a swap on newish brakes.

perhaps with less throw/movement due to non servo-wave levers, the shimano seals would not wear out as fast. and the maggies would have more power.

 

[StiHacka]

so... is the Magura MT5 caliper a good match for the Shimano M785 levers? I searched through the Frankenbrake thread and found the spreadsheet, but couldn't quite figure out yay or nay. Buying a set of Magura's on Chain Reaction would be cheaper than a set of Hopes to replace my 4 y.o. 785s that I suspect have a leaky caliper.

If you do, make sure to get the Magura hose with the caliper. The hoses are expensive and I have not found a non-OEM banjo that would work with generic or shimano lines.

 

[dump]

Before adventuring into frankenbrake territory, it's worth mentioning that Merlincycles has Hope Brakes for great prices... $149 for an e4: https://www.merlincycles.com/disc-brakes-81175?brand=hope

 

[Udi]

so... is the Magura MT5 caliper a good match for the Shimano M785 levers? I searched through the Frankenbrake thread and found the spreadsheet, but couldn't quite figure out yay or nay.

Nah, get the Hopes even if you have to wait longer. Sounds like dump's got you covered.
It's a far higher quality brake and will pay off in the long term if you plan to use them for a while, especially at the lever end which is definitely the harder thing to get right.

The frankenbrake will be more powerful (and the combo should work) but I don't think it's worth the tradeoff in consistency / durability / reliability from using the Shimano part.

 

[troy]

so... is the Magura MT5 caliper a good match for the Shimano M785 levers? I searched through the Frankenbrake thread and found the spreadsheet, but couldn't quite figure out yay or nay. Buying a set of Magura's on Chain Reaction would be cheaper than a set of Hopes to replace my 4 y.o. 785s that I suspect have a leaky caliper.

I think I've posted in that thread that they do work, and they work great. Friend of mine uses his MT5 calipers with Saint servo levers, and they are simply fantastic. IMHO M785 levers are a bit overkill as it is basically the same stuff as M615 levers, just with a fancy dial and 5x the price tag. Get some cheap shimano servo levers and You are good to go.

 

[Sandwich]

I think I've posted in that thread that they do work, and they work great. Friend of mine uses his MT5 calipers with Saint servo levers, and they are simply fantastic. IMHO M785 levers are a bit overkill as it is basically the same stuff as M615 levers, just with a fancy dial and 5x the price tag. Get some cheap shimano servo levers and You are good to go.

can you ask him which hoses he uses? In other words, if I were to swap my levers, I'm uncertain whether to unplug the lever or caliper.

 

[Sandwich]

Nah, get the Hopes even if you have to wait longer. Sounds like dump's got you covered.
It's a far higher quality brake and will pay off in the long term if you plan to use them for a while, especially at the lever end which is definitely the harder thing to get right.

The frankenbrake will be more powerful (and the combo should work) but I don't think it's worth the tradeoff in consistency / durability / reliability from using the Shimano part.

I wouldn't consider frankebraking unless I already had both sets, which I do. Doing the frankebrake setup in this case may net me a lighter trail brake and a more powerful DH brake, and who doesn't like that?

 

[StiHacka]

can you ask him which hoses he uses? In other words, if I were to swap my levers, I'm uncertain whether to unplug the lever or caliper.

Unplug the lever. You must use Magura hoses/banjos to connect the caliper.

 

[hitar_potar]

Guys, isn't there a frankenbrake-thread already? I started this one to see if anyone heard rumors/saw prototypes/saw pics or something of the next rgavity groups Shimano must be cooking.
I'm all for frankenbrakes as i wonder if my Hayes Stroker Aces would accept Avid Code master cylinders and levers t(or am still waiting on Udi telling me if he still has Hayes Prime MCs with levers ), but the thread is for Saint/Zee of the future.

 

[troy]

Unplug the lever. You must use Magura hoses/banjos to connect the caliper.

THAT.

 

[Gary]

the thread is for Saint/Zee of the future.

sorry to break it to you but...
All you're likely waiting for is:
* A crankset of pretty much the exact same weight. slightly different aesthetics/graphics But a NEW bolt circle patern/standard with a claim that it's a tiny % stiffer/stronger or something else completely imperceivable.
* Brakes everyone will say are the BEST EVAR until 6 months down the line when everyone will then say they SUCK.
* A chain guide no one will run.
* hubs that no one is interested in.
* Shifters, cassettes n mechs with new styling?

 

[StiHacka]

sorry to break it to you but...
All you're likely waiting for is:
* A crankset of pretty much the exact same weight. slightly different aesthetics/graphics But a NEW bolt circle patern/standard with a claim that it's a tiny % stiffer/stronger or something else completely imperceivable.
* Brakes everyone will say are the BEST EVAR until 6 months down the line when everyone will then say they SUCK.
* A chain guide no one will run.
* hubs that no one is interested in.
* Shifters, cassettes n mechs with new styling?

Are you privy to SRAM next year's models?

 

[Udi]

* A crankset of pretty much the exact same weight. slightly different aesthetics/graphics But a NEW bolt circle patern/standard with a claim that it's a tiny % stiffer/stronger or something else completely imperceivable.

Agree 100% with everything you said, and to add insult to injury the new crank graphics look stupid compared to the old ones. I actually own both versions on two bikes too so it's not blind hate.

They used to be such a good company, now all they do is peddle the same junk every year.

 

[6thElement]

You forgot the likelihood that you'll potentially be able to pay more money and get fewer gears than the current Saint.

 

[Dogboy]

Agree 100% with everything you said, and to add insult to injury the new crank graphics look stupid compared to the old ones. I actually own both versions on two bikes too so it's not blind hate.

They used to be such a good company, now all they do is peddle the same junk every year.

I have to disagree. Other than some inconsistencies with the brakes their stuff is still better than anything else. Also the high-end SRAM cassettes are wonderful. But I'll take their shifters, derailleurs, and chains all day.

 

[StiHacka]

Two riders had to cancel their ride today because on their way to the trailhead, their Guides levers seized because of the heat. Both on new bikes. #avidbrakesstillPOS

 

[schwaaa31]

Two riders had to cancel their ride today because on their way to the trailhead, their Guides levers seized because of the heat. Both on new bikes. #avidbrakesstillPOS

I'm getting mine back from warranty tomorrow. Which was more of a pain in the ass than it should have been. At first, they told me no dice, out of warranty. After I told them how I felt about them not standing behind a faulty product in an email and on Facebook, they agreed to send a new set. Here's hoping they addressed the problem in the newer models.

 

[Udi]

I have to disagree. Other than some inconsistencies with the brakes their stuff is still better than anything else. Also the high-end SRAM cassettes are wonderful. But I'll take their shifters, derailleurs, and chains all day.

Fair enough - I'm certainly not partial to either company and run what I believe is the best from both camps (which changes every couple years). I stopped using SRAM brakes because they insist on using plastic lever pistons which do what the previous two posts mention - but that doesn't excuse the separate issues with Shimano brakes, with statistically significant occurence counts.

I love Shimano cranks (superior interface to everything else) and run them on all my bikes, but they have seen zero development since 2008 - so they are lagging behind in the weight game and could be much better.

The derailleurs and shifters took a substantial hit in build quality around the same date and never recovered (anyone who ran M952 back in the day knows) even though the designs/features improved, and having tested the current XT11 back to back with current X01, the shifting performance on SRAM is far superior. For the budget conscious, mating the X01 shifter with cheaper parts elsewhere (eg. GX) still nets superior shifting performance to Shimano - faster, more positive and more consistent shifts. Neither are without flaws when it comes to clutches though, and Shimano's adjustable implementation is better.

The XTR/Dura-ace level chains are as excellent as they ever were, and actually have seen many developments and improvements. The cassettes are great too and I still run the older ones (DA for DH), but in the enduro gear, SRAM's innovations have moved them well ahead especially in weight.

 

[Jm_]

Two riders had to cancel their ride today because on their way to the trailhead, their Guides levers seized because of the heat. Both on new bikes. #avidbrakesstillPOS

I heard they work with 29ers.

 

[Jm_]

Fair enough - I'm certainly not partial to either company and run what I believe is the best from both camps (which changes every couple years). I stopped using SRAM brakes because they insist on using plastic lever pistons which do what the previous two posts mention - but that doesn't excuse the separate issues with Shimano brakes, with statistically significant occurence counts.

I love Shimano cranks (superior interface to everything else) and run them on all my bikes, but they have seen zero development since 2008 - so they are lagging behind in the weight game and could be much better.

The derailleurs and shifters took a substantial hit in build quality around the same date and never recovered (anyone who ran M952 back in the day knows) even though the designs/features improved, and having tested the current XT11 back to back with current X01, the shifting performance on SRAM is far superior. For the budget conscious, mating the X01 shifter with cheaper parts elsewhere (eg. GX) still nets superior shifting performance to Shimano - faster, more positive and more consistent shifts. Neither are without flaws when it comes to clutches though, and Shimano's adjustable implementation is better.

The XTR/Dura-ace level chains are as excellent as they ever were, and actually have seen many developments and improvements. The cassettes are great too and I still run the older ones (DA for DH), but in the enduro gear, SRAM's innovations have moved them well ahead especially in weight.

I agree with most of this, but high end shimano shifting isn't any better than high end SRAM and you'll get riders on both sides claiming that one or the other is smoother, or crisper, etc. I'd say it's in the noise. Both are excellent systems and both shift very well. I have an XT shifter/XTR derailleur on one bike and X1/X01 derailleur on another, there is no winner here.

On the drivetrain side as far as cassettes, yeah SRAM and friends are kicking their ass, with a better interface that allows for lighter cassettes, more range, no scored splines, etc. SRAM has been driving the drivetrains for a few years now and most high end race bikes come with RF Next cranks. I've got some M785s that are still going strong and two sets of M9000s that seem to be doing well. Shimano needs to pull their head out of their ass though and offer piston seals. Until they do, I'll keep using the shimano XTR exchange program. I also abhor the fact that the shimano derailleur doesn't have a tension-release for taking the wheel on/off. As soon as I try to remove the wheel, clutch on or off, it jams my studded tires against the chainstay yoke, scratching it. The little SRAM catch is a nice touch. Due to this, I'm moving the XT/XTR setup over to my RFX and dumbing down the fatbike drivetrain for the summer to 1x10, but I'll eventually put another SRAM derailleur and shifter on, like the X1/X01 setup I have on the other bike.

But here's the real deal IMO: 10 years ago and more, SRAM stuff was a joke. It was NEVER close to the same quality as Shimano. If you wanted reliable stuff, you got shimano. There wasn't any weight advantage and although SRAM was trying to put out complete component sets, there was simply no point to buying them. Today's SRAM is different on so many levels.

 

[kidwoo]

Meh. Dhers ran scram shifters/deraileurs for years because the shifting was crisper with less slack. Given the deraileurs were cheap ass crap but the system was better for moving gears when your eyeballs were rattling and you were going from zero to a million with your legs. I was one of them because I didn't want to have to swing my thumb almost twice as far to down shift with shimano.

Agreed on where we are now though. It blows me a way my scram derailleurs last longer than my saint stuff now.


Horizon™ bro

Horizon™

 

[toodles]

But here's the real deal IMO: 10 years ago and more, SRAM stuff was a joke. It was NEVER close to the same quality as Shimano. If you wanted reliable stuff, you got shimano. There wasn't any weight advantage and although SRAM was trying to put out complete component sets, there was simply no point to buying them. Today's SRAM is different on so many levels.

While overall agree with that post, I'd disagree with that. X.0 Super short 9spd rear mechs were/are the ducks nuts for DH for so long. Fully rebuildable if requried and crisp and solid as anything. I loved those little bastards.

 

[hitar_potar]

sorry to break it to you but...
All you're likely waiting for is:
* A crankset of pretty much the exact same weight. slightly different aesthetics/graphics But a NEW bolt circle patern/standard with a claim that it's a tiny % stiffer/stronger or something else completely imperceivable.
* Brakes everyone will say are the BEST EVAR until 6 months down the line when everyone will then say they SUCK.
* A chain guide no one will run.
* hubs that no one is interested in.
* Shifters, cassettes n mechs with new styling?

Crankset - i don't care about it, used to run Saint 815, upgraded it to 825 just because i found it for super cheap and therefore sold the 815 for super cheap to a friend to help him out.
Brakes - that's the units from Saint i'm interested about mostly. People around me are running Saints and they don't want to hear about anything else. And i like the feel of the new Shimano brakes. Plus, i'm not a fast DHer and sadly, i don't see myself in Whistler for a whole summer in the foreseable future. ;(
Hubs - not interested in them, my Havocs are perfect!
Shifters, cassettes, mechs - i'm perfectly happy with the 820. I plan on keeping the mech/shifter combo as i find the shifter's feel and ergonomics better than Sram's. I run a Sram cassette and when i wear it out, my plan is to get something not so often seen around (and then fine tune it with a laser-cutting machine... ).
I wonder if Shimano will finally introduce a Freeza rotor for a 6-bolt pattern with the next Saint/Zee groups - still wonder why they didn't do it with the 820.

 

[Udi]

I have an XT shifter/XTR derailleur on one bike and X1/X01 derailleur on another, there is no winner here.

But here's the real deal IMO: 10 years ago and more, SRAM stuff was a joke. It was NEVER close to the same quality as Shimano. If you wanted reliable stuff, you got shimano. There wasn't any weight advantage and although SRAM was trying to put out complete component sets, there was simply no point to buying them. Today's SRAM is different on so many levels.

Nah. Re-read my post.
The X01 shifter is the key, and it definitely outperforms current XT (and even XTR) especially after a period of use. Derailleurs don't mean squat in shifting quality, it's all in the shifter - and your X1 is where it begins to drop off - which is why I suggested an X01 shifter with a GX derailleur is a brilliant budget setup. Manufacturers always do the opposite on complete bike builds because most muppets judge drivetrains based on the derailleur.

Same story 10 years ago, *most* SRAM stuff was a joke, but the top of the line had excellent shift quality and durability (as toodles points out). I used to think what you did when he bought the XO 9spd stuff for his DH bike back in about 2005, based on all the X9/X7 failures (and the horrid feeling X9 shifters). In 2010 his mech/shifter was still going (and still felt better than every Shimano setup I owned), I chalked it up to him being a smooth rider. It didn't quite get to a decade before I decided I was wrong - especially after a bunch of fast riders I respected had started stockpiling the 9sp XO.

He finally retired his derailleur after 10 years from memory (finally played out but not broken), to replace it with the same thing.

But I mean he's no Cat3 XC racer, only a DH racer and occasional park rat, so maybe we have no idea.

 

[Sandwich]

All I know is that I can't wait for the new saint front derailleur to come out. I head it's electronic and dual pivot swing, so it's gonna be the best. I can't wait to pair it with my 3x 98mm crankset.

 

[jonKranked]

Not a full grouppo, but Saint SPD pedals.


http://m.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/Shimano-Announces-New-Gravity-and-All-Mountain-Footwear-and-Pedals,1649

 

[slimshady]

Not a full grouppo, but Saint SPD pedals.


http://m.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/Shimano-Announces-New-Gravity-and-All-Mountain-Footwear-and-Pedals,1649

No tilting platform, no care.

 

[troy]

160 USD for 550g pedals. What is the advantage over the old ones? Seals last longer than 2 rides? They do not develop some weird play which is impossible to get rid of? I paid for mine something like 50$ (brand new) so for that price they are great, but paying 3x that much for probably no improvement is kinda ridiculous. I think that the pin design on the prvious ones was great, yet they changed it for the top model to some stupid shit allen key type pins, that are impossible to remove after a single ride. WTF Shimano?

 

[hitar_potar]

Aren't these GR-500s just the old Saint platforms with new paint?
Never been a fan of the Shimano pedals, i'm not now as well. Of course noone will pay 160 bucks for a pair, probably it will be around 100. But then again, i don't see any advantages over a Race Face Atlas pedal or a Spank Spike...
Also, that's like dust in the eyes. WHERE THE HELL IS THE NEW COMPLETE GROUPO, SHIMANO???

 

[troy]

Aren't these GR-500s just the old Saint platforms with new paint?

Yes they are but for 60% more $...

 

[hitar_potar]

Haha, perfect!
I didn't see what was better in these now "old" Saint pedals than my Tioga MX Pro ones, and i still don't see what's better in the new ones.
As for the shoes - they look nice, but i'm a 5.10 fan for life!!!

 

[Gary]

er... Nope!

 

[toodles]

No tilting platform, no care.

No sealed bearings, no care.

Sounds like they've not really addressed the play issue the old Saints suffered from. I'll try the new OneUp pedals instead.

 

[jstuhlman]

i'll just replace the pins in my 8 year old, $75 new, kona wah wahs that won't die

 

[Flo33]

i'll just replace the pins in my 8 year old, $75 new, kona wah wahs that won't die

Have the same ones, still going strong. Good investment.