[Pesqueeb]

I don't like discussing that day, or "where I was". It makes me physically ill to think about it. In some ways, its more traumatic to me than being run over was. My accident was a personal, mostly physical event that challenged only my willingness to commit to my own recovery. While september 11th effected me personally, physically, in no way what so ever, its so much harder in my mind to deal with.
The images, the fact that in the lounge N8 uses the term 'islamofascist' in all seriousness, the macro "what does it mean" aspects of it tie my stomach into ropes. I have two friends, my best, whose two oldest (girls) I attended both their births and whom I love as much as my own daughter. They have never known this country when we weren't at "war". I personally can not think on that and feel anything other than we have profoundly failed. We failed those girls, we failed the memories of all those that died on sept 11th, we failed those in the military and we dishonored what they would sacrifice when we allowed a decade long, preemptive war against a country that had NOTHING to do with the attack.

What I feel today, is rage. Not at a bunch of backwards cave dwellers with an over inflated sense of importance, but at myself, and ourselves. Rage at the lost opportunities, rage at the lives needlessly thrown away, rage at a nation unwilling to share in sacrifice, a nation too busy with "dancing with the stars" or "american idol", a nation that wears its patriotism on its sleeve and actually thinks that endless consumption at Walmart was the patriotic thing to do on sept 12th.

I don't know where I'm going with this, its mostly stream of consciousness stuff. Maybe its just my memory of today, or maybe I'm just a bitch with a sandy vagina, either is possible.

 

[sanjuro]

After 10 years of arguing about every stupid aspect of 9/11, I'm glad Osama is dead (by my man Barack), and we can start moving on.

 

[jonKranked]

Can I still say dune coon?

 

[stevew]

there you go squeeb....letting N8 get under your skin.

 

[Pesqueeb]

there you go squeeb....letting N8 get under your skin.

Well, not N8 in particular, he's just a specific and easily recognizable example of the attitude/mentality that represents how badly we fvcked/squandered the whole thing.

 

[MMike]

Well, not N8 in particular, he's just a specific and easily recognizable example of the attitude/mentality that represents how badly we fvcked/squandered the whole thing.

I still take it personally.

I guess he takes it personally because he personifies the stereotype that they were attacking....

 

[stevew]

a profile in courage....

I’m not going to allow comments on this post, for obvious reasons.

what a pussy.

 

[dante]

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it brought us together as a nation as nothing I've ever seen in my lifetime. I'll admit that I felt patriotic when every house I drove by had flags out the day after, and when Bush was standing down at Ground Zero with a bullhorn. I even felt patriotic when we "invaded" Afghanistan with air strikes aimed at allowing the Northern Alliance to fight back against the Taliban (and I'd actually been following the civil war there even before 9/11, so it was doubly-sweet).

But not even a year later, Bush and his cronies were insinuating that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. Cheney went YEARS claiming that there was an Al Qaeda / Saddam Hussein connection, long after it was proven false. The Republicans held a war authorization vote in the month before the fall midterm elections so that if the Democrats went against it they could use for political gain. We invaded another country with tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people dead, and one of the justifications of it was 9/11...

The right-wingers used vague terms like "they", as in "they attacked us on Sept 11th", or as N8 has so eloquently pointed out, islamofascists. Forget stating that a relatively isolated terror group in the mountains of Aghanistan attacked us, the language, the imagery, the "us or them" verbiage, the term Crusade, all invoked in the American public's mind the idea that we were fighting a much larger enemy than the couple thousand terrorists that we actually were.

9/11 also brought about the idea that crass consumerism was somehow "patriotic". Spending money you don't have on things you don't need was going to help the country and the economy. It lead to Americans going deeper into debt than they ever had, and a reduced savings rate over the course of the next decade.

9/11 has also been used as a scapegoat against any criticism of GWB's fiscal policies, and how there were 2 recessions on during his term. The jobs lost never returned, but to point out GWB's failings is to invite "but 9/11 caused the Recession" which is bullsh!t. The Recession was between 12 and 18mo afterwards, with little direct correlation to the attacks.

9/11 was used by Rudy Giuliani so much when he was running for president that The Onion had a piece called "Rudy Giuliani running for president of 9/11".

And so on. I didn't post this yesterday, since I still do feel that 9/11 should be about the day itself and not all of the political bullsh!t that followed. But yes, I totally agree with you, Krugman, and everyone else that's been pointing this out.

 

[Pesqueeb]

a profile in courage....



what a pussy.

I think he's wrong. Not about the reaction being shameful, I agree with that, but with the scapegoating. No body hates to defend W. more than me, but ultimately his power and his actions are derived/allowed by the masses. I've quoted it here before,

"People deserve the government they get, and they deserve to get it good and hard." - H.L. Mencken

We allowed it to happen, like sheep. Nobody questioned, nobody called bullsh*t, the few that did we were told "Hated Freedom®" or "didn't support the troops" and that was swallowed hook, line, and sinker too. I recognize that its comforting to blame another, it removes the responsibility from your self, makes it easier on your conscious, but IMHO its disingenuous. This is about a failure, of us, as a people, as a country, and/or a national pathos. The analogy to 9/11 has always been Pearl Harbor and I don't think they could be more different. After pearl harbor, we actually declared a full blown constitutional, Congressionaly approved, war. People, hell, whole families joined the military, bought war bonds, planted victory gardens, scrap metal and recycling drives went on, the country committed. What did we do? Gave blood for a week, then went back to "life as normal" at the insistence of "leadership" and we didn't think twice about it. We were told we could support the troops and the country by going on our vacations and buying Chinese junk at your local big box, the so called "patriot act" was approved almost unanimously, and nobody stopped to think, "Wait, what?".

Why the fvck is that?

 

[Pesqueeb]

Dante's post made me think of another great shift in mentality. After Pearl Harbor, when you bought a war bond, you eventually got that money back with interest. You were making an investment in your government, your country. After 9/11 we put sh*t we didn't need on the credit card and we paid someone else interest, most likely a big bank/corporation that 10 year later was going to foreclose on your home and/or would have to be bailed out by the government at your expense, all in the name of "patriotism".

 

[valve bouncer]

Seems to get more maudlin by the year. I get the same feeling here every year on August 15th and I suspect subsequent 3/11's will be the same.

 

[Jim Mac]

After 9/11 we put sh*t we didn't need on the credit card and we paid someone else interest, most likely a big bank/corporation that 10 year later was going to foreclose on your home and/or would have to be bailed out by the government at your expense, all in the name of "patriotism".

This is essentially 'Wal Mart' patriotism (done on the cheap, with little foresight on the consequences). It's emblematic of the society that we've become.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Pesqueeb & Dante = must spread rep!! Well said!!!

 

[jimmydean]

Pesqueeb & Dante = must spread rep!! Well said!!!

I went down and (re)joined the Navy Reserves withing days after 9/11 so I could do something about it. When we (as a country) went into Iraq, I was sick to my stomach. I said it was wrong before (and took a lot of sh!t about it) and I still say it was a mistake now. When I hear about all the money that was made (and still being made) by companies like Haliburton who had no sense of patriotism or any care or support for the actual troops on the ground, it makes me ill.

What happened to companies doing whatever it took to support the country/effort?

 

[JohnE]

I was supportive of the invasion of Afghanistan...training camps, hotbed of terror etc. When Shrub and the other idiots in charge started rattling sabers about Iraq and Saddaam, I said whoa...invading another soveriegn nation with no evidence of anything, ever. Shrub looking to please Daddy, Cheney looking to furhter enrich Haliburton and his cronies, not listening to pros like Colin Powell and his insistence on an exit strategy, and then throwing him under the bus after it all went (predictably) south. I am still waiting on the proof of the WMDs they had. I am sure they are out there in the desert somewhere...why would they lie to us?

 

[jimmydean]

I was supportive of the invasion of Afghanistan...training camps, hotbed of terror etc. When Shrub and the other idiots in charge started rattling sabers about Iraq and Saddaam, I said whoa...invading another soveriegn nation with no evidence of anything, ever. Shrub looking to please Daddy, Cheney looking to furhter enrich Haliburton and his cronies, not listening to pros like Colin Powell and his insistence on an exit strategy, and then throwing him under the bus after it all went (predictably) south. I am still waiting on the proof of the WMDs they had. I am sure they are out there in the desert somewhere...why would they lie to us?

Based on what I've read, even Daddy told him it was a bad idea. Powell was the only member I had respect for and I lost a little of that respect when he went through with it. But he also regained some of that respect when he chose to step off for round 2 of the Shrub years.

 

[dante]

What happened to companies doing whatever it took to support the country/effort?

Or individuals... In WW2 we had a massive income tax hike and people voluntarily bought war bonds. Today people are bitching and moaning about a small increase in their income tax rate...

 

[dante]

By the way, thanks for posting this in the P&WN forum since I'm pretty sure N8's not allowed to post here as a condition of his unbanishment...

 

[eaterofdog]

I'm starting to like this guy. Of course, the neocon shills are pooping themselves over this. Fvck those sh!tbags, they don't know what being American means.

That's right, I said it.

 

[Pesqueeb]

By the way, thanks for posting this in the P&WN forum since I'm pretty sure N8's not allowed to post here as a condition of his unbanishment...

Yea, I did that on purpose. A post on facebook by one of the girls I mention about being only 7 months old but still how sad everything made her, plus N8's statement planted the seeds of the OP. Plus I figured this was a better place for it, I didn't want to poop on the 9/11 thread in the lounge. I had gotten the feeling that my thoughts might not be well received given the direction the thread had taken. To be honest, I had expected large amounts of blow back even here. I'm very surprised by the feedback its received both here and on facebook, and the fact that apparently I was parroting Krugman damn near verbatim. I had expected my opinion on the matter to be pretty unpopular. I'm glad others are having the same thoughts. It had occurred to me that maybe it was just the brain injury talking.

 

[jimmydean]

A lot of my service member friend (the smart ones) feel much the same way I do. I still feel we could have done much better in Afghanistan (still might have been bad, but not AS BAD?) had we not went into Iraq. WMD's or no.

And I agree with Dante as well about individual effort (like me signing up for the reserves even though I wasn't needed, I was there in case I was).

I was looking over some documentaries I had in the queue and decided to watch Hot Coffee over the weekend. The start was pretty good and covered the case against McDonalds and the scalding coffee. But towards the end they covered mandatory arbitration and Halliburton.

Jamie Leigh Jones was a 20-year-old young woman working her fourth day on the job in Baghdad for contractor Halliburton/KBR in 2005, when she says she was drugged and gang-raped by seven U.S contractors and held captive by two KBR guards in a shipping container. But more than four years after the alleged crimes occurred, Jones is still waiting for her day in court because when she signed her employment contract, she lost her rights to a jury trial and, instead, was forced into having her claims decided through secret, binding arbitration.

So you have a company that has no bid contracts to "support the troops" and yet let things like this happen with no recourse for the victim. You can't tell me stuff like this happened when women worked in factories building war machines for the military during WW2.

Halliburton not only made a sh!t ton of money "supporting the troops" but that there were DIRECT TIES to the VP and his stock values. Why is/was this NOT a huge red flag on multiple levels? Conflict of interest at the least.

<edit> I just saw this, holy sh!t.

The former American contractor that said she was raped by her co-workers while on the job in Iraq is now being sued by her old employers for $2 million.... (To cover legal fees)

An investigation by the Department of Justice&#8217;s Crime Victims Office was never carried out due to a lack of jurisdiction over private contractors overseas. KBR had originally tried to keep Jones from taking the case to court, arguing that her contract required internal arbitration in lieu of jury trials, though the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals allowed her to go forward with the suit, where her attorneys brought up charges of negligence, negligent undertaking, sexual harassment and others.

 

[Silver]

Halliburton not only made a sh!t ton of money "supporting the troops" but that there were DIRECT TIES to the VP and his stock values. Why is/was this NOT a huge red flag on multiple levels? Conflict of interest at the least.

Because it was bipartisan.

Dianne Feinstein didn't recuse herself from any of the votes...

http://www.bohemian.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feinstein-0704.html

 

[jimmydean]

Because it was bipartisan.

Dianne Feinstein didn't recuse herself from any of the votes...

http://www.bohemian.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feinstein-0704.html

And this is why there should be more transparency as to who's hand is in the cookie jar to begin with. I could give a damn what side of the isle they sit on.

 

[stevew]

I'm starting to like this guy. Of course, the neocon shills are pooping themselves over this. Fvck those sh!tbags, they don't know what being American means.

That's right, I said it.

echo.

 

[eaterofdog]

Yeah, I don't click on your sh!t











(kidding)

 

[sanjuro]

See this one?

What happened after 9/11 &#8212; and I think even people on the right know this, whether they admit it or not &#8212; was deeply shameful. The atrocity should have been a unifying event, but instead it became a wedge issue. Fake heroes like Bernie Kerik, Rudy Giuliani, and, yes, George W. Bush raced to cash in on the horror. And then the attack was used to justify an unrelated war the neocons wanted to fight, for all the wrong reasons.

Rumsfeld's not happy: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/about-that-paul-krugman-allegation-of-911-shame/2011/03/03/gIQAdwBMNK_blog.html

 

[Pesqueeb]

So I had the point of my OP driven home in the most heart breaking way possible yesterday. I have alluded to the fact that one of the girls posted on FB about 9/11, and I responded with

It occurred to me sometime back, I don't recall why now, that you and your sister have pretty much never know this country when we weren't at "war". It gives me the most profound sadness and gut wrenching desire to apologize to you both. My feelings are more complex than that I think, but that's all I have words for.

last night she responded with

well we are not really at war that i know of??who are we at war with??

I'll be honest, it made me cry, the first time I've gotten teary eyed about 9/11, since 9/11. She will be 11 in Febuary. How the fvck do you answer that question?

 

[stoney]

Cite the definition of war (from the Webster's) and ask her how our actions in Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq differ.

 

[Silver]

Cite the definition of war (from the Webster's) and ask her how our actions in Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq differ.

We're not at war in Libya. According to the war criminal with the Nobel Peace Prize, US actions don't even rise to the level of hostilities.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Cite the definition of war (from the Webster's) and ask her how our actions in Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq differ.

She's 10, lets not over think it.

 

[stoney]

We're not at war in Libya. According to the war criminal with the Nobel Peace Prize, US actions don't even rise to the level of hostilities.

war [wawr] noun, verb, warred, war·ring, adjective
noun
1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.

2. a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.

3. a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.

4. active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.

5. aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.


Yep, we're at war.

 

[stoney]

She's 10, lets not over think it.

Then just re-post the definition I wrote below. Hopefully it gives her the chance to learn something new.

 

[Silver]

war [wawr] noun, verb, warred, war·ring, adjective
noun
1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.

2. a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.

3. a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.

4. active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.

5. aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.


Yep, we're at war.

It's cute that you think a bunch of people (the American Public) who are unable to use a dictionary are going to be swayed by something like the definition of a word.

 

[stoney]

It's cute that you think a bunch of people (the American Public) who are unable to use a dictionary are going to be swayed by something like the definition of a word.

Not in the slightest. I prefer cynicism regarding the current disposition of the American public.

 

[Silver]

Not in the slightest. I prefer cynicism regarding the current disposition of the American public.

Ah. In that case, I clearly agree with you. Yes, we're at war. We're not happy unless someone is blowing up, somewhere.

 

[dump]

also worth mentioning, Sept 11, 1973

 

[Pesqueeb]

Not in the slightest. I prefer cynicism regarding the current disposition of the American public.

Ah. In that case, I clearly agree with you. Yes, we're at war. We're not happy unless someone is blowing up, somewhere.

How do you tell that to a ten year old girl? Seriously, how? *

This is what I meant. We, here, recognize/sense that things are TOTALLY FVCKED, because we have perspective. Makayla has grown up in a world where the zeitgeist is paranoia, war profiteering, suspension of habeus corpus, etc, etc. George Orwell must be rolling in his fvcking grave. While the rest of us are bitter, jaded, old farts, I'm not going to be the one to place that on her. I guess I'm just angry that she can't be that innocent/naive for ever, and I'm a little jealous too.



*edit. Thats not to say I disagree with either of you. I just don't relish the act of the messenger.

 

[Silver]

*edit. Thats not to say I disagree with either of you. I just don't relish the act of the messenger.

**** man, wait until she's older or she specifically asks.

Or just sit down and watch Star Wars with her (Episode 4 will do) and after it's done tell here that the US is the Empire, not the Rebels. She'll get that.

 

[KavuRider]

Or just sit down and watch Star Wars with her (Episode 4 will do) and after it's done tell here that the US is the Empire, not the Rebels. She'll get that.

Must spread

 

[Pesqueeb]

**** man, wait until she's older or she specifically asks.

Or just sit down and watch Star Wars with her (Episode 4 will do) and after it's done tell here that the US is the Empire, not the Rebels. She'll get that.

Well, she kind of did. I guess maybe I'm the one over thinking it, but your right, a trip back to p-town and a night with the girls @ Powell's is definitely due. I talked to her mom for about an hour today on this subject, and it was comforting for me to hear her say that she didn't know what to say to the kids either. They don't exactly lean as far left as I do, but they aren't dummies either.