[Toshi]

Sure, and you'll find some studies that show statistically significant effects of all kinds of traditional or holistic treatments. I'm not claiming ALL treatments produce effects, or that the effects are at all consistent in their range of efficacy. I'm also referring to everything from herbal remedies, to what is essentially stretching and exercise (yoga), to what could be argued as placebo effect but still affects things like healing/recovery. Are you going to argue that if you do a bunch of **** to your body and mind it will have NO effect?

i accept the weaker version of your claim. i just wanted to point out that it's not for lack of methods or testable endpoints that the data are weak, contrary to your claim that "Because we don't yet have scientific methods for understanding and testing these methods, they cannot be integrated into Western medicine".

 

[ohio]

i accept the weaker version of your claim. i just wanted to point out that it's not for lack of methods or testable endpoints that the data are weak, contrary to your claim that "Because we don't yet have scientific methods for understanding and testing these methods, they cannot be integrated into Western medicine".

I'll stand by both claims. In many of these cases, we don't yet have an explanation for the wildly ranging effects/results or the mechanisms at work. Doctors are not about to administer something for which they can't reliably predict the result, but that isn't to say that we're pretending a result is non-existant. With time, we should be able to break these down to a better, more predictable understanding.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Because we don't yet have scientific methods for understanding and testing these methods, they cannot be integrated into Western medicine.

Rockwool,
If you get anything else out of this thread, get this concept. We don't have ways of scientifically measuring the effects that you talk about, so they are not scientific ideas as yet.

As for too much medication, some doctors do prescribe too much, others don't. I think that stems from the ease of our culture. Most people don't want to have to work out to lose weight or get better, they want a quick cure now. Good doctors will recognize when they have a patient that is willing to put in some effort and will work with that patient in ways other than just dealing out drugs. Chang, I would suggest you shop around for a better doctor, or voice your concerns to your current doctors.

It's not beyond Western medicine to realize that stretching and exercise work. It's called physical therapy. I should know, I've had enough injuries that I should have gotten a frequent flier type card at my last physical therapist's office. Anyway, the point is that we know that exercise and stretching work and it's baffling to me when people say that we don't do that in medicine. We do, all the time. There's no need, however, for new agey philosophy to go along with it. The exercise will help to strengthen your body and work out stress without all the excess baggage of learning the right incantation or something like that. This isn't anything new.

 

[rockwool]

Rockwool,
If you get anything else out of this thread, get this concept. We don't have ways of scientifically measuring the effects that you talk about, so they are not scientific ideas as yet.

It's not beyond Western medicine to realize that stretching and exercise work. It's called physical therapy. I should know, I've had enough injuries that I should have gotten a frequent flier type card at my last physical therapist's office. Anyway, the point is that we know that exercise and stretching work and it's baffling to me when people say that we don't do that in medicine. We do, all the time. There's no need, however, for new agey philosophy to go along with it. The exercise will help to strengthen your body and work out stress without all the excess baggage of learning the right incantation or something like that. This isn't anything new.

And alternative methods probably won't become acknowledged because of that they can't be patented. Look at Cannabis for a perfect example.

I had a cruciate surgury done two years ago and went to physical therapy for 8 or so months after that. It made my leg strong, of course, but the effect it had on my psychological well being was very shallow. Excersise make you feel good and healthy in spirit too, but it isn't therapeutic. Yoga is.

I bet you my bike that you will go places that excersise hasn't taken you. Why? Because of the breathing. The only thing you will hear in the west when it comes to breathing is "don't forget to breathe". The Indians have taken it to a scientific level. I told you, don't take my word for it. Cut the debating prestige and try it out, you will grow as a human and you will take the battered wife syndrom off of me as you will start taking notice of me and give me propper acknowledgment. Love you too Ohio!!!

 

[MikeD]

Mr. Miyagi had it correct. "Don't forget to breathe."

Taking aikido for a while taught me a lot about breathing...alas, without regular practice, you forget.

At last Rockwool and I agree about something!

 

[ohio]

Cut the debating prestige and try it out, you will grow as a human and you will take the battered wife syndrom off of me as you will start taking notice of me and give me propper acknowledgment. Love you too Ohio!!!

For the last time. I believe you that it has positive effects. OGMF probably also believes you. Why do you NEED it to be called scientific? Why do you need validation from an institution you claim to disdain? That's the battered wife part.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

And alternative methods probably won't become acknowledged because of that they can't be patented. Look at Cannabis for a perfect example.[/QUOTE}
I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong. Not only is cannabis being studied, but it is even prescribed for certain ailments, like glaucoma.

I had a cruciate surgury done two years ago and went to physical therapy for 8 or so months after that. It made my leg strong, of course, but the effect it had on my psychological well being was very shallow. Excersise make you feel good and healthy in spirit too, but it isn't therapeutic. Yoga is.

Certain types of exercise work better for some people than others.

I bet you my bike that you will go places that excersise hasn't taken you. Why? Because of the breathing. The only thing you will hear in the west when it comes to breathing is "don't forget to breathe". The Indians have taken it to a scientific level. I told you, don't take my word for it. Cut the debating prestige and try it out, you will grow as a human and you will take the battered wife syndrom off of me as you will start taking notice of me and give me propper acknowledgment. Love you too Ohio!!!

Like Ohio said, I'm not saying it doesn't have benefits. I'm saying it does, but so do lots of other things. Exercise and relaxation techniques are nothing new, not even to western medicine. The "spiritual" aspects, however, are completely unproven and unscientific, and I would not want a medical professional to act unscientifically. It would be unprofessional and could be dangerous for the patient if applied to something that ends up being unhealthy for the patient.