[Sandwich]

Ok, I gotta ask. You couldn't get DH04s/M4s to work nor Gustavs?

No, I got them to work fine. I could bleed the dho4s in a parking lot with body armor on. I did multiple times. I had them working perfectly, in the lot. As soon as you got on them in a stressful situation, they were worthless. I believe it was due to the small pad size compared to any other pad. They howled constantly. They faded instantly. And he when you got back to the lot, they worked perfectly with zero compression in the lever. I hope you're talking about the m4s, and not the dh04s, because the dh04 was a terrible brake, but it looked nice. Mine even had the mini levers.

The Gustavs were set up fine, they just had huge lever blades, three finger style, so I was never fully comfortable squeezing them. Combine that with a wet day at highland and the wheels broke free instantly. I'm sure I could have gotten them sorted out in time, but I sold the bike before investing in two finger levers.

 

[Sandwich]

i've never been one for upgrade-itis. i even have a set of 13 year old 755 xt's on my big bike. i'm the kind of guy that just kills it on any bike regardless of geo, suspension setup, or whatever the kids are raving about these days. after almost 40 years of riding, i never make excuses, i adapt. even if i jumped on a bike i'd never seen before, it would take me about 30 seconds to not even notice anymore. not saying there aren't better products out there, but i guarantee i am equally as fast as most even with my 68 degree HA, 14"+ bb and "outdated" parts. anyone i ride with can easily attest to this...

This isn't upgrade itis. This was like switching from a quadra 5 to fox 40.

 

[norbar]

The Gustavs were set up fine, they just had huge lever blades, three finger style, so I was never fully comfortable squeezing them. Combine that with a wet day at highland and the wheels broke free instantly. I'm sure I could have gotten them sorted out in time, but I sold the bike before investing in two finger levers.

They were never for 3 fingers. It was easy to use them with one. Though I know most people also didn't like the long levers on the saints and I love them. Good if you have long fingers.

 

[Sandwich]

MAGURA's Gustav M is a serious DH monster, nearly 100g heavier than any other brake here. The big boxed-reservoir lever is solidly mounted in a hinged clamp body, which makes it easy to take on and off, and the full three finger lever blade gives masses of extra braking leverage. Add a standard rotor size of 210mm, grabbed with long, organic soft compound pads, and this is the most powerful brake in this test.

http://old.magura.com/en/products/older-products/disc-brakes-2007/prod/gustav-m-17/info/press.html from MBUK

They had separate two finger levers, which you could order for something like $40, to replace them, but the reach was still too far out (In the early 2000s, apparently everybody had size 14 hands) for me to comfortably brake with one or two fingers, which is admittedly all you need with gustavs.

http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/06-gustav-m-aftermaket-2-finger-levers-184737.html

The saint blades are probably an inch shorter.

 

[norbar]

Guess I never got the memo. Used it with one finger and they felt great. Just grab it by the end of the lever and it feels fine.

 

[Sandwich]

Guess I never got the memo. Used it with one finger and they felt great. Just grab it by the end of the lever and it feels fine.

jesus, how long are your fingers, then? My brake levers were probably three inches from the bar (at the closest setting) at the end. You must be a hit with the ladies if you're able to wrap a finger around the end and brake comfortably with your hand still on the bar.

 

[Sandwich]

 

[Jm_]

No, I got them to work fine. I could bleed the dho4s in a parking lot with body armor on. I did multiple times. I had them working perfectly, in the lot. As soon as you got on them in a stressful situation, they were worthless. I believe it was due to the small pad size compared to any other pad. They howled constantly. They faded instantly. And he when you got back to the lot, they worked perfectly with zero compression in the lever. I hope you're talking about the m4s, and not the dh04s, because the dh04 was a terrible brake, but it looked nice. Mine even had the mini levers.

Well...5 years ago you had THIS to say about the Hopes:

Hope Dh-04's
I have two sets of these brakes, and I really like them. They usually work fine and suffer very little fade and don't really lack power. I want to update my brakes this year with fresh stainless lines and new brakes and rotors.

Who makes the best/good rotors? I need an 8", but I don't know if I need 203 or 205, or if that matters...

And, if they used the same pads as my Mono M4s did, or even similar, they are the same size as virtually any other 4-piston brake out there, Code, actually the old shimano xt 4pots and monoM4 pads were interchangable, saint, gustav, etc...

 

[norbar]

jesus, how long are your fingers, then? My brake levers were probably three inches from the bar (at the closest setting) at the end. You must be a hit with the ladies if you're able to wrap a finger around the end and brake comfortably with your hand still on the bar.

And I thought bass players never get laid

 

[csermonet]

Oh gahh my friend STILL rides that atrocity of a bike. With 25.4mm bars. Like 680mm wide 0_o He insists it is still a relevant bike. 15.5 inch BB, Avy rear shock and DH8 fork, has to weigh over 60lbs.

He has those Gustav's on there as well, they look sweet and I've heard good things about them. I can't handle riding his bike more than 5ft to get a good idea of what they are like though. Feels like they could use a little better bleed.

 

[dropmachine]

If hes happy on it, than its completely relevant. Far more so than the latest flavour of the week, built to fill a media created niche too.

 

[csermonet]

If hes happy on it, than its completely relevant. Far more so than the latest flavour of the week, built to fill a media created niche too.

If he is happy then more power to him. Personally I would rather shave my face with a cheese grater and then shake some sea salt into the wounds while skull ****ing an alligator, than ride that ugly over built heavy piece of crap hipster New Yorker wannabe downhill bike. But hey, opinions are like ass holes. Everyone has one and most of them stink like ****.

 

[Sandwich]

Well...5 years ago you had THIS to say about the Hopes:



And, if they used the same pads as my Mono M4s did, or even similar, they are the same size as virtually any other 4-piston brake out there, Code, actually the old shimano xt 4pots and monoM4 pads were interchangable, saint, gustav, etc...

My brakes used these http://www.bikeparts.com/search_results.asp?id=BPC317455&gclid=CODa6O6KgrYCFUVN4AodMzYAyw, not these http://www.cyclesportsuk.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=9556&country_for_tax=223&currency=USD

And five years ago I was convinced that my Brooklyn didn't handle well because of the short rear end, didn't know anything about shocks besides "AVY is teh best lawl" and was running 650mm bars on my 54lb downhill bike. I didn't know ****, and the fact that I said my brakes were decent is pretty good evidence. Since the hopes, I've owned Gustavs, Saint 810s, Hayes Mags, and now XT 785s on my downhill bike, and Avid BB7, Juicy 5, and XT 775 on my trail bike. I've also ridden Older saints, Avid Codes, and Juicy 7s with enough time to have an opinion. I would take any single one of those brakes over the hopes.

When I sold the Brooklyn, I had a guy who was initially interested until I told him I got rid of those dreadful brakes and put on gustavs, and he got mad and was no longer interested. I never bothered to contact him again. Idiot.

 

[Sandwich]

Oh gahh my friend STILL rides that atrocity of a bike. With 25.4mm bars. Like 680mm wide 0_o He insists it is still a relevant bike. 15.5 inch BB, Avy rear shock and DH8 fork, has to weigh over 60lbs.

He has those Gustav's on there as well, they look sweet and I've heard good things about them. I can't handle riding his bike more than 5ft to get a good idea of what they are like though. Feels like they could use a little better bleed.

Is it THAT bike, or just a racelink? I sold mine some time ago, still miss it for it's "Huck off everything" ability. Some part of me would love to try and turn it into a viable bike, not enough to buy one.

 

[csermonet]

Is it THAT bike, or just a racelink? I sold mine some time ago, still miss it for it's "Huck off everything" ability. Some part of me would love to try and turn it into a viable bike, not enough to buy one.

No not yours exactly. Although I did give it a hard second look just to make sure haha He has ProTaper bars and I dont think his Avy forks are black. It indeed would be interesting to ride one with a more modern style build. Also their "trail bike" with the same sort of linkage.

 

[norbar]

If hes happy on it, than its completely relevant. Far more so than the latest flavour of the week, built to fill a media created niche too.

Using your anti bike establishment argument heroin is cool as long as people are happy on it. Buying a new bike every year makes no sense but some things were really improved from the time that bike was new as much as the cool kids would like to deny it.

 

[no skid marks]

Using your anti bike establishment argument heroin is cool as long as people are happy on it.Interesting metaphor. A lot of similarities between the bike industry and Heroin use. Both theoretically could be cool. Buying a new bike every year makes no sense but some things were really improved from the time that bike was new as much as the cool kids would like to deny it.

That frame with shorter stays, lazier head angle and lower BB, would still be better than the majority of bikes available IMO. I think it's only really now starting to become outgunned design wise. Same with the Avy shock. Still up to the task and better than the majority of shocks IMO.
Silencer anyone?

 

[daisycutter]

I just sold my M1 with offset bushing and headset. The Avy shock was at least as good as the DHX RC4 I have on my 2011 Giant Glory. My main compliant was the BB was a bit high and the 8 1/8 headset made for a high front end. All in all I would have kept it but the Ball and Chain was getting a bit tired of all the bikes I have and a couple bikes had to go.

 

[Sandwich]

No not yours exactly. Although I did give it a hard second look just to make sure haha He has ProTaper bars and I dont think his Avy forks are black. It indeed would be interesting to ride one with a more modern style build. Also their "trail bike" with the same sort of linkage.

is it the SR8 that he has, or the racelink? Because to this day, the racelink had the nicest feeling rear end of any bike I've ridden. It moves through its travel easily but doesn't bottom. Unfortunately the geometry is mental, 15.5" BB and 67* head angle, with 17.25" stays in the shortest, non-2.5" tire compatible position. Plus a 22" top tube that made tall people feel silly. If I ever found a deal on one....they're pseudo collectors editions though.

 

[kidwoo]

i'm the kind of guy that just kills it on any bike regardless of geo, suspension setup, or whatever the kids are raving about these days.

Yeah but you don't really kill it that hard.

 

[csermonet]

is it the SR8 that he has, or the racelink? Because to this day, the racelink had the nicest feeling rear end of any bike I've ridden. It moves through its travel easily but doesn't bottom. Unfortunately the geometry is mental, 15.5" BB and 67* head angle, with 17.25" stays in the shortest, non-2.5" tire compatible position. Plus a 22" top tube that made tall people feel silly. If I ever found a deal on one....they're pseudo collectors editions though.

Racelink. Not being the strongest guy, and used to riding a 40lb bike, I couldn't come to grips with the weight. Minimal ride time though. At the time I was riding a Sunday, wide bars, low, slack etc. The setup on his Racelink felt awkward, grip shift, narrow bars, the bike felt really small under me(6'1), and the Gustav's he had basically did nothing with his levers being setup very far from the bars and what seemed to be a poor bleed. The geometry was so wacked compared to my personal bike too that it was just too awkward and I couldn't even bare to take it for a second run. Wonder what a lighter aluminum version, with slacker more modern geo would ride like? General impression of the suspension was good, would like to try some Avy stuff on a bike I am a little more comfortable on.

 

[norbar]

That frame with shorter stays, lazier head angle and lower BB, would still be better than the majority of bikes available IMO. I think it's only really now starting to become outgunned design wise. Same with the Avy shock. Still up to the task and better than the majority of shocks IMO.
Silencer anyone?

So basicly a new bike. You also forget it would be nice for it to be lighter than 60lbs, have wide bars and decent pedals.

 

[no skid marks]

So basicly a new bike. You also forget it would be nice for it to be lighter than 60lbs, have wide bars and decent pedals.

I was just talking about the frame design. However all the problems I mentioned could be fixed with a new swingarm, and maybe dog bone link. Ideally all problems would be addressed separately and frame made out of lighter steel. I wasn't talking about bars etc, and as for weight, I had mine under 41lbs years ago, now you could get it lighter much easier, 28tooth carbon cranks etc.

 

[norbar]

I was just talking about the frame design. However all the problems I mentioned could be fixed with a new swingarm, and maybe dog bone link. Ideally all problems would be addressed separately and frame made out of lighter steel. I wasn't talking about bars etc, and as for weight, I had mine under 41lbs years ago, now you could get it lighter much easier, 28tooth carbon cranks etc.

Frame weight is what matters. Even though it may ride as light as the Zerode

 

[Sandwich]

Frame weight is what matters. Even though it may ride as light as the Zerode

there are, likely somewhere out there, a few people willing to sacrifice a pound for a more robust frame. There's no doubt in my mind that you could make a completely relevant, albeit 1lb heavier than aluminum/2lbs heavier than carbon, steel frame. You just might have to forgo the jackshaft, two of the chainrings, floater, and adjustable BB...but I think most people wouldn't miss those too much. I think most people find the Zerode so appealing for the same reasons. Lots of benefits, at the sacrifice of a little bit of weight. "ride lighter" might be a joke around here, but I think having a robust drivetrain with a nice leverage ratio and a great performing suspension is no joke, no matter the lack of patents or carbonz.

 

[UiUiUiUi]

as one of the people who got to ride the relevant version of the race link i.e. the silencer i can attest the concept is ****ing awesome with an updated geo...

its just sad doc is not getting around to build those things!

 

[valve bouncer]

No, I got them to work fine. I could bleed the dho4s in a parking lot with body armor on. I did multiple times.

Any tips? I got my E4s working satisfactorily but they don't feel as good as I know they can. It seemed no matter how much fluid I got through the system there was still a few bubbles. Is it necessary to get a far bit of fluid through the system after a full rebuild before all the air is out? Things I've tried- tapping everything with the back of a screwdriver, flicking the lever, swearing. Any advice is much appreciated.

 

[Sandwich]

Any tips? I got my E4s working satisfactorily but they don't feel as good as I know they can. It seemed no matter how much fluid I got through the system there was still a few bubbles. Is it necessary to get a far bit of fluid through the system after a full rebuild before all the air is out? Things I've tried- tapping everything with the back of a screwdriver, flicking the lever, swearing. Any advice is much appreciated.

Not really. Tapping the calipers and reservoir seemed to help. I usually did top to bottom bleeds, so pump the lever and open the valve, refill, etc. I would get them rock hard in the parking lot, then after the first run there was mush. Thought it would be a leak, but there would have to be fluid coming out somewhere. iirc, I used the highest quality brake fluid possible, I think 5.1 (though ate or motul would probably be smarter), except for the time I bled them using fluid from my wife's car, since they gave out at jiminy and I didn't carry around a bottle of fresh fluid with me...yet. Again, I had the "mini" lever with the rectangular reservoir, and sintered pads. I also tried organics. I also tried organics and sintered, to get them to quiet down. I also tried that tacky stuff on the back, it didn't help. Some of my pads disintegrated from the heat, since they're about a quarter of the size of a modern brake pad.

I'm clearly in the minority, but my suggestion would be to put them on a retro bike or dirt jumper and buy a set of elixir 1s for $80 (or literally anything else) and enjoy. They might be ok on a trail bike, if you don't mind the weight and can take the noise.

 

[norbar]

there are, likely somewhere out there, a few people willing to sacrifice a pound for a more robust frame. There's no doubt in my mind that you could make a completely relevant, albeit 1lb heavier than aluminum/2lbs heavier than carbon, steel frame. You just might have to forgo the jackshaft, two of the chainrings, floater, and adjustable BB...but I think most people wouldn't miss those too much. I think most people find the Zerode so appealing for the same reasons. Lots of benefits, at the sacrifice of a little bit of weight. "ride lighter" might be a joke around here, but I think having a robust drivetrain with a nice leverage ratio and a great performing suspension is no joke, no matter the lack of patents or carbonz.

I'm with you on that but that's why I own a Legend

 

[Jm_]

Any tips? I got my E4s working satisfactorily but they don't feel as good as I know they can. It seemed no matter how much fluid I got through the system there was still a few bubbles. Is it necessary to get a far bit of fluid through the system after a full rebuild before all the air is out? Things I've tried- tapping everything with the back of a screwdriver, flicking the lever, swearing. Any advice is much appreciated.

How do you know there are still bubbles? Seeing? Lever squeeze soft? What are the other symptoms?

 

[valve bouncer]

How do you know there are still bubbles? Seeing? Lever squeeze soft? What are the other symptoms?

Both. The bubbles were really small then all of a sudden a big one would come out. I couldn't spend all day doing it so I suspect a few more big bubbles still lurk in the system. When they were "on" bitd the lever felt incredible, I liked having the bite point far out from the bars, not quite "rock hard" as Sandwich described but getting there. Now the lever goes a fair way before engaging. I've fiddled a bit with the lever adjustments but on the weekend I'll give them another bleed and see how I go. Cheers for the help fellas, much appreciated.

 

[Jm_]

well, it's usually pretty obvious when you have air, it has a soft lever feel, has to "pump up" sometimes, etc. If the engagement has changed, but the lever feel is still constant, there are other issues.

 

[HAB]

there are, likely somewhere out there, a few people willing to sacrifice a pound for a more robust frame. There's no doubt in my mind that you could make a completely relevant, albeit 1lb heavier than aluminum/2lbs heavier than carbon, steel frame. You just might have to forgo the jackshaft, two of the chainrings, floater, and adjustable BB...but I think most people wouldn't miss those too much. I think most people find the Zerode so appealing for the same reasons. Lots of benefits, at the sacrifice of a little bit of weight. "ride lighter" might be a joke around here, but I think having a robust drivetrain with a nice leverage ratio and a great performing suspension is no joke, no matter the lack of patents or carbonz.

My Draco, with a CCDB and 350# Cane Creek steel spring weighs within an ounce of a large, painted M9 with a CCDB and whatever CC branded steel spring is a reasonable weight for someone my size (sorry, forget what that is) based on a friends' bike. So yes.

 

[ianjenn]

Yeah but you don't really kill it that hard.

Maybe or maybe not....WCH I believe putting the hurt on bars, fork and frame

 

[valve bouncer]

Maybe or maybe not....WCH I believe putting the hurt on bars, fork and frame

Did any of it survive? Great pic.

 

[William42]

the bike? hell no. WCH seems to be alive and kicking though.

 

[WestCoastHucker]

lolz. the bar broke in half, but the rest was just fine. took a little break to put on a new bar and went back to work...

 

[csermonet]

Damnn hucker that looks painful. Is that actually capturing the bar break happening? Pretty good snap haha How big was the airtime coming in to that crash landing? Musta been pretty large to snap some bars in two

 

[WestCoastHucker]

yeah, the broken end is in my left hand. troy hitting it from a slightly different angle...

 

[csermonet]

yowza! Old Rampage site by chance?