[szacsi72]

@Udi you know nothing YET!

• The Shiver is an incredibly heavy and flexy fork and should probably be left in the past where it belongs if you want a fast bike, but I do admit it's still kinda cool.
  
  What if i tell you mine is estimated to be 2.8kg's, and it will have a 3d printed flex-uni-guard-whatever?
  Well honestly I will change pretty much everything, but non-the-less it will still be a shiver.

 

[Gary]

Ahhh..... Marzocchi Shivers... I do miss my front wheel going an entirely different direction to my stem

[/Nostalgia - not what it used to be is it?]

 

[hitar_potar]

@Udi - thanx for your input, i respect it. However i am not giving global recommendations aboout shock or tyre choices. EXO tyres do work for me, however i am an ordinary weekend warrior. I have ridden on serious rocky courses following a friend of mine who was on 2-ply tyres. He flatted his rear one severely right in front of me, half a second later i went through the same line as him and had no problem with my EXO (gotta be honest - he usually was faster than me, but at the very moment i was trying to stay with him and was managing to do so by letting loose on the brakes and making poor line choices, including going through anything at any cost - kinda stupid, but got out of it with no damage ). Also, at that moment i was around 20-25kg heavier than him. Like i said, i don't like riding my tyres with less than 2 bars - and he was with less than 1.5 bars. Regarding shock choice, to each their own - i like the feel of my air shock, can only compare it to a coil Vivid, and in my eyes, the air shock wins for me. However, my opinion is exactly this - MINE. Others believe in the power of the coil, which is fine. When someone asks about shock choice for a Sunday, i never recommend the air - i just share my expirience and that's the end of it. For me being able to change air pressiure accordingly to my changing weight and saving probably between 400-500g from the complete weight of the bike overrules completely any minor performance gains a coil RC4 might bring with itself (for a signifficant cost cause people are crazy about Fox and don't let them for free ). As far as cutting the link to fit an X2 - yeah, i'm on the same side here- think it's too much and would never do it to my frame. Might be OK for someone, but i would also recommend against it.

 

[Udi]

Yeah @hitar_potar certainly not having a go at you, and I totally respect that it works for you (after all everyone is riding different terrain/styles and can make different optimisations, it's part of the fun) - I just know a lot of lurkers read this thread wondering "what's best at the moment" so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents as general clarification.

Certainly not saying anyone else's setup is wrong (although I wouldn't cut the link like that), just wanted to provide some baseline information that'll work for everyone as a good starting point.

A lot of development have happened since these frames came out, so I feel every few years the potential of the Sunday increases as a result, it's very cool to see. I wish I had the time and resources to build another one and showcase what it could be in 2016.

What if i tell you mine is estimated to be 2.8kg's, and it will have a 3d printed flex-uni-guard-whatever? Well honestly I will change pretty much everything, but non-the-less it will still be a shiver.

Sounds like fun. Not my cup of tea though.
My coil converted '16 40 is around that weight and would be substantially stiffer - the invert design is just doomed from the get go in terms of torsional stiffness (as Gary correctly suggests) and it becomes a problem when trying to hold a line in rough terrain. Those torsion arches don't help a lot in my experience, and the DVO invert (for example) is a pretty poor fork all round unfortunately - at least from the ones I've ridden, which is a fair few now. I think a Shiver would be better in some respects, at least it's still coil sprung. If I had to clean up a marzocchi chassis I'd probably pick an 888 or 380 myself. But again, to each their own, and your project sounds interesting.

 

[TrumbullHucker]

Cutouts..

Drive side singlespeed set up...

View attachment 122936

They're nowhere near a professionally cut out job but not too bad for an old blind part time achoholic

View attachment 122937

Sugru, MOAR 3M lock-block (velcro) attached to a homemade 3mm thick soundproofing rubber strip are attatched now curing before tomorrows ride.

View attachment 122938

The rubber sheet protector is removable... so easily replaced/modified to taste if required.

That spring in it's natural habitat...

View attachment 122939

fukking love sundays.. those cutouts make it look mint!

 

[Sandwich]

@Udi, do you prefer the non-boost small shaft RC4 to the "boost valve" shocks? just curious as I was under the impression that you lose some damping effects with the air assist by switching from boost to non BV, and that seems like they would pair well with the end stroke of the sunday.

 

[Udi]

@Udi, do you prefer the non-boost small shaft RC4 to the "boost valve" shocks? just curious as I was under the impression that you lose some damping effects with the air assist by switching from boost to non BV, and that seems like they would pair well with the end stroke of the sunday.

Good question, I've only given the recommendation but never explained why.
In general yes I prefer the SS RC4 w/ no BV, stock config for 2015. In the Sunday it's less clear-cut, but my answer is still the same.

For the Sunday specifically, it's mainly to do with the leverage curve - when we measured my personal frame we found the end stroke digression was much smaller than the published linkage graphs showed, with the frame actually staying between 2.55 and 2.6 as dw originally claimed (and many didn't believe, based on the incorrect graphs floating around). So as a starting point, we don't have *much* of a problem to fix at EOS. The fat shaft also generates a higher breakaway force due to the same minimum air pressure acting on a larger cross sectional shaft area (as well as the increased seal/bushing friction) so it's not the most ideal coil shock, and the Sunday doesn't have a high enough intial leverage value to counteract that large breakway force properly. In fact most modern frames don't. So the beginning stroke performance of the small shaft is superior (in the Sunday, and many other DH frames) and will provide a more optimal wheel rate, resulting in better bump absorption + traction and reduced force transmission.

The boost valve is not hugely needed given the EOS leverage correction noted above, although it probably would be somewhat beneficial on this frame (probably more for a faster rider, and ideally combined with the small-shaft shock and re-tuned to work, rather than the fat-shaft). Now the reason I think most people may be better off without it is - the Sunday isn't a very poppy bike, and position-sensitive compression damping means you're dissipating some kinetic energy into heat energy that you'd otherwise be storing as elastic potential energy. As a result, you get less pop on a bike that could do with a bit more.

So basically, I think the superior early stroke performance of the small-shaft RC4 is preferable for bump absorption performance, and the fact that it no longer has a boost valve is preferable for jumping performance. For a Sunday owner who desires more bottom out resistance I'd consider customised setups (with or without BV depending on rider needs - eg. for a rider great at jumping naturally, the ultimate setup would probably be a small-shaft with BV added and retuned). That's getting into heavy optimisation though, most people would be happy with the stock SS RC4 and volume adjuster closed. NB. the most advanced iteration of this frame and arguably its best performance (Hill's 2008 championship model) was without a position sensitive shock, so it's not of critical importance.

As a sidenote, the fat-shaft RC4 definitely does have a place, and that's usually in frames that have excessive leverage at the start of the stroke and tend to waste / blow through a portion of the initial travel. In this case the higher initial forces can neutralise some of these ill-effects, while eliminating the stiction increase you'd get trying to solve the same problem with an air shock (and also allowing a gentler ending stroke with BV removal if needed). This is not the Sunday, but in frames like the DW-DHR and Evil Undead (also the YT Tues!) the fat shaft allows some handy optimisations.

Just so there's a useful conclusion, shocks I'd recommend (in 2016) for the Sunday:

1. Fox RC4, small-shaft (12.7mm) 2015
2. XFusion HLR Coil (have not tried personally but meets the criteria)
3. Fox RC4, fat-shaft (15.875mm) 2013-2014

Plenty of other options exist (including air shocks) but they all exist further down my list.

 

[Sandwich]

I figured you'd have some reasonable explanation.

 

[szacsi72]

Yeah @hitar_potar certainly not having a go at you, and I totally respect that it works for you (after all everyone is riding different terrain/styles and can make different optimisations, it's part of the fun) - I just know a lot of lurkers read this thread wondering "what's best at the moment" so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents as general clarification.

Certainly not saying anyone else's setup is wrong (although I wouldn't cut the link like that), just wanted to provide some baseline information that'll work for everyone as a good starting point.

A lot of development have happened since these frames came out, so I feel every few years the potential of the Sunday increases as a result, it's very cool to see. I wish I had the time and resources to build another one and showcase what it could be in 2016.


Sounds like fun. Not my cup of tea though.
My coil converted '16 40 is around that weight and would be substantially stiffer - the invert design is just doomed from the get go in terms of torsional stiffness (as Gary correctly suggests) and it becomes a problem when trying to hold a line in rough terrain. Those torsion arches don't help a lot in my experience, and the DVO invert (for example) is a pretty poor fork all round unfortunately - at least from the ones I've ridden, which is a fair few now. I think a Shiver would be better in some respects, at least it's still coil sprung. If I had to clean up a marzocchi chassis I'd probably pick an 888 or 380 myself. But again, to each their own, and your project sounds interesting.

I personally dislike the DVO, but hey! You can also see my project as an experiment to make stiffer forks, just as fox did! (They used an usv fork to develop axles)

Also my friend (who is here, I SEE YOU JAKUB) has an Elka stage 5 did you ever try that shock? Looks well built, its elka afterall

 

[saruti]

I used the ELKA stage 5 on my sunday for few days.
it was real good. but, was bottoming too easy.

 

[Jm_]

I have a LS RC4, Craig at Avy said this can work just fine on many frames with the boost valve removed, but he mentioned that in the 2.75 to 3" guise, he couldn't get the damping rates needed for the suspension curve of the bikes that used it. For that he said he "offers" a conversion, but it's costly. Said something about it moving way too much oil or something to that extent, if I remember correctly.

 

[sundaydoug]

I'd just like to point out that this thread is now 10 years old. Long live the Sunday!

 

[jhmckean563h]

So, wondering if people could help me out with a mystery here. Last spring, I acquired an 07 or 08 Sunday, size large, in espresso brown and have been building it up piecemeal from my spare DH parts.

I've got it in rolling chassis form at the moment with a -1.5 angleset, Shiver dual crown, and 26" wheels as God intended. Threw a measuring tape on there last night and I'm seeing a 48.675" (1236mm) wheelbase with like a 62* head angle?!?! Every geo chart I've ever looked at quotes the large frame as 46.5" with a 65 degree headangle. This makes the numbers I'm seeing very strange, as there is no way that the angleset could have dropped 3* and added over 2" to the wheelbase...

Chainstays measure the stock 17.25" and BB was about 13.75; I also had my wife read the tape measure to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.

Thoughts?

 

[bengxe]

Those numbers suggest that you have a very tall fork.

 

[jhmckean563h]

Those numbers suggest that you have a very tall fork.

23.5 axle to crown, 7.6 inch travel Shiver DC...

 

[bengxe]

Well that's a big chunk of your difference. Most modern 8" forks are around 22.5" minimum, and that's what the sunday geo charts would've been based on.

 

[Gary]

Thoughts?

Do you have your stanchions dropped right down into the top crown?
and are you using the taller Shiver crown?
I don't remember my old Shiver being a significantly tall fork even with the tall top crown. (I had both).
Sunday GEO figures are generally measured with a Boxxer.
Remember your Shiver has a larger axle off set than a Boxxer so that combined with an inch longer A-C will possibly slacken it by somewhere around a degree and increase wheelbase by maybe half an inch added to whatever your angle headset increases it by.
Does this go someway to explaining it?

 

[hitar_potar]

Hmmm, 1236mm wheelbase on a size LARGE with a 1.5-angleset.... not a bad result - it sure is long and would be stable at speed.
I'm on a size MEDIUM with a 36mm-stantion Dorado upped at its max, a -3.0 angleset and my measures are a 340mm BB height, around 1180-1185mm wheelbase and between 61 and 62 HA. And i feel it perfectly stable and a perfect size for my height of 5'7.

 

[Udi]

Hey guys, I just picked up an 05 Sunday World Cup and am not quite happy with the 5th coil in the rear. What shock measurements am I looking for and what fits in the damned tight frame without modification/hacking? Thanks for any help

Your best bet if you don't want to modify the frame is probably sending the 5th to Avalanche for them to rebuild and modify. They replace virtually all the internals with their own and it should feel great afterwards, cost is $179.

Avalanche Racing 5th Element SSV conversion

PDF detailing internal upgrades

 

[hitar_potar]

Regrettably, i'm selling my trusty Horse together with forks, DM-stem and crankset. Can do a combo price!
http://www.pinkbike.com/u/hitarpotar/buysell/

 

[Sebastian Espinosa]

Hi guys, I am new to the forum
So I am planning on buying a 2008 Sunday, but I am iffy about the size. Frame is a large and I am 5'7, will this be too uncomfortable for me? too big? I currently ride a 18" (medium) rocky mountain RMX and it feels just fine. I just don't know if the Sunday will be too big for me.

Thanks on any info!

Sebastian

 

[Sandwich]

Yes, probably. I was 5'11" on a medium Sunday and then a large yakuza. I liked the large better, but with a shorter stem.

You probably want a medium or even a small.

 

[Gary]

HFrame is a large and I am 5'7, will this be too uncomfortable for me? too big? I currently ride a 18" (medium) rocky mountain RMX and it feels just fine. I just don't know if the Sunday will be too big for me.

The anwser to this depends on your riding style, where/what you plan on riding with it and personal preference. Having said that I'd be very surprised if a Large Sunday was the right size for you.

Bear in mind Medium and Small 08 Sundays both had 17" seat-tubes (measured). Only the length changed between them. not that you can slam the saddle without the rear tyre contacting it at full compression.

 

[Sebastian Espinosa]

The anwser to this depends on your riding style, where/what you plan on riding with it and personal preference. Having said that I'd be very surprised if a Large Sunday was the right size for you.

Bear in mind Medium and Small 08 Sundays both had 17" seat-tubes (measured). Only the length changed between them. not that you can slam the saddle without the rear tyre contacting it at full compression.

Thanks guys, I would probably be doing a lot of pedalling. Where I am from it is fairly flat so the trails require a fairly amount of pedalling. It's just such a good deal on it and I have always wanted a Sunday, because I really want to upgrade from my rmx.

 

[hitar_potar]

Small was 16', Medium was 17'. You could see the difference with your bare eye. Mine is Medium, got a -3 angleset which shortens the cockpit byseveral mm, but it'sthe perfect fit for me at 5'7'. Tried a Large of a friend of mine- ridiculously long and very high for me. But then again, a M Demo 2012 is also longish for me (although not as long as the L Sunday).

 

[bengxe]

There's a lot of personal preference involved in frame sizing. I'm 5'9" and I rode a large sunday for a long time. I eventually realized I wanted an even longer bike, now I'm on a large demo. I imagine I'd be pretty happy on a large sunday if I were 5'7".
Compared to modern bikes, the large sunday fits more like a medium.

 

[bengxe]

Small was 16', Medium was 17'. You could see the difference with your bare eye. Mine is Medium, got a -3 angleset which shortens the cockpit byseveral mm, but it'sthe perfect fit for me at 5'7'. Tried a Large of a friend of mine- ridiculously long and very high for me. But then again, a M Demo 2012 is also longish for me (although not as long as the L Sunday).

Assuming you're talking about the reach measurement, the medium demo is a good deal longer than a large sunday.

 

[Gary]

Small was 16', Medium was 17'

You know ' means FEET?

The late 08 (non-US) frames both measured 17" I don't know why they changed them but they did.
I have one right here and it's definitely a Small. Definitely 17".

 

[hitar_potar]

Assuming you're talking about the reach measurement, the medium demo is a good deal longer than a large sunday.

Not sure, to tell you the truth. Trying the large Sunday was several years ago, i only remember it very long and very hgh (well, normal if you consider it's 19" high ).The height was a major problem for me. The M Demo i only remember as very long, but not so high, which is also normal since it's a newer frame and they stopped making large DH-frames high years ago - that's why i probably felt the Demo shorter than the L Sunday. But both wouldn't have been my choice for a 5'7' person. I'm not fond of the Forward Geometry thingy and all the fuss about long bikes.
@Gary - don't know about latee 08 frames, but a friend's pre-08 was a little lower than my pre-08 M. Never measured it with tools, but it looked like around an inch of a difference. Don't know why IH would make the S higher.... :?

 

[Gary]

@hitar_potar Yea. I know. I had friends with every year Sunday. all the pre'08s had 17" (M). 16" (S) seattubes.Two of us had 08 smalls and they both had 17" seat tubes exactly the same welding as our friends' Mediums). Mine was bought in Germany.. .my friends in the UK. I'm guessing it was just a cost saving decision at the factory.
Like I said though. You can't slam the saddle on either frame without the tyre buzzing it so it doesn't really matter. The only reason I mentioned it was to warn anyone looking to buy a '08 small/medium and sizing it by seat tube measurement.

 

[hitar_potar]

Ok, time to send this thread in 2017!
Happy new year, Sunday-riders! Have any of you seen already the bonkers red Sunday 650b that's on the Iron Horse fan page in Facebook? Custom rear triangle in order to accomodate the bigger whee (i think). What's your thoughts?

 

[slimshady]

Ok, time to send this thread in 2017!
Happy new year, Sunday-riders! Have any of you seen already the bonkers red Sunday 650b that's on the Iron Horse fan page in Facebook? Custom rear triangle in order to accomodate the bigger whee (i think). What's your thoughts?

A friend passed me the info. Geo wise it seems to be OK, but I'd like to hear from the more experienced users in this thread

 

[hitar_potar]

And i'd like to hear some details on this rear triangle from mr. Lukas Ziegler himself, as well as if he would be interested in producing another one.

 

[saruti]

why do you think its 27.5? it looks like 26er

 

[Udi]

Custom rear triangle. The stays use custom tubing.
It looks like it re-uses some of the factory forged / machined yokes with slight modification, quite cool and it looks like a very neat job.

However it looks like tire clearance has been heavily compromised (probably to stop the CS getting too long), and I'd still want to see CS length and BB height numbers before getting too excited. I think mud clearance, along with the CS and BB values will be the deciding factors for whether it'll actually work well or not.

There are a lot of frames better than the Sunday now (it's been 12 years) and both kinematics and geometry have progressed a lot since 2005, I think it's important to be realistic. Definitely a cool project though.

 

[Muddy]

Custom rear triangle. The stays use custom tubing.
It looks like it re-uses some of the factory forged / machined yokes with slight modification, quite cool and it looks like a very neat job.

However it looks like tire clearance has been heavily compromised (probably to stop the CS getting too long), and I'd still want to see CS length and BB height numbers before getting too excited. I think mud clearance, along with the CS and BB values will be the deciding factors for whether it'll actually work well or not.

There are a lot of frames better than the Sunday now (it's been 12 years) and both kinematics and geometry have progressed a lot since 2005, I think it's important to be realistic. Definitely a cool project though.

My 6POINT8 still has a date to honor with FTW; Frank spoke with me as to his getting the product and what I receive after his work and I am still interested. Totally intending a continuation of this as a once-flagship bike, nothing more.

Works Components provided enough stable geometry to lessen the immediate need for altering the bike's numbers, really want FTW to produce the downtube gusset and square'd to round downtube in the process - still with 26" wheels however.

This Sunday looks good from still pictures; a tire-to-seat tube interference like Udi mentions has to be the limiting factor to it being practical at all.

 

[Jorge]

Marzocchi moto c2r ????

 

[hitar_potar]

However it looks like tire clearance has been heavily compromised (probably to stop the CS getting too long), and I'd still want to see CS length and BB height numbers before getting too excited. I think mud clearance, along with the CS and BB values will be the deciding factors for whether it'll actually work well or not.

There are a lot of frames better than the Sunday now (it's been 12 years) and both kinematics and geometry have progressed a lot since 2005, I think it's important to be realistic. Definitely a cool project though.

Why do you think tire clearance is compromised? Looks normal to me, may be as normal as tire clearance with an original rear triangle. Also, is CS length gonna be so extreme if lengthened several mm? I find mine quite OK and wouldn't mind it a little longer. BB on the Sunday is low, at least on mine - 340mm with a max-raised Dorado Pro and -3 angleset, and i quite like it. Going to something like 350mm won't be much of a problem, i guess.
Also, you're right, lots of newer and better frames are out now, with better kinematiks, better weight. But none of them have the persona of the Sunday, none are so perfect in my eyes. Or if one of them is, it's like a crazy 4-digit price for a frameset. I personally, as a not-so-good weekend warrior, am quite happy with the performance of my Sunday's suspension. If there's a possibility to go 650b on a Sunday without compromising tire clearance, i'd hop on that opportunity at the very moment!

 

[Gary]

lots of newer and better frames are out now

No. No there aren't.

If there's a possibility to go 650b on a Sunday without compromising tire clearance, i'd hop on that opportunity at the very moment!

Yeeeewww.. No. Don't.. Sundays aren't and never were about steamrolling or stability.. they're about getting wild and hanging on for the ride of your life... a ride no 650b tyre can deliver!

 

[hitar_potar]

What do you meanabout the 650b tire?
Also, who said that if i go 650b on the Sunday, i would throw away the 26'-rear triangle? Not me! I'd put it in storage for possible re-use if i don't like the 650b.
I find my Sunday quite stable and when riding it hard, i'm always just hanging on for a very special ride. Newer frames are crazy good, but crazy could also be used about their prices as well. And there are just too many more important things in life to spend money on than to just upgrade a DH-frame.
Anyone know who the owner of the 650b-triangle is? How can we contact him?