[Uncle Cliffy]

So it's time for an upgrade to my big bike.

I'm a 200 lb. sport level rider, who enters the expert class to ride the better courses. I don't race very much though... I like to carve turns at speed and pick the sneaky lines. (Saying that, I try to ride like I'm racing. )

Anyway, I've been riding a Rocky Flatline and I have to say it's not a bad bike. Head angle is hovering around 64 with a 14 inch BB height. It's been a few seasons now and I feel the need to change as I'm tired of it's excess heft (44lbs currently) and the 18.25 chainstays. Don't get me wrong, I like a bike that's stable at speed, but I want to throw it around too.

My local shop's been an Intense dealer for the last year or so and now it looks like Evil will be added to the line-up. Last weekend I got a run on a friends 951 and it caused me to write the thread you're reading. We are about the same height and weight, so the bike was set up well for me. It was a touch un-balanced since his fork was riding a little high in it's travel,(09 Boxxer WC) plus it couldn't keep up with the CCDB in the rear. I railed that bike though and came away smiling...

I was pretty set on a Revolt, but now I'm curious everyone's thoughts between the 2 frames. (Yeah, I used the search function...) One of the more obvious issues that concerns me is the 951 seems to need a 550 lb spring to get proper sag. I only have a parking lot pedal on the Revolt, but I like the fact that it may be a bit tougher than the 951.

So, if others have demo time on both bikes, give me your 2 cents.

 

[blackohio]

no experience on a 951, but i absolutely love my revolt. I came off a sunday

 

[thom9719]

I second the Revolt. Mine is amazing.

-KT

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

no experience on a 951, but i absolutely love my revolt. I came off a sunday

I second the Revolt. Mine is amazing.

-KT

For my info, what frame settings are you guys running? On paper, my settings would probably be steep HA, low BB... (64, 13.79,)

 

[William42]

The 951 I rode had the exact same unbalanced feel between the front and rear. I pretty much used all the travel going through corners, which was nice in the groomed ones cause it felt so deep and "in" the berm, but on any with braking bumps it got pretty rough pretty fast, and it was difficult to pump. I assumed at the time that it was a matter of shock tuning, and it worked pretty well for the trail, but after hearing some other people saying the same thing, a little dubious about pulling the trigger.

Very interested to hear what people have to say, since this is basically my decision but throw in a v10 as well (I know, very different feeling).

 

[Nagaredama]

2010 Demo 8.

 

[demo 9]

Not having ridden either, i have no "real" opinion, but if i was you i would get the evil.

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

Yeah Will, "in" the turn. Unfortunately I didn't get to rail much chatter... It was a loamy day with some big hits here and there. Not much in the way of high traffic brake bumps. I see what people mean about the way the shock rate behaves though. Still felt like the handling was to my liking.

 

[Morgan]

v10 seems good all the cool people have em, great bike for your area, after seeing the 951 in person it clearly is defficient, haha

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

v10 seems good all the cool people have em, great bike for your area, after seeing the 951 in person it clearly is defficient, haha

 

[iRider]

You should have come to the Blackrock demo days!
I demo'd both, Revolt and the the 951. Both excellent bikes. Being on a Socom myself I felt more at home on the 951 but the Evil was not that far off. The 951 felt nicer over the braking bumps, kept more speed. Evil seemed to be slowed down more. On the other hand, the Evil's suspension gave more feedback in the upper, slow rock garden where the VPP feels a little more dead. For my riding style I liked the way the 951 cornered better, deeper in it's travel. It was in the long travel setting, keep this in mind. Could all be different in the short setting.

Being a fan of 4-bar suspension and the hand-made-in-house thing I personally would get the 951 if the prices are similar. You being used to a SP might decide different. Can't go wrong either way. Hope this helps.

 

[Sandwich]

Not to be rude, but if you're a sport bro with expert capabilities, why not pick the bike that's the most reliable? So far the evil has a pretty good rep for being solid, with a few niggles, and the 951 has a million pivots in the rear...I bet they both ride sweet, and you would love either, but the last thing I want, as a rider with similar abilities, is a frame I have to toy with every 5 minutes.

 

[iRider]

Not to be rude, but if you're a sport bro with expert capabilities, why not pick the bike that's the most reliable? So far the evil has a pretty good rep for being solid, with a few niggles, and the 951 has a million pivots in the rear...I bet they both ride sweet, and you would love either, but the last thing I want, as a rider with similar abilities, is a frame I have to toy with every 5 minutes.

So you didn't count all the pivots in the linkage of the Evil then?
BTW: there is no such thing as a frame/component/bike that you don't have to "toy with" if you are racing, period!

 

[Sandwich]

So you didn't count all the pivots in the linkage of the Evil then?
BTW: there is no such thing as a frame/component/bike that you don't have to "toy with" if you are racing, period!

yeah, but the evil bearings are somewhat less load bearing. I'd even go so far as to say some don't bear any side loads at all, or next to none...whereas on the intense they're integral. And I'm not trying to say go one or the other, just to buy the one that will have better support, quality, availability.

Also...there are frames that don't need a rebuild half as often as others....see above with regards to bearings. I doubt you need to rebuild or worry about the bearings in a morewood nearly as often as you do a v10.

Moral of the story...less broked parts, more riding time.

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

I've wrapped my mind around the maintenance level of both frames... I'm quite familiar with the history and love VPP bikes require, but the newer zerk fitted frames are much nicer to deal with. I've shoved handfuls of grease in my Slopestyles lower rocker and it's nice and smooth. I'd still like to tear down the upper Enduromax bearings, as they typically don't deal with rain very well with the speced grease... I haven't had to do it yet though.

On the Revolt, the main pivot's probably solid as a rock. I anticipate the linkage area would be the first to develop play/wear.

This is why I could guess that the level of down-time for both frames could be negligible. It is nice (as Sandwich pointed out) that the Evil mostly deals with side loads on one pivot...

 

[IH8Rice]

On the Revolt, the main pivot's probably solid as a rock. I anticipate the linkage area would be the first to develop play/wear.

yeah, with the bushing design, they do wear somewhat fast in muddy conditions. i got about 4 months of weekly riding in the east before i had to change them.
my main pivot bearings were fine, but the main link bearings were also shot.

 

[bullcrew]

Just keep some bearings on hand and dont sweat it too much, I keep a set around for the I9s and frame in my mech kit.
So as long as they dont have issuesw with tearing themselves apart literally buy the bike you want.
They both fall under the upper category and are going to have a little maintenance but thats part of the reason they both will perform like race bikes.
have to give a little to get a little....

Either way I havent rode either but considered both and they look to be kick @$$ frames.

Post pics when your done and get one....

 

[WBC]

Pro Rider Kyle Thomas! why the short answer!? I know full well that just like me, you're getting PAID for your RideMonkey posts! Hurrah decent jobs!

They're both great frames and I was torn between the two before I got my 951. I rode both before buying and have had my 951 since late Aug.

I think the 951 is getting a lot of bad rap due to poor setup. A lot of 180lbs riders are running 500lbs springs and wondering why they're not getting full travel. The 951 is way softer off the top than any other bike I've felt, which is why I ran a 600 when I first got mine setup. After figuring out how to tune the RC4 I've gone down to a 450. A good buddy who is about 170 w/ a CCDB went from a 500 to a 350 and likes it a whole lot better. When I measure my sag I'm sitting about 33% in the back - which is about where most VPP bikes seem to like to be. If you want it to feel like a more conventional DH setup, the key is just running a lighter spring with more LSC.

When I compare between the two bikes, it feels like the evil is a little more responsive in the rocks and more responsive when you're pumping terrain, but they're both relatively dead feeling bikes compared to your average single pivot or horst link bikes. I felt more comfortable riding tech, slower and steeper riding on the Evil, but I think a lot of that is because I'm running my 951 long and low and the wheelbase is similar to my full-size Dodge Ram Van. I've ridden bikes that take big holes and square edge better than the 951 (like the M6, the Evil, the V10, etc) but when you get it up to speed, the 951 is hard to upset and the suspension definitely lets you pick the bike up to make tight corners. Either way, these new style dampers (CCDB, RC4) are going to make bikes much more stable than something with a DHX 5.

In terms of reliability, I have had not even a creak with my 951 so far - even with about a dozen days of shuttling in snow/pissing rain with a whole bunch more riding on top of that. I grease the lower link every 4-5 days of riding and it's still just as soft off the top. I know Evil has been great with CS, and they're a newer company that is still working out the bugs, which is totally understandable and I am in no way trying to rag on them in any way, but a few of my friends on Evils have had to spend more time working on their rigs than I have on mine. That said, they seem to always take care of any problems and it looks like they got new dogbone links coming this season, so it may become a moot point.

There's plenty of reasons to buy either frame and you're not going wrong either way, I'd advise to ride a 951 that's been setup properly and also to look past the idea that Singlepivots = ultimate reliability and that VPP bikes will always have problems. Case in point: newer Santa Cruz bikes are more reliable than just about anything out there next to a Specialized, and I'm sure we can think of a few burly singlepivots known for having swingarms snap off.

If you have a phobia of working on your own bike, you might be happier with something less botique like a SC, Giant, Spec, but if you're not worried about it I'd think either the Intense or the Evil would give you about the same service life.

The big differences between the 951 (remembering I'm running mine long) and the Evil(also ran completely slack/low) are that the 951 can be run with a longer wheelbase than the Evil, so if you like long bikes the 951 might be it. The 951 feels better hitting big senders (more effortless), whereas the Evil is better with steep lips (shorter WB). The evil pumps better, manuals better, and takes hard square edge hits better. The 951 feels more stable, smoother over most terrain and likes to fly more.

I'm happy with my choice for the 951, but I keep looking at that DW DHR - and the TR450, Makulu, Demo8, etc. There's so many good bikes and it's real hard to go wrong with just about anything this season.

It's a slow day at work and I could go on and on.

Why I bought the 951:

The Intense was ~$400 cheaper and I liked it just as much as the Revolt and everything that the Evil did well, the 951 did something else well to compensate for it. If I was racing WC's I'd probably go with the evil because of it having more adjustability and it's easier to ride when things get scary (shorter back end, slacker HA, more linear suspension). That said, for hanging out, shuttlin, pounding 30bombs and riding big bikes, the 951 does a great job and I've been really happy with mine.

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

You should have come to the Blackrock demo days!
I demo'd both, Revolt and the the 951. Both excellent bikes. Being on a Socom myself I felt more at home on the 951 but the Evil was not that far off. The 951 felt nicer over the braking bumps, kept more speed. Evil seemed to be slowed down more. On the other hand, the Evil's suspension gave more feedback in the upper, slow rock garden where the VPP feels a little more dead. For my riding style I liked the way the 951 cornered better, deeper in it's travel. It was in the long travel setting, keep this in mind. Could all be different in the short setting.

Being a fan of 4-bar suspension and the hand-made-in-house thing I personally would get the 951 if the prices are similar. You being used to a SP might decide different. Can't go wrong either way. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm really bummed I missed the demo day. On that note, I went up to the WTF shuttle day and could've schralped a TR450. I'm kicking my own ass that I didn't do that either.

Jake's 951 I tested is set up in the short travel setting with a CCDB, 550 ti spring, and dropout position 1. (Short setting.) He has it there so he doesn't catch pedals, but it's lower than my Flatline still. It felt pretty sweet in that position... It did hug turns pretty low, and felt just slack enough.

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

It's a slow day at work and I could go on and on.

Ha! You pretty much did go on and on... Not that that's a bad thing. Very informative...

What areas are you riding yours at? I'll probably be riding Ashland for the most part, with trips to Shasta, Willamette, and hopefully Whistler this year.

 

[WBC]

I do most of my riding in NW Washington and SW BC, which means most of the trails I ride are fairly steep, tech, wet, rocky, rooty - I'm sure you've seen these types of trails in just about every bike vid. I've also taken'er east of the mountains where its fast, sometimes rocky, not as steep but pretty different riding than where I'm at. I like to just run one setting and get used to riding it wherever I go.

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

I do most of my riding in NW Washington and SW BC, which means most of the trails I ride are fairly steep, tech, wet, rocky, rooty - I'm sure you've seen these types of trails in just about every bike vid. I've also taken'er east of the mountains where its fast, sometimes rocky, not as steep but pretty different riding than where I'm at. I like to just run one setting and get used to riding it wherever I go.

Lots of time in Whistler? I know the park pretty well... I like most of the trails in the Garbanzo zone, (except Goats Gully when it's slick...) and could probably rip "Dirty A-line" runs all day long... How's the bike there?

 

[WBC]

Lots of time in Whistler? I know the park pretty well... I like most of the trails in the Garbanzo zone, (except Goats Gully when it's slick...) and could probably rip "Dirty A-line" runs all day long... How's the bike there?

Well, I've been a season's pass-holder there every year since 2002.

However, my 951 hasn't seen a day of Whistler (I've been at one of those jobs that you've gotta make sacrifices for ).

That said, whenever I go to Whistler I usually stay up top, especially when Goats Gully/Captain Safety are wet. I love the rocks, and the nastier the better. The bike would handle all that stuff just great. The fast, rocky, flowy trails are where I think the bike shines. When you're taking the shortcuts off the bridges at speed in the rain on Goat's Gully, the Evil would probably be better because of the shorter rear/slacker HA is easier to check the corners. If you're riding that stuff in the dry, I'd take the 951 because the 951 simply "flows over" stuff so well. That's the best way to describe it. It doesn't take the sharp, quick stuff as well - especially when you're hitting it really fast (which is probably why the WC guys go for the M6), but it does a decent job and all the flowier riding it handles great. Compared to most steep, rough trails, Whistler flows tremendously well.

If you're talking jump trails, the Evil is probably a better bike for the A-line due to the shorter CS (steep lips = short CS = many 20" bikes running 13.5" CS), but most of the jump trails at Whistler have mellower floaters and that's what the 951 likes.

If you can keep the bike at speed and floating over terrain, the 951 is fantastic. If you're trying to kill smash everything it does alright but there are other bikes that do it better. That said I often kill smash and it does just fine. The 951 would be a great resort bike because it's long and stable, but still really playful, but like I said before, for monster trucking rough tracks and trying to save seconds wherever possible, I'd go with something like the M6, the V10, or the Evil.

They're the two hottest bikes of 2009 - can't go wrong either way!

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

Well, I've been a season's pass-holder there every year since 2002.

However, my 951 hasn't seen a day of Whistler (I've been at one of those jobs that you've gotta make sacrifices for ).

That said, whenever I go to Whistler I usually stay up top, especially when Goats Gully/Captain Safety are wet. I love the rocks, and the nastier the better. The bike would handle all that stuff just great. The fast, rocky, flowy trails are where I think the bike shines. When you're taking the shortcuts off the bridges at speed in the rain on Goat's Gully, the Evil would probably be better because of the shorter rear/slacker HA is easier to check the corners. If you're riding that stuff in the dry, I'd take the 951 because the 951 simply "flows over" stuff so well. That's the best way to describe it. It doesn't take the sharp, quick stuff as well - especially when you're hitting it really fast (which is probably why the WC guys go for the M6), but it does a decent job and all the flowier riding it handles great. Compared to most steep, rough trails, Whistler flows tremendously well.

If you're talking jump trails, the Evil is probably a better bike for the A-line due to the shorter CS (steep lips = short CS = many 20" bikes running 13.5" CS), but most of the jump trails at Whistler have mellower floaters and that's what the 951 likes.

If you can keep the bike at speed and floating over terrain, the 951 is fantastic. If you're trying to kill smash everything it does alright but there are other bikes that do it better. That said I often kill smash and it does just fine. The 951 would be a great resort bike because it's long and stable, but still really playful, but like I said before, for monster trucking rough tracks and trying to save seconds wherever possible, I'd go with something like the M6, the V10, or the Evil.

They're the two hottest bikes of 2009 - can't go wrong either way!

It's says I can't give you any more positive rep. Thanks man!

 

[thom9719]

Pro Rider Kyle Thomas! why the short answer!? I know full well that just like me, you're getting PAID for your RideMonkey posts! Hurrah decent jobs!

Why haven't you been at taco night? Ridemonkey is serious buisness, I know, but it doesn't compete with Jersery Shore!

-KT