[MMike]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/next/2001779799_nextlimitvote02.html

Ok....only the first paragraph or two of this article has to do with my point.

Election day just passed here in Seattle, and this question has been bugging me for a while. I'm not sure I agree with the whole "initiative" thing.

Basically any ol' someone can get it into his head that...say, all citizens be required to hop on one foot wherever they go. So he can got get a form, have a bunch of people sign a petition that agree that this would be a great idea and then it makes it on the ballot as intiative "I-123". Then everyone gets to vote yay or nay.

This is what happened with I-695 a few years ago. This guy decided that car license fees where too high. So he got I-695 going which said that car tabs should be a flat $30 fee. It made it on the ballot, and sure enough it passed. Now are car tabs are dirt cheap. Hooray!

Of course then the gov't was left struggling to make up for the lost income and was forced to cut other stuff.

But this was a high profile thing. It was on the news every day, and everyone knew what it was.

However there are TONS of other initiatives that people are expected to vote on, and no-one has any idea what they are about. And as a result, I know for a fact that a lot of people don't even bother to vote because they can't be bothered to research each initiative. And really, who would have time for all that? Shouldn't there be people whose job it is to know what all this is about?

Enter the parlimentary system.

We commonwealth folk, elect members of parliment to bring up these "initiatives" and vote on them for us, as our representatives. Now some would argue that this takes away peoples' right to have a voice and all that.

But on the other hand do you really want to know Cletus the circus freak has to say....or letting people randomly vote yes or no on something they aren't completely informed on?

I-695 was a great example. Of course paying $30 for your tabs instead of $600 is attractive. That's as far as most people think..."Uh huhuhuhh....yeah....$30 is better".... but there were consequences that I'm sure many laypersons (lay people?) didn't consider

So, are these things better left to elected representatives? It worked well for the Romans...

 

[Damn True]

How is that Roman Parliment doing these days anyway?

You bring up a good point. However the "inititive" system has checks against it as well.

Case in point: Prop 187 in CA a few years back. The jist of it was that if passed it would prevent illegal aliens from gaining access to public health and education. Makes sense no? They aren't paying taxes to support the systems. They are taking up services that would normally go to those that do. And, they are here illegally ferrchissakes.

As you might imagine it passed by an overwhelming margin despite the liberal bent of the majority of the states voters.

HOWEVER, the aclu stepped in, took the state to court and the (I believe) 13th Dist. court ruled that the measure was unconstitutional. The whole thing is still in the appeal process.

Reserving commentary on the aclu and the issue of a minority group overturning the will of the VAST (over 70% if I recall) majority of voters.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Damn True
Case in point: Prop 187 in CA a few years back. The jist of it was that if passed it would prevent illegal aliens from gaining access to public health and education. Makes sense no? They aren't paying taxes to support the systems. They are taking up services that would normally go to those that do. And, they are here illegally ferrchissakes.

As you might imagine it passed by an overwhelming margin despite the liberal bent of the majority of the states voters.

So what do these "illegal" people do in California?

They must all be criminals.



Or maybe they work for some sort of a living.

The fact is they are here, and most of "them" do work. Usually for some "legal" who is paying less and certainlly not paying labor and industry taxes and the like.

God forbid they want medical care when it's needed.

These "illegal" people are part the economy and deserve access to the miniscule ammount of public services offered to "legal" poor people.

Or maybe you Christians in Cali could provide some services to the "illegal" humans. Check out the book of Ruth or the story of the Samaritan for inspiration.

 

[Tenchiro]

I have known quite a few illegal immigrants, all of them had jobs where they paid taxes to the state and federal governments. They got nothing in return, except treated like sh!t most of the time simply because they are Mexican.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ummbikes
So what do these "illegal" people do in California?

They must all be criminals.



Or maybe they work for some sort of a living.

The fact is they are here, and most of "them" do work. Usually for some "legal" who is paying less and certainlly not paying labor and industry taxes and the like.

God forbid they want medical care when it's needed.

These "illegal" people are part the economy and deserve access to the miniscule ammount of public services offered to "legal" poor people.

Or maybe you Christians in Cali could provide some services to the "illegal" humans. Check out the book of Ruth or the story of the Samaritan for inspiration.

the US has work visas like any other country.

"illegal" is right.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
I have known quite a few illegal immigrants, all of them had jobs where they paid taxes to the state and federal governments. They got nothing in return, except treated like sh!t most of the time simply because they are Mexican.

Well, that sucks for sure, but during my trips to the southwest, i dont recall ever seeing any signs near the border that read "Hey fellas, c'mon over. Our country is way better than yours. Dont worry about the paperwork. We'll take care of you"

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Well, that sucks for sure, but during my trips to the southwest, i dont recall ever seeing any signs near the border that read "Hey fellas, c'mon over. Our country is way better than yours. Dont worry about the paperwork. We'll take care of you"

The problem with getting a visa to come to our country from Mexico, is you have to prove that you have at least $1000 in the bank, otherwise no go. I have read the average wage there is about $30 a week. Couple that with a corrupt government and banditos and people just want to get the hell out. Most people that I have known who come here, send most of what they make back to Mexico to support their families there. Their biggest crime usually is that they are here undocumented, mostly they just want better lives for themselves.

I know a guy who has multiple scars on his head from being pistol whipped. One time his family had one fo their sons kidnapped, and then brought to the front door. They basically ransomed him for everything of value in the house, and emptied the place moving man style.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
The problem with getting a visa to come to our country from Mexico, is you have to prove that you have at least $1000 in the bank, otherwise no go. I have read the average wage there is about $30 a week. Couple that with a corrupt government and banditos and people just want to get the hell out. Most people that I have known who come here, send most of what they make back to Mexico to support their families there. Their biggest crime usually is that they are here undocumented, mostly they just want better lives for themselves.

Well no kiddin' man,

But that doesnt mean we just open up the borders to help the opressed. There's a process for a reason. Perhaps the process needs reviewed, but skipping around the law technically makes you "illegal". If i go stealing bread from a store because im hungry, yeah, i did it to survive, but that doesnt make it ok..even if you can sympathise.

 

[MMike]

Originally posted by Tenchiro


I know a guy who has multiple scars on his head from being pistol whipped.

Mmmmmm....."pistol whip"....

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Well no kiddin' man,

But that doesnt mean we just open up the borders to help the opressed. There's a process for a reason. Perhaps the process needs reviewed, but skipping around the law technically makes you "illegal". If i go stealing bread from a store because im hungry, yeah, i did it to survive, but that doesnt make it ok..even if you can sympathise.

So what should be done to people who HIRE these "illegal" human beings?

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Well no kiddin' man,

But that doesnt mean we just open up the borders to help the opressed. There's a process for a reason. Perhaps the process needs reviewed, but skipping around the law technically makes you "illegal". If i go stealing bread from a store because im hungry, yeah, i did it to survive, but that doesnt make it ok..even if you can sympathise.

I look at it this way, our country was founded by immigrants. That is one of the things that makes it great. It disheartens me that this coutry is so xenophobic now. Most of the immigrants I have met are simply here to make a better life for them and their families.

Plus there are way too many natural born sh!theads as is.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by ummbikes
So what should be done to people who HIRE these "illegal" human beings?

I believe they are subject to some pretty heavy penalties though I sincerely doubt they are enforced.