The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by S.K.C., Oct 17, 2006.

  1. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    I wouldn't have bothered "correcting" the Sunday either, but that's a very dedicated project and I respect the effort!
    Very cool and nicely done.


    Hugely
    improved them.
    I took the time to try both wheel sizes back to back on the exact same frame while resetting geometry to keep all other factors consistent (or as consistent as possible) before making the switch. Tested over a mixture of bikepark runs (not a single track, not just a few runs, not just a few days - extended periods of time on both setups back to back). I don't think anyone else here has done that except buckoW.

    I have nothing to sell, so the experiment was purely for me to decide which was better and which I'd keep running. My conclusion was that 650b made most riding less painful and more enjoyable, on top of being flat out faster.

    With that said, I also like rubber compounds that grip, so my opinion may be worthless. :D
     
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  2. mykel

    mykel Turbo Monkey

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    @Udi

    I have put a 27.5 front wheel on my big bike after my last 26"one sent me out the front door for taco's.
    I noticed a nice big difference, especially when it came to chunder, allowing me to carry more speed and in places where I used to slow, now maintain speed. With the brain issues, this is a huge asset to me to smooth things out when on rougher trails.

    The question now is - how much more of a difference would going to 27.5 F&R make over my current bi-polar setup? Thoughts?
     
  3. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    @mykel

    Good question, my experience was that the 27.5 made a much bigger improvement on the front than the rear. I tried it on the front alone before trying it both ends. I really liked that combination, and my only minor complaint was there was a small F/R traction difference at the limit (in favour of the front). Obviously it's hard to correct the BB height unless you have a frame that's specifically designed to use both wheel sizes (even if there is enough clearance) and I do think geometry is first priority.

    With that said, I think the difference at the front may be more perceivable to humans (because hands/arms are weaker than legs), whereas when it comes to actual force transfer to the body (and in your case brain), the rear probably has as much if not potentially more influence.

    If bump forces are restricting what you can ride (and budget allows), I think you'd appreciate 27.5 both ends. Beyond that, I also don't think it's crazy to consider the option of 29F / 27.5R, and as a sidenote it's worth noting that regular 27.5 Fox40 lowers will fit a 29 wheel also. Obviously you do take a hit in tighter corners as wheel sizes go up, but as I'm sure you noticed, you get used to that pretty quickly while the other benefits remain. This may not be useful for now, but it's probably good to keep in mind for the future (if the mind is still willing but the body not quite).

    By the same token, I think your current setup is pretty good, and my experience was identical to yours.
     
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  4. Mo(n)arch

    Mo(n)arch Turbo Monkey

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    I didn‘t mean lizard wheels but a frame size that is not made for midgets (190cm myself, so I know a thing or two about too small DH-frames), aswell as a headangle that got corrected about 1,5-2degrees from pretty much every owner.
    Regarding 650b, see Udi‘s posts.
     
  5. Jorge

    Jorge Chimp

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    the rear swingarm of 2006 is compatible with 2009? ... I have in mind to try to pass to 650v
     
  6. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    Not so much worthless Udi. More irrelivent. To me at least anyway. (still interesting though)
    No. You're not the only one here to have extensively "tested" 27.5 vs 26 back to back. Your reasons were just different from mine. Just as my findings were different from yours. but no less conclusive.
    Firstly I don't ever suffer from pain on 26. Maybe because I often ride DH/Enduro trails on a 100mm DJ hardtail with very stiff fork and high tyre pressures. Maybe just because i'm not a whinger. Either way I have no need to search for an improvement in respect of comfort.
    Secondly I don't ever complain about lack of traction. I just (try to) ride to the limit of traction I have available at any time. (as do you if you think about it).
    And thirdly I have no need to know which size wheel is faster. I don't race (or even STRAVA). So timing has zero influence on my enjoyment of riding a bicycle.
    Anyway. As I was saying. I have also spent many many hours riding 27.5 and 26 back to back, same frames swapping wheelsizes, same models in different wheel sizes, and many many bikes with different sizes. I actually can't help comparing every bike I ever ride. And I ride a lot of bikes. I am also in the strange situation of actually having to ride a 27.5 bike a good few hours per week (teaching/coaching/guiding for work) so very very used to riding that size wheels.
    My conclusion based on nothing more than my own experience of riding both is that I simply don't like 27.5.
    In particular I prefer how a 26" front wheel feels when changing direction.
    And for me. a bike I don't like the fundamental handling of just doesn't feel like an improvement. Even if it is faster, more comfortable or both.

    It's interesting you mention to Mykel the benefits of 27.5 being more noticable on the front and credit that to human's having weaker arms.
    I'm a massively rear wheel biased rider from riding/weighting/steering from my rear wheel far more often than most. A habit formed from all those years riding a stiff short travel hardtail fork and manualling everything so rarely get fatigue in my arms/core before my legs.

    "He who wonders discovers that this in itself is wonder" - M.C. Escher
     
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  7. sundaydoug

    sundaydoug Monkey

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  8. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    Poppycock! The use of "shock absorbers" is fine for ladies with dainty wrists, but a real gentleman requires neither those infernal instruments nor the pneumatic devilry of Mr Dunlop! A solid wooden rim is more than adequate when the limits of traction are respected and the use of materials other than wood, iron and leather should be regulated by those imbeciles in Paris.

    Whilst I do not use Strava, I find that once the ladie's kerchief hits the ground signalling the start of the bicycle tournament, I easily out-manoveur those other chaps on my velocipede!
     
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  9. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    Behold...

    alumininiuminum (the new wood)
    Haro.jpg

    ;)
     
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  10. slimshady

    slimshady Turbo Monkey

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  11. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    The original looks nicer.

    Anyone know the reach numbers for OG Sundays?
     
  12. bengxe

    bengxe Monkey

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    My large was around 420. That was the main reason I sold it, it always felt cramped coming from my trail bike.
     
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  13. szacsi72

    szacsi72 Chimp

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    I'm late, as always. Do you think he would make another one and sell it to me? I'd sell one of my kidneys. Lol. MY current one would be converted to park riding and I'd build that as a race(ish) bike.

    I've been dreaming so much about this. Imagine the Demo fanbois with their 2018 ultrasupercarbon (no offense) as an "old" ironhorse just shreds by. A car guy would call it a "sleeper".
     
  14. chris_f

    chris_f Monkey

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    He specifically says at the end of the article that they're not making any for sale.
     
  15. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    WTF are you on about?

    An old 26" Sunday didn't suddenly become unridabru the day bigger wheels, carbon frames, or longer top tubes became fashionable. They'll still go pretty fast if you're a decent rider.
     
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  16. sundaydoug

    sundaydoug Monkey

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    Every time I read something about the Sunday being obsolete I go searching for this fine display of bike wizardry. Granted it was 10 years ago, but unless you're racing at a super-high level the Sunday would still be A-OK
     
  17. saruti

    saruti Turbo Monkey

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    if I could go back in time.... but, Sam would probably wouldn't listen....
     
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  18. szacsi72

    szacsi72 Chimp

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    I literally said the opposite of that...
     
  19. HardtailHack

    HardtailHack used an iron once

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    Good, I thought I was missing something because I didn't know what Gary was on about.
     
  20. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    Sounded to me more like he meant cruising by on a German modernized 650b Sunday.

    There's literally no need. if you're fast. You'll still be fast on a 2008 Sunday with normal sized DH wheels and 2 whole degree steeper HA. infact you still see plenty folk on up to date carbon DH bikes you could cruise by on a 20yr old hardtail if that's your main aim in life.
     
  21. HardtailHack

    HardtailHack used an iron once

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  22. saruti

    saruti Turbo Monkey

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    if anyone interested, I'm (dont really want) selling my M frame.
     
  23. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    Which one? which shock? and how much?
     
  24. saruti

    saruti Turbo Monkey

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    PM me
     
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  25. Pakistaneca99

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    I'm new to the forum and i just got an iron horse Sunday L with 62° upgrade to my Gambler 2010 L and i don't have the frame bearing sizes. Coud someone give me them i know maybe you discussed this in the forum but there are a lot of pages to find them. Thanks alot !
     
  26. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Which year model Sunday?
    The good Sunday frames (2007-2009) with F7 linkage use extended inner race bearings which are proprietary parts. You can use the kit here: http://enduroforkseals.com/id266.html for a full replacement set.

    If you really want to use standard bearings on those year model frames, you can do it but you'll need spacers to take up the gap that the extender inner races otherwise take. These are the four lower bearings only, and are suffixed "MAX-E" (6902-2RS-MAX-E and 6903-2RS-MAX-E). They may also say LLU instead of 2RS, just a slightly tighter seal. For the four upper bearings you can use standard bearings - they are 608-2RS and 6902-2RS.



    I added an o-ring to the inside gap of the lower link bearings, which means they last much longer particularly in wet/muddy conditions:
    bearing.png

    Good luck.
     
  27. Pakistaneca99

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    I need the exact sizes for shock bushings to give them to a hardware store to make them for me !
     
  28. Pakistaneca99

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    ive got sunday 2009 wc L size
     
  29. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    The shock hardware (reducers) are 30x10mm (30mm wide, 10mm ID, 12.7mm OD) at both ends of the shock on your frame. The DU bushings are standard 12.7mm ID items.

    The actual shock bolts are custom parts, measure your own if you want some made.

    If you want any more info it's time to stop being lazy and read through the thread.
     
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  30. konastab01

    konastab01 Monkey

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    So i've bought a cheap sunday setup for a winter project, only got 126 pages to read through now.

    Apparently it is a Kinesis model which was made of different tubing and was for the team, might be BS but sounded good.
     
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  31. szacsi72

    szacsi72 Chimp

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