Thanks for that.
The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section
- Thread starter S.K.C.
- Start date
Thanks for that.
You didn't clarify whether you are 6'1 or 6'10 (very different!) - what's your height in cm?
Regardless, as Sandwich said, if you are over 5'11 you should really be on a large, and trying to ride the medium will always be a compromise. If you are 6'1 (assuming you are fairly proportional) you would want to run 800mm bars on a medium to feel comfortable. Slacker headset cups and forks with more height adjustability (eg. 40) will allow you to increase the wheelbase.
Finally, the Fox RC4 shock makes a big difference to the bike's performance and works significantly better than the DHX5. It requires cutting away the cross braces from the lower link. Correct sag also helps the bike a lot, 33-35% max seated sag unless you are riding very steep tracks often.
1183mm is healthy, the tall upper crown is good (I would do the same if I still ran a Boxxer), and 777 is already a pretty wide bar. It sounds like you have done all the right things already. You could try a wider 800 bar.
My numbers are all very similar to yours except I am 180cm, and I am very comfortable on the bike - however I wouldn't want to be any taller on the same bike. Perhaps your extra height is restricting you a little.
Your experience overall seems strange though, most people seem to think the Sunday is a bike you can instantly feel comfortable on and I felt the same way back in 2005 when I first rode one. Perhaps it's just not the bike for you!
My numbers are all very similar to yours except I am 180cm, and I am very comfortable on the bike - however I wouldn't want to be any taller on the same bike. Perhaps your extra height is restricting you a little.
Your experience overall seems strange though, most people seem to think the Sunday is a bike you can instantly feel comfortable on and I felt the same way back in 2005 when I first rode one. Perhaps it's just not the bike for you!
I haven't spent a lot of time on the Vivid in this frame (just a few runs), however I think the RC4 is the better choice due to its progressive damping setup which matches well with the frame's leverage curve. The Vivid seems to work well in it, however it's still a linear shock. If you go with the RC4 make sure you get the 2011+.
2011 is non-kashima, 2012 has the kashima. Not a big deal either way, however there was a small durability update in 2011 where the compression adjusters are held in the neck, hence worth getting the 11+.
Hey UDI, thanks for the rc4 setting couple of pages back.
Yes, i agree there is No official RC4 setting as IH closed down, (no test riders) before the RC4 came out.
but the baseline rc4 settings, already suggested.
here's the photo of the red anod link with deleted material:
I am on a medium sunday, at 5"11", I switched to the 06 boxxer tall crown and slammed the fork, the fork angle slackened, and it resulted to 46.25 inches wheel base but the bb is now 14.25 inches, Thinking of using offset bushings to lower it, is it OK? But currently do not feel the difference between the stock bb of 13.9 vs. 14.25 when riding.
Yes, i agree there is No official RC4 setting as IH closed down, (no test riders) before the RC4 came out.
but the baseline rc4 settings, already suggested.
here's the photo of the red anod link with deleted material:
I am on a medium sunday, at 5"11", I switched to the 06 boxxer tall crown and slammed the fork, the fork angle slackened, and it resulted to 46.25 inches wheel base but the bb is now 14.25 inches, Thinking of using offset bushings to lower it, is it OK? But currently do not feel the difference between the stock bb of 13.9 vs. 14.25 when riding.
There is no way that a 7 point linkage would work on a sunday right? The links looked similar, just figured I'd see what the deal was.
Not even close to being able to bolt up the 7point links.
My not so so yellow Sunday at Philippines National DH Series Round 2 at Guimaras Island, Iloilo, Philippines..
Yeah, i didn't think so.. just gettin desperate to find a new linkage..
Here is my 06 Sunday.....I sent my DHX 5.0 Coil out to Craig @ Avy to get tuned as it needed a rebuild then ran up on the info about the RC4. My buddy has a spare RC4 off his '12 DHR and he is gonna let me borrow because he went with a Cane Creek DB air, so this is just a spare. I have spare bushings/RWC needle bearing kit.
I plan on hacking the link with my airsaw today, I can pretty much do surgery with it
Nothing Special about my Sunday
06 Sunday
'11 Boxxer R2C2
Avid Code's 203mm F/R
Sun Ringle ADD Wheelset
Truvativ Descendants Crankset 170mm
Transition Pedals
Transition Park & Ride Seat
Easton Vice Seatpost
E13 Guide/Bash
Chromag Bars (780mm) and Stem
Cane Creek Internal headset
Specialized Butcher DH 2.5's (excellent tire)!
'11 X-9 Shifter/Derailer combo
I have the stanchions adjusted right now for HA and have measured about a 63.7ish, I have a lil more room to play with, so I made take it down just a tad. Its pictured with the flat upper mount on, just put the riser on, and bike feels better.
Bike comes in at about 41.0, this is my 1st DH bike, and my 3rd year on it after picking it up for 1300 used complete from Craigslist. Im 5'10, about 195 geared up, and I have beat the hell out of this thing the last 3 years with no issues with trips to Whistler also. When I picked it up it had alot of the original factory 06 components installed. Not a single rattle or play in the whole bike, obviously been doing some updating. I rode a handful of bikes last year contemplating on buying a newer frame-set and just cant find reason to update to another brand. This thread is a huge resource, and I will probably ride this bike till it expires, thanks for all the info contributed.
I plan on hacking the link with my airsaw today, I can pretty much do surgery with it
Nothing Special about my Sunday
06 Sunday
'11 Boxxer R2C2
Avid Code's 203mm F/R
Sun Ringle ADD Wheelset
Truvativ Descendants Crankset 170mm
Transition Pedals
Transition Park & Ride Seat
Easton Vice Seatpost
E13 Guide/Bash
Chromag Bars (780mm) and Stem
Cane Creek Internal headset
Specialized Butcher DH 2.5's (excellent tire)!
'11 X-9 Shifter/Derailer combo
I have the stanchions adjusted right now for HA and have measured about a 63.7ish, I have a lil more room to play with, so I made take it down just a tad. Its pictured with the flat upper mount on, just put the riser on, and bike feels better.
Bike comes in at about 41.0, this is my 1st DH bike, and my 3rd year on it after picking it up for 1300 used complete from Craigslist. Im 5'10, about 195 geared up, and I have beat the hell out of this thing the last 3 years with no issues with trips to Whistler also. When I picked it up it had alot of the original factory 06 components installed. Not a single rattle or play in the whole bike, obviously been doing some updating. I rode a handful of bikes last year contemplating on buying a newer frame-set and just cant find reason to update to another brand. This thread is a huge resource, and I will probably ride this bike till it expires, thanks for all the info contributed.
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What are the bolt sizes for the pre f7 linkage? the upper shock bolts.
Upper shock bolt I suggest going to a fastener store or ACE Hardware and getting a Grade 8 hexhead bolt, washer it up on each side, and use a Nylon insert nut on the other side. 8mm diameter.......Make sure the unthreaded portion of the bolt is enough to cover the bushing width, otherwise if its threaded it will jack up your reducers quick.
edit....
Just measured Bolt is 80mm long, 8mm diameter.
edit....
Just measured Bolt is 80mm long, 8mm diameter.
So Im finally selling my Sunday. Apartment living has made it too difficult to have more than one bike so Im cleaning house of both my Sundays.
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1126873/ If you want any other pics or anything just let me know here or PB and Ill get back to you.
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1126873/ If you want any other pics or anything just let me know here or PB and Ill get back to you.
![IMG_0937[1].JPG](/data/attachments/28/28774-0c2762fc4579643fb8b447ee83241d70.jpg)
aarrrrgghhhh replaced the link, got loads of 638 in there, rebuilt, left it to cure for a couple of days, then looked round and noticed the extra o-rings that I bought still sitting in their packaging! Rage 
Spent the whole weekend on the bike with a borrowed RC4 from a Turner DHR installed since my DHX 5 coil was at Avy getting tuned.
5'11 200lb rider, medium frame, 06 Sunday
160 BO Chamber 1/2 way on BO adjustment
6 HSC
4 LSC
450 Spring
Bike felt good on a variety of conditions, loose, mud, rock, shale, cased some jumps haha... for the most part rode pretty sloppy conditions. Low speed compliance wasnt the best, but it could of been setup on lsc or tire pressure.
Just got back the Avy Tuned DHX 5 from Craig Yesterday, will be looking to get some seat time next weekend if I can make it back to the hill for some honest comparison. Making the trip down from Alaska to Whistler later this month also, might compare there to.
5'11 200lb rider, medium frame, 06 Sunday
160 BO Chamber 1/2 way on BO adjustment
6 HSC
4 LSC
450 Spring
Bike felt good on a variety of conditions, loose, mud, rock, shale, cased some jumps haha... for the most part rode pretty sloppy conditions. Low speed compliance wasnt the best, but it could of been setup on lsc or tire pressure.
Just got back the Avy Tuned DHX 5 from Craig Yesterday, will be looking to get some seat time next weekend if I can make it back to the hill for some honest comparison. Making the trip down from Alaska to Whistler later this month also, might compare there to.
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nojoke-
I posted this in a different thread, but you probably missed it:
For DH you generally want 30-35% sag, a 450 spring on the RC4 for your weight would generally be considered too firm (as would 25% sag). Perhaps your application is not DH racing or your preferences are very different from normal, however for best suspension performance I'd consider trying a ~350/375/400, the whole point of running an RC4 is to allow a more supple beginning stroke for better bump performance, while maintaining sufficient progression at the end. The bottom out adjuster should be fully closed on the Sunday. As a general rule, the RC4 also requires a lower spring rate than other shocks for a given sag percentage due to increased air-spring effect in the damper. It's worth nothing that there are large variances in steel spring labeled rate, so your 400 and 450 might be closer to each other than you think.
I posted this in a different thread, but you probably missed it:
For DH you generally want 30-35% sag, a 450 spring on the RC4 for your weight would generally be considered too firm (as would 25% sag). Perhaps your application is not DH racing or your preferences are very different from normal, however for best suspension performance I'd consider trying a ~350/375/400, the whole point of running an RC4 is to allow a more supple beginning stroke for better bump performance, while maintaining sufficient progression at the end. The bottom out adjuster should be fully closed on the Sunday. As a general rule, the RC4 also requires a lower spring rate than other shocks for a given sag percentage due to increased air-spring effect in the damper. It's worth nothing that there are large variances in steel spring labeled rate, so your 400 and 450 might be closer to each other than you think.
Thanks Odi, I missed your post on the RC4 setup. Only reason I gave that 450 a shot was just to try it out. I ran a 400 last year with great success, and can only recall bottoming the bike out maybe once or twice with the DHX 5 on the bike, and that was overshooting the wood bridge drop on upper freightrain @ Whistler.
I put the Avy tuned DHX 5 Coil back on the bike today with the 400 from last year, this is what I plan on running from now on. Every single spring calculator I have seen calls out a 400 spring for 28-30% with a 195-205 rider weight. I ride fairly tech loose, and rooty stuff locally here in Alaska, so small bump is important. More than likely why the 400/ DHX combo felt better last year than this RC4 did over the weekend. Sounds like I just missed the setup completely!!!!
Would you recommend a stiffer spring for the park? i.e Whistler? Making a trip later this month.
edit just checked both springs on the DHX 5 coil from avy.
32% sag with the 400, and 22% on the 450. Both springs with 2 turns.
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IMO the RC4 is the best shock for the bike (the stock DHX5 with the boost valve / propedal assembly intact will work OK, but any tune that removes that assembly will not really benefit the Sunday as it works best with a progessive shock), but I think the key part you missed is that the RC4 allows you to run a softer spring for better small bump compliance without having to make the sacrifice of bottoming out excessively or blowing through travel.
The place to start is with the BO adjuster fully closed and 150psi (160 is fine, but start at 150), and if your 400 is giving you 32% sag on a DHX5, to achieve the same sag on an RC4 (given the same chamber psi) you would always need a lower (not higher) spring rate. I would try a 350 if you have access to one, but ideally a 375 if that is an option at all. Worst case, the 400 with 0 turns.
If you read back over the pages I've explained in much greater detail how/why this works. I'd run 30-35% sag at the bikepark just like anywhere else, definitely not stiffer than usual.
Hope that is of some use. You already have the best shock for the bike on hand, but the setup is pretty far off what I'd personally consider ideal. A few tweaks and you may enjoy it a lot more, especially on loose/rooty stuff.
The place to start is with the BO adjuster fully closed and 150psi (160 is fine, but start at 150), and if your 400 is giving you 32% sag on a DHX5, to achieve the same sag on an RC4 (given the same chamber psi) you would always need a lower (not higher) spring rate. I would try a 350 if you have access to one, but ideally a 375 if that is an option at all. Worst case, the 400 with 0 turns.
If you read back over the pages I've explained in much greater detail how/why this works. I'd run 30-35% sag at the bikepark just like anywhere else, definitely not stiffer than usual.
Hope that is of some use. You already have the best shock for the bike on hand, but the setup is pretty far off what I'd personally consider ideal. A few tweaks and you may enjoy it a lot more, especially on loose/rooty stuff.
Thanks Again,
I have a 350 spring here at the house also. Your starting to make me wish I didnt get the Avy tune
which added the SSD and turned propedal into a low speed adjustment, something it lacked before. I may give the RC4 another shot with the small spring and the adjustments you listed, im thinking of buying the shock from my buddy since it was a loaner in the 1st place. Thanks Again for the help!
No worries... I mean by all means if you prefer the Avy run that, and if not, I'm sure it's worth good money and a great shock in other frames.
If you have a 350 to try I'd definitely try it with the RC4 - what do you weigh exactly with your gear on? I'm 180 with gear and use a 300 spring to give you an idea, I run fairly strong compression damping settings (mostly HS and lot a lot of LS, which seems to give good support without adding much harshness on the Fox gear).
If you're 200 without gear then the 400 spring might be the one, but try both. Perhaps the 350 with 1-2 turns, BO closed / 160 psi, a decent amount on the HSC adjuster (just a little LSC - I'm running 5 clicks if it helps).
If you have a 350 to try I'd definitely try it with the RC4 - what do you weigh exactly with your gear on? I'm 180 with gear and use a 300 spring to give you an idea, I run fairly strong compression damping settings (mostly HS and lot a lot of LS, which seems to give good support without adding much harshness on the Fox gear).
If you're 200 without gear then the 400 spring might be the one, but try both. Perhaps the 350 with 1-2 turns, BO closed / 160 psi, a decent amount on the HSC adjuster (just a little LSC - I'm running 5 clicks if it helps).
I´ve been playing with rc4 settings for dh racing since I intalled it on my sunday and I ended up having:
Rider 72kg gear on.
300 spring with 0 preload
145 psi
sag 27%
rebound 9 from closed
lsc 10 from full closed (20 max)
hsc 4 from full closed (12 max)
BO full closed
Udi I tried your settings and I for racing I think they are too soft, I mean, the hsc was good, but with so little lsc, I was losing a lot of travel in places I shouldnt.
I think more lsc and less hsc is the way to go IF you are racing, because it lets you take the big hits well and be high in the travel for better positioning let the bike get to speed fast
I found too much LSC deadens the ride, and the Sunday is already a pretty 'dead' feeling bike when it comes to getting pop off jumps and obstacles. It also decreases small bump sensitivity. That's my main reasoning for using the HSC for support rather than the LSC.
Personally I found the HSC full closed gives pretty strong mid-speed compression support without inducing any real harshness (Fox seem to have class-leading high speed valving), however I run 150psi - I actually found 5psi is enough to make a significant difference (I tried 145 previously). I've also been riding mostly steep tracks for the last two years, so most of my support is needed in the fork (which I've valved firmer than stock) rather than the shock.
These (compression) settings are very personal though, and your riding might be very different to mine. Keep in mind our actual spring rates may vary by 10-20% too! If you've found what works for you then stick with it.
Personally I found the HSC full closed gives pretty strong mid-speed compression support without inducing any real harshness (Fox seem to have class-leading high speed valving), however I run 150psi - I actually found 5psi is enough to make a significant difference (I tried 145 previously). I've also been riding mostly steep tracks for the last two years, so most of my support is needed in the fork (which I've valved firmer than stock) rather than the shock.
These (compression) settings are very personal though, and your riding might be very different to mine. Keep in mind our actual spring rates may vary by 10-20% too! If you've found what works for you then stick with it.
How do you guys get accurate on the boost valve pressure?
Do you trust the pressure is correct after unscrewing the pump, or are you using a gauge to check?
In theory some pressure is lost when you attach the pump, but shouldn't when you remove.
Practice/logic however seems that you must lose some pressure when you detach?!
Maybe I should just ignore my OCD, still interesting to hear your thoughts!
I just bought one of these pumps, seems good on the fork, still don't trust it on the shock: http://www.topeak.com/products/Pumps/PocketShockDXG
Now considering this (looks like it will not fit 'in' the bottom out adjuster though): http://www.topeak.com/products/Pumps/smartgauge_d2
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I don't think it matters hugely as long as you do it the same way every time. When you detach a conventional shock pump most of the noise you hear is the air leaving the pump itself. But regardless, the difference between 150 and 145 psi would still be 5psi whether the actual pressure was 148 and 143 or whatever it may be, and I think most people use a normal shock pump so the numbers should be comparable.
A friend of mine uses that Topeak and it seems nice. Risse also make an attachment for a normal pump that allows you to pull the fitting out which might be more accurate too. I've used it before. But I wouldn't really bother buying either for the reasons mentioned above.
I think the gauge is a bad idea as it will use some pressure to take a reading given the small chamber size, and like you said it won't fit anyway.
A friend of mine uses that Topeak and it seems nice. Risse also make an attachment for a normal pump that allows you to pull the fitting out which might be more accurate too. I've used it before. But I wouldn't really bother buying either for the reasons mentioned above.
I think the gauge is a bad idea as it will use some pressure to take a reading given the small chamber size, and like you said it won't fit anyway.
Like udi said above, when you remove the pump your hearing the air leave the pump not the shock. You loose air when you attach the pump, has to fill the pump and gauge first. With the handle pushed all the way in I found I loose 10psi. If I pump my shock up to say 150psi, remove the pump. Then with the handle pushed in, attach the pump I read 140psi, but add the 10psi I lost I sti have the 150psi. So the pumps are fairly accurate. Of course though you need to pump it back up to the desired psi afterwards.
See above, you're not losing 15psi from the shock when you remove the pump, you only 'lose' that amount when you re-connect the pump and the air from the shock fills the pump.