The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

nugget · Mar 6, 2007

And there's another, Anyone seen this?

http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1214654/

dhmtbiker9 · Mar 6, 2007

If there is a problam with loose shocks on 05 and 06 models cant you get wider bushings to take up xtra slack.I dont think I should have tighten my bolts so much to pull frame and top rocker arms in to tighten against shock.It seems to me the bushings should be wider, because when I put shock in position there seems to be alot of play before cranking down on bolts.If it is bad to put bigger bushes let me know cause I might try some 8x24 to see if this helps. DH9

bizutch · Mar 6, 2007

Here's a question for Sunday fans:

I am going to buy either the 07 Elite or the 07 Team complete.
The Team is $1000.00 cheaper and weighs the same.
Major differences I could see:
Team-------------------------Elite
DHX 3.0----------------------DHX 5.0
Boxxer Team-----------------888rc2x
OEM hubs---------------------DT hubs Don't care. Got my own wheels
Funn MSX stem?------------- Funn mzx2? difference?
FSA Mega Exo------------- ---Race Face x-type diff?
Race Face Gravity Gap-------Race Face Diabolus Diff?
Juicy 5's-----------------------Codes
XT/Ultegra shift----------------X7/X9 combo....

Don't care about the cranks, BB, chain, stem, saddle in terms of ride QUALITY.
Wheels, seatpost I got covered.
Main difference I am concerned about is the 3.0 versus 5.0.
Todd says if I go with the Team, to send it to be Pushed..negating some of the savings....but I lose a LOT of tuning..with only Rebound.

The other differences to me are the XT/Ultegra...haven't used standard Rapidfire in a while...only SRAM on anything DH.

Last concern is the Juicy 5 versus Codes. i had Juicy 7's on my Demo last year..perfect brake all around. Have the 5's on my trail bike and no complaints...but haven't busted out all day DH sessions on them. And Zero experience on the Codes which of course I know will stop great.

Thoughts????

toodles · Mar 6, 2007

I think you've got the cranks backwards there... Doesn't the Elite have the Diablous and the Team have the gap cranks?

Anyway, the Elite frame is the US-made one and is supposed to be lighter? (maybe)

jungle · Mar 6, 2007

toodles,
that's right the team has the gravity gap cranks
and the elite the diabolus cranks

Also the US made elite and wc frames are 400 grams ligther than
the taiwanese made team frame

hope this helps

bizutch · Mar 6, 2007

jungle said:
toodles,
that's right the team has the gravity gap cranks
and the elite the diabolus cranks

Also the US made elite and wc frames are 400 grams ligther than
the taiwanese made team frame

hope this helps

like I said...not concerned much at all about cranks and BB's. more the questions I asked regarding the 2 diff shocks and the brakes.

jungle · Mar 6, 2007

I want to replace the DHX3.0 with a DHX5.0 on my 2007 Sunday Team

Is there anything specific I could tell the Fox technicians at Dirtworks
in Australia to help tune the Fox DHX5.0 or should I just get the stock DHX5.0 and see how it goes firstly ?

Do I just tell the Fox technicians to tune the Fox to 1/3 the compression damping of the standard DHX5.0 compression damping and they will know what to do ?

Is that all I need to tell them ?

Does anything else need changing as part of the Sunday Tune ?

thanks in advance

heikkihall · Mar 6, 2007

If you like the Juicy 7 then you will be fine with the Juicy 5. All of them that I felt were practically the same, minus the adjustment. But how much did you really use that adjustment anyway? Get the brakes to how you like them with the proper bleed and then leave em that way.

With the DHX I cannot comment as I have never used or even felt a 3.0, the 5.0 however was pretty nice.

Udi · Mar 6, 2007

My opinion is that the "sunday tuned" DHX doesn't have 1/3 the damping of a regular DHX at all. In fact, while the leverage ratio of the sunday is low, it's not THAT low - having only 1/3 of the original damping would just limit your adjustment range (potentially leaving you with too little damping, especially for heavier riders). Not sure where that figure even came from!

I'd be interested to hear what exactly is done to the DHX in terms of reshimming, because as WBC stated I can't really feel a difference in the shocks either. I think it's a crock, and until someone wants to tell us EXACTLY what is changed internally I think it's safe to say you'll be fine just running a standard DHX with zero propedal, starting with minimum pressure, and max bottom out (as per usual sunday DHX adjustment recommendations).

The difference IMO is somewhere between nonexistant and minimal, however there's always going to be someone bitten hard by the placebo bug to tell us otherwise...

Eren · Mar 6, 2007

bizutch said:
Here's a question for Sunday fans:

I am going to buy either the 07 Elite or the 07 Team complete.
The Team is $1000.00 cheaper and weighs the same.
Major differences I could see:
Team-------------------------Elite
DHX 3.0----------------------DHX 5.0
Boxxer Team-----------------888rc2x
OEM hubs---------------------DT hubs Don't care. Got my own wheels
Funn MSX stem?------------- Funn mzx2? difference?
FSA Mega Exo------------- ---Race Face x-type diff?
Race Face Gravity Gap-------Race Face Diabolus Diff?
Juicy 5's-----------------------Codes
XT/Ultegra shift----------------X7/X9 combo....

Don't care about the cranks, BB, chain, stem, saddle in terms of ride QUALITY.
Wheels, seatpost I got covered.
Main difference I am concerned about is the 3.0 versus 5.0.
Todd says if I go with the Team, to send it to be Pushed..negating some of the savings....but I lose a LOT of tuning..with only Rebound.

The other differences to me are the XT/Ultegra...haven't used standard Rapidfire in a while...only SRAM on anything DH.

Last concern is the Juicy 5 versus Codes. i had Juicy 7's on my Demo last year..perfect brake all around. Have the 5's on my trail bike and no complaints...but haven't busted out all day DH sessions on them. And Zero experience on the Codes which of course I know will stop great.

Thoughts????

tje team is the x7 x9 combo and the elite is the ultrega. . .

toodles · Mar 6, 2007

Udi said:
I think it's a crock, and until someone wants to tell us EXACTLY what is changed internally I think it's safe to say you'll be fine just running a standard DHX with zero propedal, starting with minimum pressure, and max bottom out (as per usual sunday DHX adjustment recommendations).

The difference IMO is somewhere between nonexistant and minimal, however there's always going to be someone bitten hard by the placebo bug to tell us otherwise...

Don't mind uDi... if he doesn't comprehend something it's automatically witch talk to him...

Udi · Mar 7, 2007

I'm just trying to save the guy the easy $100+ dirtworks (our fox distributor) is going to want to ream for the "custom tune".

To be fair, you did say:

S.K.C. said:
The "Sunday Tune" (1/3 compression & rebound) of a regular DHX

If it had 1/3 the rebound, you'd probably have guys at the higher end of the scale not having enough damping like I said. Honestly though, 1/3 of the existing propedal still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me if we are talking about running the adjuster at zero clicks vs zero clicks.

With the propedal (on a standard shock) backed all the way off, there is little to no lowspeed compression damping (closer to none in the earlier part of the stroke anyway). If you don't believe me, pull a standard DHX out of the bike, take the spring off, back the propedal off all the way (+ minimum pressure) and give it a few pushes. After feeling the amount of resistance, factor in a ~2.67:1 leverage ratio drowning out nearly 2/3 of what you felt, and that'll be the amount of LSC damping you would get. Next to nothing.

Hence my questioning how much of a difference the sunday tune would actually make, and my suggestion that trying it with the stock DHX first might be a good way to go. But oh well... if you wanna spend the money go ahead.

Hannu · Mar 7, 2007

I would also be interested what "sunday-tune" exacly includes, as I have a shim-stack manitou 6way that was tuned for Orange 224 and is now going to be used in sunbay. As spring rates doesn't differ that much(350 vs 300) I can't see how rebound could be only 1/3 of what I was running in 224. If I back rebound adjuster full fast it is still too fast in with 300 spring in sunday. I agree that shock feels a bit compression-overdamped in sunday, but 1/3 seems quite a big difference.

Udi · Mar 7, 2007

The rebound isn't actually 1/3 like skc said (probably nowhere near it), dw just it was "less".
You can adjust the stock dhx from pretty well zero rebound damping to almost not returning, so there's really no need to revalve that at all IMO. At zero clicks, it's just going to be too fast on any bike out there. Sounds like your shock is the same story.

Can't really comment on the custom swinger you're running though since i've never ridden it.. if you feel there's too much compression, you might actually need a lighter valving or lighter weight oil if you feel there's too much damping at minimum settings. I know stock swingers/5ths definitely do.

bizutch · Mar 7, 2007

A factor you're ignoring in regards to your "hypothesis" is the wheel path of the rear wheel and it's effect on the damping curve inherent in the shock WHEN COMBINED with the rear wheels path's effect on chain growth.
Chain growth + Pro-Pedal+Linkage Leverage= bunch of crazy crap I'm glad some guy who recently had lasik is figuring out for me....

bizutch · Mar 7, 2007

Oh...and thumbs up to Heiki and SKC for contributing useful remarks for me to help me make my decision.

Hannu · Mar 7, 2007

Udi said:
The rebound isn't actually 1/3 like skc said (probably nowhere near it), dw just it was "less".
You can adjust the stock dhx from pretty well zero rebound damping to almost not returning, so there's really no need to revalve that at all IMO. At zero clicks, it's just going to be too fast on any bike out there. Sounds like your shock is the same story.

Can't really comment on the custom swinger you're running though since i've never ridden it.. if you feel there's too much compression, you might actually need a lighter valving or lighter weight oil if you feel there's too much damping at minimum settings. I know stock swingers/5ths definitely do.

Yes, my frame came with 5th element shock and it really felt better(than 224-tuned 6way), so I think that "sunday-tune" makes sense. That's why I would like to know what is done to 5th's that come with sundays, but it seems to be a bit of a secret...

jungle · Mar 7, 2007

Udi and SKC ,
very interesting can of worms starting to be opened here
Many thanks for your help and input

I've got onto Todd (Many thanks for his patience with me helping me out immensely with setting up my Sunday)
who suggested I get Dirtworks to get into contact
with the Fox USA to get the latest Sunday tune details,

I might just have to get the standard off the shelf DHX5.0 afterall.

cheers

bizutch · Mar 7, 2007

I was just told by a very good source that yes you can order a Sunday Tuned 5.0 direct from Fox. Be sure to give them the model Sunday due to '07's hardware change.

jungle · Mar 7, 2007

bizutch said:
I was just told by a very good source that yes you can order a Sunday Tuned 5.0 direct from Fox. Be sure to give them the model Sunday due to '07's hardware change.

Definitely in the USA, but apparently not here in Australia
as the one's that need to know, seems not to have heard of it
before.

dw · Mar 7, 2007

Udi said:
I'm just trying to save the guy the easy $100+ dirtworks (our fox distributor) is going to want to ream for the "custom tune".

To be fair, you did say:

If it had 1/3 the rebound, you'd probably have guys at the higher end of the scale not having enough damping like I said. Honestly though, 1/3 of the existing propedal still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me if we are talking about running the adjuster at zero clicks vs zero clicks.

With the propedal (on a standard shock) backed all the way off, there is little to no lowspeed compression damping (closer to none in the earlier part of the stroke anyway). If you don't believe me, pull a standard DHX out of the bike, take the spring off, back the propedal off all the way (+ minimum pressure) and give it a few pushes. After feeling the amount of resistance, factor in a ~2.67:1 leverage ratio drowning out nearly 2/3 of what you felt, and that'll be the amount of LSC damping you would get. Next to nothing.

Hence my questioning how much of a difference the sunday tune would actually make, and my suggestion that trying it with the stock DHX first might be a good way to go. But oh well... if you wanna spend the money go ahead.

When the 5th element first came out, the Sunday frames needed roughly 1/3 the compression damping used by other bikes. Progressive's # from dyno curves, not mine. Not sure what it translates to in FOX world, and I am also not sure how much the DHX valving has changed for non Sunday Tune shocks, but I can tell you three things for certain.

1) dw-link can use a heck of a lot less compression damping than most other bikes.

2) The DHX tune for the Sunday does exist, and has shipped with the bikes and been avaliable from FOX for 2 years.

3) I've had some of the best riders in the world actually ride the bike back to back with the stock tune and Sunday tune and say that they can feel the increase in traction with the dw-link tune.

dw-link can really make the right damper feel really good, but if you replace the damper with a wood block, the suspension isn't going to perform like most people would like...

I highly recommend the DHX Sunday tune, or a ROCO with really light valving (stock valving won't work at all).

hope this clears up any confusion.

Dave

zero knowledge · Mar 7, 2007

dw said:
I highly recommend ... a ROCO with really light valving (stock valving won't work at all).

I have a Roco with stock valving and indeed it is too heavily damped for my Sunday. Do you have any specific configurations for the shim stack that works well with the Sunday or possibly somebody at Marzocchi that could provide that information? I want to avoid as much as possible the guess-work and minimize the openings of the shock in order to play with the shim stack.

jungle · Mar 7, 2007

would the sunday tune be more beneficial for a lighter rider
as opposed to a heavier rider like myself 240lbs (110kg)
who may need more compression damping ?

heikkihall · Mar 7, 2007

jungle said:
would the sunday tune be more beneficial for a lighter rider
as opposed to a heavier rider like myself 240lbs (110kg)
who may need more compression damping ?

I weight around 200 lbs. and I notice a HUGE difference with the Sunday tune. I would say that it would be even more beneficial for a heavier rider because it would help you get the proper speed rebound damping. Without the tune the rebound tends to be really slow with the proper spring weight.

Udi · Mar 7, 2007

dw said:
When the 5th element first came out, the Sunday frames needed roughly 1/3 the compression damping used by other bikes. Progressive's # from dyno curves, not mine. Not sure what it translates to in FOX world, and I am also not sure how much the DHX valving has changed for non Sunday Tune shocks, but I can tell you three things for certain.

<snip>

3) I've had some of the best riders in the world actually ride the bike back to back with the stock tune and Sunday tune and say that they can feel the increase in traction with the dw-link tune.

That was what I was getting at. I'm definitely not disputing the difference in 5th element based sundays between the stock and correctly tuned damper (having ridden them back to back). This is because the 5th (and swinger) are very heavily damped shocks out of the box, even at minimum settings - and the platform damping is still overly active at minimum pressures.

The DHX however is damped much more lightly, doesn't have a platform to break through, and as I said - with the propedal wound all the way off, has little LSC damping (next to nothing), at least until you go past 1/2 the travel when the position sensitive compression damping starts kicking in. On a non dw-link bike that would otherwise run a 5th/swinger, i'm of the opinion that the standard DHX, even with maximum propedal, is erring on the side of too little LSC damping - or *just* enough anyway. Bit of a contrast from the 5th/swinger.

If your point 3) was indeed referring to sundays equipped with a standard DHX (at zero PP) vs fox's sunday tuned DHX, then i'm happy to eat my words (or at least take your word for it) but if that was with the 5ths then I don't think it's a relevant comparison.

PS - no one was debating the existance of the sunday tuned DHX. It's just not an available valving from the fox distributor here in Australia. My suggestion was that with the propedal backed off (and taking into account the rider weighs 240lbs) the stock DHX would work a charm, and save some money.

dw · Mar 8, 2007

Udi, statement 3 was in regards to the FOX DHX 5.0. You can tell Sam Hill that he is wrong, but I honestly feel exactly what he is saying on the trail. Its immediately apparent after only a few minutes on the trail that a stock DHX 5.0 is overdamped on a Sunday.

dw · Mar 8, 2007

zero knowledge said:
I have a Roco with stock valving and indeed it is too heavily damped for my Sunday. Do you have any specific configurations for the shim stack that works well with the Sunday or possibly somebody at Marzocchi that could provide that information? I want to avoid as much as possible the guess-work and minimize the openings of the shock in order to play with the shim stack.

Tom at Marzocchi tuned the shock tht I rode, but I don't have the exact info. I can ask him. That shock felt awesome with Tom's ninja Sunday tune.

Dave

dante · Mar 8, 2007

*every* single stock, off the shelf shock has felt overdamped, from WAY overdamped on something like progressive/swingers, to just somewhat overdamped on DHXs and ROCOs.

Udi · Mar 8, 2007

dw said:
Udi, statement 3 was in regards to the FOX DHX 5.0. You can tell Sam Hill that he is wrong, but I honestly feel exactly what he is saying on the trail. Its immediately apparent after only a few minutes on the trail that a stock DHX 5.0 is overdamped on a Sunday.

Fair enough, that was all I was after. Well, that and a double blind but close enough.

davetrump · Mar 8, 2007

dante said:
*every* single stock, off the shelf shock has felt overdamped, from WAY overdamped on something like progressive/swingers, to just somewhat overdamped on DHXs and ROCOs.

travis... did you ever get that pushed dhx sorted out that you were running at whiteface in september?

dh_newbie · Mar 8, 2007

dw said:
Tom at Marzocchi tuned the shock tht I rode, but I don't have the exact info. I can ask him. That shock felt awesome with Tom's ninja Sunday tune.

Dave

Well, Please add the Rocco tune for the Sunday use..Which Rocco would be more suitable for the Sunday use? TST or WC?

dw · Mar 9, 2007

In case these haven't been posted, here are the pivot torques for the Sunday and other 07 Iron Horse dw-link bikes.

Eren · Mar 9, 2007

thanks DW, thats good info, i was lookin around for it

dw · Mar 9, 2007

S.K.C. said:
dw - actually, I have a link that points to a table like this with all of the dw bikes on it on the first page, but it IS just a link....

Hmmm.... I think in the next day or two I'll cut and paste this table to the first page of this thread so the info is more accessible for everyone.

Thanks for posting this table - you tha' man.

No prob man, thanks for keeping this thread up there, it seems to really be keeping the Sunday thread count down and making things a lot more organized.

You might want to post this up there too. --->

The 05-06 7POINT uses different chainstay hardware, so torque spec is 3.7N*M on the 05-06 7POINT rear chainstay pivot.

dante · Mar 9, 2007

dh_newbie said:
Well, Please add the Rocco tune for the Sunday use..Which Rocco would be more suitable for the Sunday use? TST or WC?

according to Marzocchi's website, the TST is not available in 9.5x3. therefore, the WC would be a better fit. also, you wouldn't need the adjustable compression on a DH bike.

The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

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