[S.K.C.]

I'm probably gonna get shot down for saying this, but you're better off getting a feel for how tight things need to be instead of relying on an inaccurate torque wrench. I'm sure there are good ones out there that are reasonably priced but IMO a real mech shouldn't need to fiddle with one for everything. Maybe on a car engine or something but not on a bike. If I had one, the only place I'd advise its use is on the large 22mm head alloy hex screws for the lower pivot - and only because alloy parts and a big socket wrench can be a recipe for disaster if you're not careful. Even then, a little care and it's fine.

On the sunday my advice would be clean all threads on all hardware, and use red (262) loctite on everything if you're the set and forget type. No bolts seem to have loosening issues EXCEPT the two 6mm countersunk screws (4mm head) either side of the lower shock pin, so technically you can use blue (242/243) loctite on everything apart from those.

These need to be tightened well, the only way they won't come loose over time in my experience is if you clean them well, use red loctite, and crank them down hard. The bolt head will strip before anything else bad happens (and if that happens you can gently hammer a torx / imperial fitting in and remove them), I've replaced those two on my bike with high tensile versions which seem to be more durable than the stock parts.

Sweet Jesus Udi!

For someone who has demonstrated a vast and adept knowledge base of the internal workings of suspension forks I am shocked to hear this from you - of all people.

No one will be "shooting you down" however.

I can understand where you are coming from - I've played guitar for almost 15 years and can tune a string to pitch without even being able to hear it over the roar on stage - I just do it by tension - compared to the tension of the closest strings on the fretboard.

As for going by "feel" when torquing bolts to specific values on the Sunday I would have to disagree with you on that. For safety reasons those torque values are there to ensure that all fasteners on the bike are tightened to within their respective tolerance range. If they aren't in that range or are overtorqued there could be a failure of a fastener (screws, nuts, bolts, pin axles) which could in turn result in the malfunction of suspension actuation.

In other words the bolts are what holds the rear triangle to the front triangle so if something goes wrong with the bolts while you are hauling through a rock garden...

I agreee - it is a pain in the a$$ to find a decent inexpensive torque wrench that is accurate to + or - 5nm... Syntace makes one but that thing is around $200 USD. My best advice would be to take your rig to a shop where they have a good quality torque wrench (like a Syntace) and tell them what bolts need to be torqued to what values.

Just to clarify - when you say use "Red Loctite" are you referring to the color of the actual Loctite fluid or the color of the container it comes in. In the states blue Loctite used to come in a blue tube but a few years ago they started putting it in a red tube... Why?.... well, why wouldn't they? Very confusing - but I'm not the Prez. of Loctite. :biggrin:

The only Loctite that should be used on the pivot hardware is blue in color - meaning the fluid color is blue.

 

[davep]

He is talking red colored loc-tite, as he refers to blue for the bolts that do not have as much tendancy to loosen.

As for the torque wrench, I have been building (top to bottom) my own bikes (as well as just about any and all house/auto/moto/etc maintance needed over this time) for over 25 years and never used (nor owned) a torque wrench. With enough experience you will have a pretty good idea of what a 3/16 fine thread, or 8mmX1.25, or 4mmX.75 etc should be tightened to by feel.

I would however not ever recomend this technique as (IMO) most people do not have a good feel for propper torque values (as witnessed by any and all e-mtb boards, auto repair chat boards,... really, anything mechanical how-to, etc)...

 

[Udi]

Yeah bla bla safety bla. That's my advice from what I've seen go wrong on friends bikes, at races, etc. Like davep suggested though, if you're a hack with a wrench ignore my post and buy a quality torque wrench.

Look I wasn't going to say anything but you don't actually work for IH (as much as it seems you want to or something? ) so I'm not sure what you're out to achieve by being so prim and proper. I know you're only trying to help, and you have indeed helped plenty - but you have to learn that manufacturer recommendation isn't the be all and end all.

Those two lower 6mm screws WILL back out eventually if you just use blue loctite, I've seen them back out using red when not cleaned properly - so I'll go ahead and disagree with you there. IMO the thread diameter and head size are both questionable for the application, so you do have to take extra measures to avoid issues.

As for loctite, I mentioned the product numbers of each fluid colour I mentioned so really I'm not sure why you even brought that up.

 

[pelo]

By the way... Have anyone tried 8mm bolts (and shockpin) for the upper shockmount on the 07 sunday link? I found the 10mm shockpin beeing so narrow it cut through the link and by that loosing pressure between link and shockpin - instead putting pressure on the shock from the reducercups? (Result is that the pin is not rotating in the shockbushing).

Edit: And it develops play.

 

[-BB-]

you have to learn that manufacturer recommendation isn't the be all and end all.

Those two lower 6mm screws WILL back out eventually if you just use blue loctite, I've seen them back out using red when not cleaned properly - so I'll go ahead and disagree with you there. IMO the thread diameter and head size are both questionable for the application, so you do have to take extra measures to avoid issues.

Yes... but I've never seen a MFG go to such lengths to stress what the proper values should be either, so I'm gonna assume that in this application it is pretty important. I don't have my '07 frame in hand so I'm not sure exactly what goes on in the shock hardware, but with some expanding bolt or whatever maybe there is a reason it has to be that tight. Maybe by overtightening it, you over expand it, and then it has a tendency to back out.

 

[bizutch]

Yes... but I've never seen a MFG go to such lengths to stress what the proper values should be either, ....:

It's the best you can do when attempting to defeat moronics....

 

[S.K.C.]

Yeah bla bla safety bla. That's my advice from what I've seen go wrong on friends bikes, at races, etc. Like davep suggested though, if you're a hack with a wrench ignore my post and buy a quality torque wrench.

...it's pretty easy to say "bla bla bla safety bla" when you aren't the one responsible for the manufacture of the bike and thus the safety of the riders who ride that bike Udi. It's the obilgation of a manufacturer to make sure that the product they are selling is being used correctly, and to that end, torque specs, disclaimers, and warranty info are provided to the public.

Dante (back when he was with I.H.) has spoken with me at length about how much time and effort dw put into designing the hardware (both the old and new versions) to make sure everything was done correctly and within the proper safety parameters. Those torque specs are there for a reason to make sure the hardware is being used well within those tested safety parameters... and if there's any guy out there who knows the hardware on this bike, it's the guy who designed it - dw.

Look I wasn't going to say anything but you don't actually work for IH (as much as it seems you want to or something? ) so I'm not sure what you're out to achieve by being so prim and proper. I know you're only trying to help, and you have indeed helped plenty - but you have to learn that manufacturer recommendation isn't the be all and end all.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows this by now Udi, however I do speak with Todd Seplavy and the rest of the guys at I.H. on a near regular basis, to help with questions that go beyond the scope of what I am capable of. Anytime someone gets the wrong impression, I always let them know what the deal is.

I'm not trying to prentend to be anything. It started out with a love for DH and then I got a Sunday. Since the guys who work at I.H. also race - I've come to know them from local races at Diablo here in New Jersey and have found them to be some of the coolest guys to hang out with. From there it just made sense to help out - why wouldn't you want to work with people that are mature, friendly, and easy-going especially if they share the same passions that you do?

Even though I help out, Todd and the rest of the guys at I.H. wouldn't allow me to be doing this unless I was presenting myself to the public as a professional first and foremost. I try to represent I.H. and Todd and honor them with the respect they deserve. Sure, there have been screw-ups, - nobody is perfect, but Todd is the kind of guy that people want to work with. So, I just want to do right by them.

Those two lower 6mm screws WILL back out eventually if you just use blue loctite, I've seen them back out using red when not cleaned properly - so I'll go ahead and disagree with you there. IMO the thread diameter and head size are both questionable for the application, so you do have to take extra measures to avoid issues.

Yep - I've had that happen too. Blue Loctite is the preferred threadlock to use, so that's why I say to go with that one.

As for loctite, I mentioned the product numbers of each fluid colour I mentioned so really I'm not sure why you even brought that up.

...to make sure everyone who reads this that doesn't decide to look up the product numbers understands what we are talking about.



Just tryin' to keep it simple and easy for everyone.

 

[OB1]

I browsed through the tech info at the front of this thread. Let me just say, wow! Chock full of words I don't understand, and terms I don't know. Props to all the hard work!

As a newer rider from the "other" bike sport, I really do not intend to become a master bike mechanic. I leave that in the capable hands of a great guy at my LBS. I want to update my ride. I was hoping a couple of you might point me toward obvious upgrades that I can have him order and install. If any of you do take the time to answer this post...thank you in advance!

05 Sunday WC
Current upgrades inc: Code brakes, SRAM drive (cassette, derailer, lever, chain), Mental pedals, and a Fox 40. Everything else is stock spec. I ride 80%FR, 20%DH. I decided to hit my first race in the fall, and I fell(pun intended). I got up and still got 4th of 17. That exited me to hit several more races in 08. I don't do drops bigger than 10'ish. That should help answer my "rider level" a bit. THANKS!

 

[S.K.C.]

I browsed through the tech info at the front of this thread. Let me just say, wow! Chock full of words I don't understand, and terms I don't know. Props to all the hard work!

As a newer rider from the "other" bike sport, I really do not intend to become a master bike mechanic. I leave that in the capable hands of a great guy at my LBS. I want to update my ride. I was hoping a couple of you might point me toward obvious upgrades that I can have him order and install. If any of you do take the time to answer this post...thank you in advance!

05 Sunday WC
Current upgrades inc: Code brakes, SRAM drive (cassette, derailer, lever, chain), Mental pedals, and a Fox 40. Everything else is stock spec. I ride 80%FR, 20%DH. I decided to hit my first race in the fall, and I fell(pun intended). I got up and still got 4th of 17. That exited me to hit several more races in 08. I don't do drops bigger than 10'ish. That should help answer my "rider level" a bit. THANKS!

OB1 - hey no worries! Just send me a PM with the terms you don't understand and I'll explain all the terminology to you - it's definitely helpful even if you aren't a mechanic.

As far as the spec on your rig, I don't really see any need to go any farther until something breaks. As a precaution, if the bars on your ride are the originals I would DEFINITELY get a new set. That's one piece of equip. you don't want to break unexpectedly. If you have a 5th on it (5th Element Shock absorber) you may want to upgrade to a tuned Rocco (by Marz. out in Cali) or a Vivid with an "A" Tune from the factory. If everything else is running smoothly, I'd say you're good to go!

 

[davep]

By the way... Have anyone tried 8mm bolts (and shockpin) for the upper shockmount on the 07 sunday link? I found the 10mm shockpin beeing so narrow it cut through the link and by that loosing pressure between link and shockpin - instead putting pressure on the shock from the reducercups? (Result is that the pin is not rotating in the shockbushing).

Edit: And it develops play.

see post #1174

although if you have significant scaring on the inner face of the rockers (link) i tmight be too late.

 

[pelo]

davep,
this is not mu first language, so please be patient if I sometimes do sound stupid...

Just to make sure I understand it:

From post #1174
"I beveled/counter sunk the start of the threads (internal) of the shaft just a mm..that fixed it for me."

Is the "interface" (shaft) the stabalizing pin behind the shockmount between the links?

Thanks for your help...

 

[davep]

Your english is great. Does this help?

 

[liqwid]

Whats the word on the 08 Linkage? Available yet? Price?
How about the availability of the 08 decals?

 

[pelo]

Ah... Now I get it.

I shortened the pivot shaft (behind the shock pin, stabalizing) by maybe 1/3 of a mm to get the links a little tighter towards the shockpin, it was better for a while, but a small play eventually started.

I´ll try your method daveb, it seems like a good solution.

My last choice will be new shockpin hardwear. A two-piece (split) shockpin like the upper shockmount on the Glory, will hopefully give a greater surface area on the iside of the links.

Thanks again.

 

[CarlE]

Whats the word on the 08 Linkage? Available yet? Price?
How about the availability of the 08 decals?

The word on the 08 linkage is it they will ship later this month and, provided everything goes smooth at customs, should see them sometime in March. We won't have a price until we receive them but expect a slight increase from 07.

We have yet to receive an ETA on the 08 decals. I'll let you know when we get one.

 

[S.K.C.]

Thanks Carl!

I'll update the front page with this info over the weekend.

 

[liqwid]

Awesome, thanks

 

[Udi]

...it's pretty easy to say "bla bla bla safety bla" when you aren't the one responsible for the manufacture of the bike and thus the safety of the riders who ride that bike Udi. It's the obilgation of a manufacturer to make sure that the product they are selling is being used correctly, and to that end, torque specs, disclaimers, and warranty info are provided to the public.

You aren't either, and I'd like to think that the point of this thread is to provide information beyond what the disclaimer/instructions provide, most people here are quite capable of reading them - the majority of questions asked here need real world solutions. Read back for issues with bearing seat undersizing, and pivot hardware not tightening correctly. Does the manual cover the use of bearing retainer, and bevelling the hardware so things can tighten correctly? Didn't think so; and these are the sort of issue that the mass population on here (relatively intelligent!) are going to need to solve.

Those torque specs are there for a reason to make sure the hardware is being used well within those tested safety parameters... and if there's any guy out there who knows the hardware on this bike, it's the guy who designed it - dw.

I beg to differ, I'd hazard a guess that most racers that are even remotely serious have done many more runs on the bike than dw, and before we bring up the other two word solution to any question asked of dw (Sam Hill), let me remind you that most riders don't have their own personal mechanic, nor do they want to be tightening loose bolts in the middle of each season. I haven't had to on any other bike I've owned (shock/linkage hardware - checked once per year), don't see why the Sunday should be an exception, but obviously it is - hence my suggestions!

Yep - I've had that happen too. Blue Loctite is the preferred threadlock to use, so that's why I say to go with that one.

Again, preferred by who? Read my post again. I suggested 262 because IMO 242/243 has a tendency to not cut the mustard in this application where I believe both thread size and bolt head size are leaning towards undersized (whereas in the past, most bikes have used 8mm threads and 6mm heads for shock hardware... leaning towards oversized, but a safe and durable bet in the long run).

...to make sure everyone who reads this that doesn't decide to look up the product numbers understands what we are talking about.

You just made an assumption that people on here won't look up a product number when given to them, a number that can be looked up for free on the internet or asked of a shop attendant easily.

It's a questionable, yet fair assumption to make - but want me to edu-guess another important statistic? How many people that own a Sunday own a torque wrench? I'd say 1% at a guess, but that's 1 in 100 and I think that's a gross overestimate given that even the most capable (and well-equipped) mechanics in this thread don't own or use one.

Now, how many people are going to take their bike to a shop WITH a torque wrench every time their hardware comes loose? Generously, you could probably assume 10-25%, again I think that's an overestimate. With those points made, you might understand why I suggested 262 loctite on the lower shock bolts, and a little force.

Better spell it out anyway. Sunday owners generally:

1. Just want to ride.
2. Don't have their own personal mechanic.
3. Don't want to spend money on a tool that's seemingly unnecessary. Evident by how many people own said tool.
4. Don't want to be checking/tightening bolts at multiple times throughout the season. Everyone knows it's good to, but given the option they'd surely rather not.
5. Do want solutions to avoid the above three!

 

[S.K.C.]

Udi...

Look - I understand what you are saying, but within the context of torque values for fasteners on a bike the "real world" solution of over-torquing isn't the best solution from the standpoint of what is recommended by the manufacturer. Safety is an issue here and the manufacturer makes those torque value recommendations to ensure proper operation of the suspension and the safety of the rider.

Could someone choose to over-torque fasteners, use dremel tools to modify the frame and drill-out bearing bores? Sure. Does the manufacturer recommend it? No.

As far as having a torque wrench in the first place - yes, not many riders can afford one let alone a good one - myself included. That's why it's best to find a shop that has one to get things done properly. Sure, if something comes loose and there isn't a torque wrench around, people will tighten it down - but this is done at their discretion. To a certain extent there is a component of liability involved here, and that's all I'm trying to illustrate (the reason manufacturers provide torque values, warranty info, terms of useage, etc)

The purpose of this thread is to support the rider and to provide info that isn't easily found elsewhere.

On that note - let's not clutter the thread any further with this.


Sir, if you're a gentleman, you'll meet me in a Private Message where we shall duel with torque wrenches at 10 paces. First one to 30nm wins.

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

I await your response.

:biggrin:

 

[Happymulletuk]

Ok guys, I think I must be missing something here. I weigh 150-160, and run the recommended 300lbs spring on my 07 DHX5 equipped sunday. I also run bottom out at max with 150psi in the chamber. Sag is set correctly at 30-33%.

My problem is I bottom out alot, and the back end seems generally pretty soft for me. Now obviously if you're not bottoming somewhere they you're not set up correctly, but I'm botomming maybe 10-20 times a run, on things like small drops and big ruts.

The way I figure it is this, my other bike is a demo 8, also with a DHX5, that's 8.1" travel from a 2.8" stroke shock (with a 400lbs spring), so that's a total of 1157lbs of force at the shock to bottom the spring (not taking account of the air). On the Sunday it's more like (8/3)*300=800lbs of force total. My demo feels much more "evenly" sprung front-to-rear.

I'd appreciate any set up tips/advice/experience from people who've had similar setup issues.

Regards,

Happymullet.

 

[bizutch]

Anybody besides me think Udi needs to go ride a bike?

 

[CarlE]

You aren't either, and I'd like to think that the point of this thread is to provide information beyond what the disclaimer/instructions provide, most people here are quite capable of reading them - the majority of questions asked here need real world solutions. Read back for issues with bearing seat undersizing, and pivot hardware not tightening correctly. Does the manual cover the use of bearing retainer, and bevelling the hardware so things can tighten correctly? Didn't think so; and these are the sort of issue that the mass population on here (relatively intelligent!) are going to need to solve.



I beg to differ, I'd hazard a guess that most racers that are even remotely serious have done many more runs on the bike than dw, and before we bring up the other two word solution to any question asked of dw (Sam Hill), let me remind you that most riders don't have their own personal mechanic, nor do they want to be tightening loose bolts in the middle of each season. I haven't had to on any other bike I've owned (shock/linkage hardware - checked once per year), don't see why the Sunday should be an exception, but obviously it is - hence my suggestions!



Again, preferred by who? Read my post again. I suggested 262 because IMO 242/243 has a tendency to not cut the mustard in this application where I believe both thread size and bolt head size are leaning towards undersized (whereas in the past, most bikes have used 8mm threads and 6mm heads for shock hardware... leaning towards oversized, but a safe and durable bet in the long run).



You just made an assumption that people on here won't look up a product number when given to them, a number that can be looked up for free on the internet or asked of a shop attendant easily.

It's a questionable, yet fair assumption to make - but want me to edu-guess another important statistic? How many people that own a Sunday own a torque wrench? I'd say 1% at a guess, but that's 1 in 100 and I think that's a gross overestimate given that even the most capable (and well-equipped) mechanics in this thread don't own or use one.

Now, how many people are going to take their bike to a shop WITH a torque wrench every time their hardware comes loose? Generously, you could probably assume 10-25%, again I think that's an overestimate. With those points made, you might understand why I suggested 262 loctite on the lower shock bolts, and a little force.

Better spell it out anyway. Sunday owners generally:

1. Just want to ride.
2. Don't have their own personal mechanic.
3. Don't want to spend money on a tool that's seemingly unnecessary. Evident by how many people own said tool.
4. Don't want to be checking/tightening bolts at multiple times throughout the season. Everyone knows it's good to, but given the option they'd surely rather not.
5. Do want solutions to avoid the above three!

So you would buy a bike that the frame alone retails for $2500 and wouldn't spend $50 on a torque wrench? Regardless if it's +/- 4% it's going to come a lot closer to the torque value then the tighten till it's tight method. For those asking about torque wrenches, +/- 4% is actually pretty good for an at home wrench. The only torque wrenches that a perfectly accurate are re-calibrated just about every day.

You may not want to tighten bolts in the middle of the season but you should be checking them before every ride, regardless of what bike your ride or if a pivot has never come loose before. I don't think I need to say that having a pivot fall out of your bike as your bombing down the mountain can lead to serious injury.

The bolt head size thing, I personally agree with you but I don't make those decisions so...
Loc-tite, I'm not going to get into what loc-tite you should use other than you should definitly use some and it shouldn't be the "I'm never going to take this bolt out again" type.

In closing...Everyone just wants to ride...Most people don't have a personal mechanic unless they count themselves as two people...Buy the tool (you wouldn't remove your shock bolts with vise-grips if you didn't have the right allen key)...Check your bolts, "it hasn't come loose before" doesn't mean it won't.

 

[S.K.C.]

Ok guys, I think I must be missing something here. I weigh 150-160, and run the recommended 300lbs spring on my 07 DHX5 equipped sunday. I also run bottom out at max with 150psi in the chamber. Sag is set correctly at 30-33%.

My problem is I bottom out alot, and the back end seems generally pretty soft for me. Now obviously if you're not bottoming somewhere they you're not set up correctly, but I'm botomming maybe 10-20 times a run, on things like small drops and big ruts.

The way I figure it is this, my other bike is a demo 8, also with a DHX5, that's 8.1" travel from a 2.8" stroke shock (with a 400lbs spring), so that's a total of 1157lbs of force at the shock to bottom the spring (not taking account of the air). On the Sunday it's more like (8/3)*300=800lbs of force total. My demo feels much more "evenly" sprung front-to-rear.

I'd appreciate any set up tips/advice/experience from people who've had similar setup issues.

Regards,

Happymullet.

I had the exact same problem - what solved it was going to a 350lbs. spring. Suits my weight and riding style perfectly!

 

[Udi]

SKC - No fight to be had. Manufacturer recommendations can be whatever they want, they aren't going to change reality.

CarlE - Regarding purchasing a $50 tool, again I wasn't stating how things should be, I was stating how things are. You can either cater for reality or whatever delusional idea you have in your head of how things should be, my replies were to cater for the former. Aside from that, for the record, 262 loctite is high strength, but still removable with hand tools.

Finally, to both of you - in regards to "correct" torque values, I invite you (or anyone) to remove their Sunday's lower shock pin and inspect it. Of five bikes I've inspected the pin on, five have had significant striations (and loss of surface material) indicating wear around the circumference of the pin that the shock reducer sits on.

Do you know what that indicates? It indicates that the reducer is rotating on the pin, due to inadequate clamping force on the reducer. What does this lead to? Wear of the pin and reducer, parts that were not designed to wear and are costly to replace.

And the cause? Well you could call it a design fault (I will) but the only thing close to a solution you'll get is increasing torque on the two 6mm bolts either side of the pin. Technically, only the drive-side bolt, as this is the sole bolt clamping the reducer and preventing it from moving.

Like I said - that's an open invitation to inspect any pre-ridden 07-08 Sunday lower pin for those marks, preferably ones where you know correct torque has been maintained. Come back to me when you're done, but if you're going to dispute what I said I'd like pictorial evidence.

PS. Bizutch - I do ride a bike, in fact I thrash my gear season-in season-out and don't have the luxury that you seem to have of getting new bikes all the time. So I kinda notice when parts don't work as intended and take extra steps if needed. I appreciate the point you tried (and failed) to make but if you've got nothing to add to the discussion at hand, butt out.

 

[S.K.C.]

Understood.

Seriously - I never wanted this thread to digress into something like this, and in it's history I think this is the first time it's ever happened. Not bad really, for only being around for a little over a year.

Let's just let it end (everyone). Butch - I know it's hard, but for a response, please go with a PM on this?

:biggrin:

P.S. - Udi, could you clear your PM's? Tried to send you one and it said you were full.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Holy crap, 4 years of the sunday and STILL problems with the shock hardware. I know lead times are long but, come on! Maybe it will be fixed next year when they drop the DW link.....

 

[mann]

My current build.still trying to get hold of a DHX 5.0 to replace the Air.The Totem is staying on the bike for the moment.Still got my 40s and Boxxer WC to try on it.

This is definitely one fast bike.Had a test run in Kuala Lumpur,Malaysia and this bike just rips the trails!Pedalling efficiency is excellent.
Not too impressed with the Air shock.

 

[bizutch]

Understood.

Seriously - I never wanted this thread to digress into something like this, and in it's history I think this is the first time it's ever happened. Not bad really, for only being around for a little over a year.

Let's just let it end (everyone). Butch - I know it's hard, but for a response, please go with a PM on this?

:biggrin:

P.S. - Udi, could you clear your PM's? Tried to send you one and it said you were full.

of?

 

[Udi]

SKC - cleared a couple.
And yeah honestly, it's not something I'd class as a significant issue - doesn't seem to really cause a problem for anyone (maybe after a few seasons, I can't say). Just wanted to point out I wasn't just saying "feel free be a total hack with a wrench" without a legit reason. I mean don't be a hack at all, but just keep those bolts as tight as you safely can is my advice, to get the longest lifespan out of all parts involved. Just the lower driveside pin bolt really, the top ones I'd actually advise being very gentle with so that the 10mil shock reducer doesn't eat into the links.

Holy crap, 4 years of the sunday and STILL problems with the shock hardware. I know lead times are long but, come on! Maybe it will be fixed next year when they drop the DW link.....

I was just bitching to prove a point really, as I said above it's not a significant issue. I would have probably done things a little differently, but I'll be the first to admit it's a hard suspension design to create a robust hardware setup for (thanks to the pivot concentric shock mount). The new setup is still leaps and bounds over previous years and I think is probably as close to perfection as it was going to get - I'm sufficiently happy with mine after learning the ins and outs.

That aside, I can't think of another frame I'd have instead. The numbers are pretty much dialled, you can barely find geometry as-good off the shelf (even after 3 years in production), let alone something that pedals nearly as well. The new turner is about as close as it gets, and aside from the small weight advantage, it still takes second place.

Not sure if it's been said yet but personally I think it's a damn shame that there won't be another dw-link sunday, I was really looking forward to watching it evolve even further over the coming years. I can't see one without the other being quite the same.

 

[CarlE]

Udi- I personally worried that people would read your post and think they should do that to all of their pivots and not just the shock hardware. In fact, when I responded to your post I wasn't really even thinking about the shock hardware as much as the pivots themselves. You're obviously mechanically inclined and work on your own stuff, which I respect since I've always done the same from my cars to my bikes, but reading your post I had visions of less mechanically inclined riders taking a 1/2 rachet and tightening pivots with reckless abandon and it made me cringe.

 

[pelo]

I would have probably done things a little differently, but I'll be the first to admit it's a hard suspension design to create a robust hardware setup for (thanks to the pivot concentric shock mount). The new setup is still leaps and bounds over previous years and I think is probably as close to perfection as it was going to get - I'm sufficiently happy with mine after learning the ins and outs.

That aside, I can't think of another frame I'd have instead. The numbers are pretty much dialled, you can barely find geometry as-good off the shelf (even after 3 years in production), let alone something that pedals nearly as well. The new turner is about as close as it gets, and aside from the small weight advantage, it still takes second place.

Not sure if it's been said yet but personally I think it's a damn shame that there won't be another dw-link sunday, I was really looking forward to watching it evolve even further over the coming years. I can't see one without the other being quite the same.

Very well said. I totally agree with this.

 

[S.K.C.]

Udi,

It's all good.

 

[liqwid]

So this might have already been answered but why was the upper link modified in 07? If I replace the bearings with the Max-E kit found here:

http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id55.html

Will that eliminate the loose pivot syndrome? Or is there more to it?

 

[S.K.C.]

The newer "F7" linkage kit introduced on the 2007 Sundays was designed by dw for 3 reasons:

(By comparison to the original linkage)

1. To ease the serviceability of the shock - i.e. the shock hardware is easier to remove.

2. To make the hardware stronger and more durable.

3. To make the hardware less complicated - the newer 10mm hardware is self-aligning.

Just to clear a few things up, the newer F7 Linkage Kits were NOT designed for the purpose of fixing spacing issues in the frame or to replace poorly designed linkage in the first place. Back in 05' I.H. put together specific spacer kits to solve some of the issues riders had been having.

The F7 linkage was designed around the bigger beefier 10mm hardware. If the bearing bores were improperly drilled in your frame, or there is some other issue that is causing excessive play, that is a warranty issue which would gladly be taken care of by Iron Horse.



As with most suspension designs, after a certain amount of wear and tear (depends on how often you are out ripping on your bike ) play will develop as the pin axle moves inside the reducers in the shock eyelet. This can be remedied with new shock hardware from Iron Horse.

liqwid - what kind of issues are you experiencing? - the source could be one of many causes.

 

[liqwid]

I'm not having any problems new bearings wont solve. I'd like to replace the 5th element with a DHX 5 on my 06 and was debating on replacing the linkage while I was at it. If there's not much of a difference then I'm just going to replace only the old bearings instead of buying the entire linkage kit. I'm probably never going to put a Vivid on there and I'm assuming thats the only reason why the lower link was modified in 08.

 

[S.K.C.]

I'm not having any problems new bearings wont solve. I'd like to replace the 5th element with a DHX 5 on my 06 and was debating on replacing the linkage while I was at it. If there's not much of a difference then I'm just going to replace only the old bearings instead of buying the entire linkage kit. I'm probably never going to put a Vivid on there and I'm assuming thats the only reason why the lower link was modified in 08.

Exactly!

The 08' lower link was modified to clear the Vivid. Last year I wanted to upgrade to the new linkage, but decided to save a few bucks and install the new MAX-E bearings instead, and they work perfectly.

As far as clearance goes - the original and newer 07' linkage will both accept a DHX.

You can get the entire compliment of MAX-E bearings from enduro here:

http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id55.html

Call or email to double check that the Sunday Bearing Kit comes with the MAX-E bearings. Cross reference this with the "Descriptions" in the Schematic/CAD drawing on the first page of this thread (ex: 6903 2RS MAX-E) all of the pertinent info is kept there in an archive. The numbers in the "Description" column correspond directly to the bearing part numbers as they are listed by the manufacturer (Enduro) - meaning that these numbers are universal.

Hope this helps.

 

[liqwid]

Awesome, thats exactly what I wanted to know.

Thanks!

 

[Supa8]

Anyone know how soon before the 08 Sunday Factory framesets start coming with Vivids vs the DHX? I have a frame on order and curious as to what inner diameter TI spring to order for it.

 

[S.K.C.]

I'll give Carl a buzz at the offices tomorrow and see what's up - I think the first batch is coming with DHX's but don't hold me to that... I could be wrong.


EDIT:

From Carl E. :

The 08 Sunday Factory framesets will be built in the US and come with the Vivid. After this production run is complete the Sunday frames will be built overseas and be called Sunday World Cup framesets. These frame sets will come with the Vivid.

Carl

 

[Pyrosteiner]

I want to buy a Ironhorse sunday for DH-Race. What frame 17" or 19" do you recommend? I´m 1,83m (german Meter) high.