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The state of mental health in Africa

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,147
796
Lima, Peru, Peru
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wopsyc0401,0,5215557.story?coll=ny-leadworldnews-headlines

This is really sad, especially what happens to those who seek prayerful alternatives.

Also, when did belief in evil spirits and demonic possessions become solely the province of African superstition? That statement was rather weird, but the rest of the article is rather good.
holy crap!.
rather powerful article. the only psychiatrist in a country of 3.7 million, and the other 4 countries with no shrinks at all.:twitch:

portraits how psychiatry is seen in many places of the world actually.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
portraits how psychiatry is seen in many places of the world actually.
That is sad. But as a reminder, in our own countries, western medecin and psychiatry is seen as the "only real" way of doing things and other methods have only very recently started to be acknowledged as possible/alternative ways of doing things.

An example is acupuncture. It is acnowledged in swedish medicine for painreleaf solely and can only be receaved in a hospital. If you go to a certified acupuncturer you have to pay their full rate of ~44euros instead of ~6,5euros it will cost you to get a western treatment.

When it comes to western psychiatry it is the same thing there; it is the only recognized existing way of doing things. They offer people some talks with psychiatrists, who can give some good advices surely, but mostly rely on that the patient takes his patented western serotonin enhansing medicines.

Treatment is keyword here when it should be curing. Treatment is an ongoing prosession while a cure comes to an end and no other money can be attained from the patient. Critisism has come from within their own ranks on this point.

Another thing about western psychiatry is that it is only about 3000-3500 years old. As far as I know it started in ancient Greece with all the Gods and myths servings as archetypes of persons and life situations. Modern western (analytical) psychiatry started with the freebasing self excavations of Freud.

Put those 3000 some years of psychological experiance in comparison to far eastern psychology. In India, for instance, Yoga has been practised for some 5000 years. The psychological self help effects of yoga are now a fact that is growing among westerners. The belief that each and every person posseses the ability to self cure.

Another, not so known, part of yoga is its philophy. Eastern philosophy as a whole is also older than western philosophy, and when it is combined with the knowing of ones own body through different body excercises like tai-chi, falun-gong, yoga and pure meditation, it has effects on us that western psychology and medicine combined doesnt come close to.

Ignorance and overbelief in that ones own known methods are better than your neighbours are not an African phenomenon eather. I think we westerners are practising it the worst of all.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
That is sad. But as a reminder, in our own countries, western medecin and psychiatry is seen as the "only real" way of doing things and other methods have only very recently started to be acknowledged as possible/alternative ways of doing things.

An example is acupuncture. It is acnowledged in swedish medicine for painreleaf solely and can only be receaved in a hospital. If you go to a certified acupuncturer you have to pay their full rate of ~44euros instead of ~6,5euros it will cost you to get a western treatment.

When it comes to western psychiatry it is the same thing there; it is the only recognized existing way of doing things. They offer people some talks with psychiatrists, who can give some good advices surely, but mostly rely on that the patient takes his patented western serotonin enhansing medicines.

Treatment is keyword here when it should be curing. Treatment is an ongoing prosession while a cure comes to an end and no other money can be attained from the patient. Critisism has come from within their own ranks on this point.

Another thing about western psychiatry is that it is only about 3000-3500 years old. As far as I know it started in ancient Greece with all the Gods and myths servings as archetypes of persons and life situations. Modern western (analytical) psychiatry started with the freebasing self excavations of Freud.

Put those 3000 some years of psychological experiance in comparison to far eastern psychology. In India, for instance, Yoga has been practised for some 5000 years. The psychological self help effects of yoga are now a fact that is growing among westerners. The belief that each and every person posseses the ability to self cure.

Another, not so known, part of yoga is its philophy. Eastern philosophy as a whole is also older than western philosophy, and when it is combined with the knowing of ones own body through different body excercises like tai-chi, falun-gong, yoga and pure meditation, it has effects on us that western psychology and medicine combined doesnt come close to.

Ignorance and overbelief in that ones own known methods are better than your neighbours are not an African phenomenon eather. I think we westerners are practising it the worst of all.
People with severe or somewhat severe mental health issues cannot be easily "cured" if at all, particularly through their own initiative. It's not that simple. Ever talked with people who have schizophrenia? I don't think meditating on their own is going to cure all their problems. There was actually a pretty good article in a the NYTimes magazine a week or two ago about hearing voices and people trying to live with it. It takes constant attention from these people and many never get "cured", they just struggle daily with this because nothing works. It's not a matter of discipline or initiative for these people. I find systems that claim the possibility for total self healing and self reliance to be dangerous because of the logical extension of this- that those who cannot heal themselves have failed due to their own shortcomings. Mental illness can be a medical condition just like cancer or influenza, even if its effects and methods of treatment are not identical.

Also, I don't consider the relative age of a study to be indicative of its value or truth (and, in any case, I certainly would not put the start of anything that can be termed pschiatry proper at 3000 years old- it is certainly much newer (although this may be more of a semantic difference). Also, yoga and other similar practices, while extremely helpful to many, are not helpful to all. Additionally, many of these practices and much of this philosophy was formulated within the context of a broader spiritual/religious system. When these practices are extricated from this system, I believe that some of their power is lost.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
People with severe or somewhat severe mental health issues cannot be easily "cured" if at all, particularly through their own initiative. It's not that simple. Ever talked with people who have schizophrenia? I don't think meditating on their own is going to cure all their problems. There was actually a pretty good article in a the NYTimes magazine a week or two ago about hearing voices and people trying to live with it. It takes constant attention from these people and many never get "cured", they just struggle daily with this because nothing works. It's not a matter of discipline or initiative for these people. I find systems that claim the possibility for total self healing and self reliance to be dangerous because of the logical extension of this- that those who cannot heal themselves have failed due to their own shortcomings. Mental illness can be a medical condition just like cancer or influenza, even if its effects and methods of treatment are not identical.

Also, I don't consider the relative age of a study to be indicative of its value or truth (and, in any case, I certainly would not put the start of anything that can be termed pschiatry proper at 3000 years old- it is certainly much newer (although this may be more of a semantic difference). Also, yoga and other similar practices, while extremely helpful to many, are not helpful to all. Additionally, many of these practices and much of this philosophy was formulated within the context of a broader spiritual/religious system. When these practices are extricated from this system, I believe that some of their power is lost.

I bet you never manage to pick up chicks in coffeehouses, do you?
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
I bet you never manage to pick up chicks in coffeehouses, do you?
Ace! :monkey:

People with severe or somewhat severe mental health issues cannot be easily "cured" if at all, particularly through their own initiative. It's not that simple. Ever talked with people who have schizophrenia? I don't think meditating on their own is going to cure all their problems. There was actually a pretty good article in a the NYTimes magazine a week or two ago about hearing voices and people trying to live with it. It takes constant attention from these people and many never get "cured", they just struggle daily with this because nothing works. It's not a matter of discipline or initiative for these people. I find systems that claim the possibility for total self healing and self reliance to be dangerous because of the logical extension of this- that those who cannot heal themselves have failed due to their own shortcomings. Mental illness can be a medical condition just like cancer or influenza, even if its effects and methods of treatment are not identical.

Also, I don't consider the relative age of a study to be indicative of its value or truth (and, in any case, I certainly would not put the start of anything that can be termed pschiatry proper at 3000 years old- it is certainly much newer (although this may be more of a semantic difference). Also, yoga and other similar practices, while extremely helpful to many, are not helpful to all. Additionally, many of these practices and much of this philosophy was formulated within the context of a broader spiritual/religious system. When these practices are extricated from this system, I believe that some of their power is lost.
Very well said, and I agree with everything with reservation that mental illness is a medical condition. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with that and I can therefor not speak about it. My knowledge and experiance with what I spoke of is limited, I have never talked to a schizophrenic person for instance and I haven't studied this. Although I do have some experiance, both personal and from people around me to ad to what I've read and seen in documentaries, and that is how I have come to this conclusion.

Ofcourse how to cure mental illness differs from every individual because of the things that has led to it, and I meant in no way that it is simple to cure those who feel the worst. I just wasn't clear enough when speaking. With curing our selves I didn't mean without guidance. Some sort of a mentor is a fundamental part of self curement, just like a yogi is. So therefore it is not about total self healing and not at all about self reliance.

What I meant with self curement was free from SSRI medicine and everything else that the money hungry patent-right fighting/lobbying/bombing medical industry has put out. The're alternative ways, and controled body movements like in yoga are an essential part of it. The Hindu philosophy of the body, the mind, the world and how they work together is so much more advanced than its western counterpart.

This is because of the very excercises that in the west is simplified as yoga. Cultures around the world with medicine men/women that have for ages practised the use of psychedelics have quite a lot to teach western psychiatry. What we experiance when doing yoga is the exact same thing as when we are high and eventually (with a lot of yoga) on a trip.

What do you mean with that yoga is not helpful to all? I'm convinced it is of great importance to all of us, sick or healthy, in many ways, but not solely as asanas/pranayamas/meditation, we all need guidance.

Yoga, the practice and/or the philosophy, isn't a religion in its self, nor spiritual, or a part that is tied solely to Hinduism. It stands by its self and don't have to mix. Everyone, no matter what their spiritual conviction is, can practice yoga without it interfearing with their religion. You don't bow to any God.

Some, or a lot, of its power is lost when it's many times practiced as it is in the west; as an aerobics class. In all things we do it is important that we choose a good teacher. This is well know in eastern cultures and teachers are even more held up in an honorable place than they are in Greece, Sweden and of what I can see in the west as a whole. There's a philosophy behind that has to be studied and we need that mentor/teacher. The same goes for martial arts.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Ace! :monkey:



Very well said, and I agree with everything with reservation that mental illness is a medical condition. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with that and I can therefor not speak about it. My knowledge and experiance with what I spoke of is limited, I have never talked to a schizophrenic person for instance and I haven't studied this. Although I do have some experiance, both personal and from people around me to ad to what I've read and seen in documentaries, and that is how I have come to this conclusion.

Ofcourse how to cure mental illness differs from every individual because of the things that has led to it, and I meant in no way that it is simple to cure those who feel the worst. I just wasn't clear enough when speaking. With curing our selves I didn't mean without guidance. Some sort of a mentor is a fundamental part of self curement, just like a yogi is. So therefore it is not about total self healing and not at all about self reliance.

What I meant with self curement was free from SSRI medicine and everything else that the money hungry patent-right fighting/lobbying/bombing medical industry has put out. The're alternative ways, and controled body movements like in yoga are an essential part of it. The Hindu philosophy of the body, the mind, the world and how they work together is so much more advanced than its western counterpart.

This is because of the very excercises that in the west is simplified as yoga. Cultures around the world with medicine men/women that have for ages practised the use of psychedelics have quite a lot to teach western psychiatry. What we experiance when doing yoga is the exact same thing as when we are high and eventually (with a lot of yoga) on a trip.

What do you mean with that yoga is not helpful to all? I'm convinced it is of great importance to all of us, sick or healthy, in many ways, but not solely as asanas/pranayamas/meditation, we all need guidance.

Yoga, the practice and/or the philosophy, isn't a religion in its self, nor spiritual, or a part that is tied solely to Hinduism. It stands by its self and don't have to mix. Everyone, no matter what their spiritual conviction is, can practice yoga without it interfearing with their religion. You don't bow to any God.

Some, or a lot, of its power is lost when it's many times practiced as it is in the west; as an aerobics class. In all things we do it is important that we choose a good teacher. This is well know in eastern cultures and teachers are even more held up in an honorable place than they are in Greece, Sweden and of what I can see in the west as a whole. There's a philosophy behind that has to be studied and we need that mentor/teacher. The same goes for martial arts.
I agree with you on many points. I have a large suspicion of pharmaceutical and healthcare companies (even though I basically work for them...or maybe it's because I work for them...). I have done some meditation and was taught by someone well versed in the traditions you're talking about and had the utmost respect for them (he spent many years in India learning and was willing to teach local classes upon returning to the US). I found it helpful and with immense potential that I have, regretably, not fully explored.

My objection was really that there are limits on its use due to the severity of what can be called mental illness. Also, some people simply do not respond well to meditative practices for whatever reason.

I am only familiar with the classic works of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy/religion, so perhaps I cannot comment fully on them. From what I have read, however, I have not been impressed to the point where I'm giving up many of my previously held views. I would contest a view that Hindu philosophy in its (for lack of a better term) worldview is somehow more advanced than western philosophy on the same subjects. I would dare you to define what, precisely, the western view on this is, as I have trouble defining what is in the scope of a "western" tradition, let alone the particulars of a viewpoint based on thousands of years of recorded thought.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Sorry for not returning an answer sooner, we have a nice spring weather and I'm out riding as much as I can..

My objection was really that there are limits on its use due to the severity of what can be called mental illness. Also, some people simply do not respond well to meditative practices for whatever reason.
Can't argue against you as my knowledge is limited.

I am only familiar with the classic works of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy/religion, so perhaps I cannot comment fully on them. From what I have read, however, I have not been impressed to the point where I'm giving up many of my previously held views. I would contest a view that Hindu philosophy in its (for lack of a better term) worldview is somehow more advanced than western philosophy on the same subjects. I would dare you to define what, precisely, the western view on this is, as I have trouble defining what is in the scope of a "western" tradition, let alone the particulars of a viewpoint based on thousands of years of recorded thought.
Asking me to define anything is asking to much of my knowledge. I hope I've been clear enough in pointing that out earlier as I don't want to come across as someone who knows it all.. I spoke my personal view that I have come to reach through time and not facts that i can present or fight for. Hope you didn't have too great expectations of factful answers from me in this case.

I have come to my conclusions from mainly two things: selflived experiances, mainly with psychedelics, added with some kundalini yoga and some input about psychedelics and the mind. The other thing that has contributed to my knowledge is my menotor who's got a similar background of mine, has practiced yoga since the age of 15, and who mainly plows through Hindu/philosophy/psychology-related books.

In general, where I belive western psychology lacks is in its almost nonexistant experiance with psychedelics or acheaving an altered consiousness through breathing/body excercises and deep meditation.

Where our minds can take us with an altered consience far further than the brightest sober minds can. People of the nature, with the guidance of their spiritual leaders, have a several thousand year old experiance of these things, paranormal things and other, that westerners have now slowly started studying through interest groups like www.MAPS.org

It's worth a look, maybe it can give you some answeres of what they're studying that western psychology hasn't been.
 

Kihaji

Norman Einstein
Jan 18, 2004
398
0
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wopsyc0401,0,5215557.story?coll=ny-leadworldnews-headlines

This is really sad, especially what happens to those who seek prayerful alternatives.

Also, when did belief in evil spirits and demonic possessions become solely the province of African superstition? That statement was rather weird, but the rest of the article is rather good.
Come on, modern psychology is barely above the snake oil and prayerful alternatives that you belittle.


If we had any clue what was going on with the brain and it's chemistry I'd have a different opinion. But essentially the only thing we are certain about when it comes to the brain is that it's in the skull. And until we actually get a clue, I think I'll leave my brain chemistry alone thank you very much.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,147
796
Lima, Peru, Peru
Come on, modern psychology is barely above the snake oil and prayerful alternatives that you belittle.
modern psychology, yes. i actually think there is a lot of snake oil in modern psychology with all that talking and ****.

but psychiatry, and neuro-pharmacology? no way. yes, its still incipient (it like what, 60 years old?), but its verifiable effects are damn amazing.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Come on, modern psychology is barely above the snake oil and prayerful alternatives that you belittle.


If we had any clue what was going on with the brain and it's chemistry I'd have a different opinion. But essentially the only thing we are certain about when it comes to the brain is that it's in the skull. And until we actually get a clue, I think I'll leave my brain chemistry alone thank you very much.
What are you, a scientologist?

Please tell me you see a difference between a) working through problems and using medication to correct chemical imbalances and b) using exorcisms and chains and prayer to drive tormenting demons out.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,037
7,555
That is sad. But as a reminder, in our own countries, western medecin and psychiatry is seen as the "only real" way of doing things and other methods have only very recently started to be acknowledged as possible/alternative ways of doing things.
this is soooo not true. of all fields mental health has the most variety: psychiatry itself has many variations, as does psychology/therapy (psychoanalytic, psychodynamic, cognitive behavioral, goal directed, etc.), and acupuncture and other alternative modalities are available and are used by many patients. ask me how i know. (no, don't really.)

JRogers' point that the age of a practice has little to no bearing on whether its been proven to work is also very valid. also true is that antipsychotics are very effective. here's another thing for you: if you think depression merely equals emo kids, and have never seen someone who is truly psychotic then you really shouldn't be prattling on about "corrupt SSRI patent driven medicine".

compare 1930s mental health to 2007 mental health and you'll see while there exist huge shortcomings there also have been tremendous advances. wave your acupuncture/yoga flag all you want but a world without massive state mental hospitals whose residents would never leave is a good thing.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
this is soooo not true. of all fields mental health has the most variety: psychiatry itself has many variations, as does psychology/therapy (psychoanalytic, psychodynamic, cognitive behavioral, goal directed, etc.), and acupuncture and other alternative modalities are available and are used by many patients. ask me how i know. (no, don't really.)
You're studying to be a doctor of medicine, if I remember correctly. Alternative modalities are for some time now being used. In Sweden for instance acupuncture is used in hospitals but only for painreleaf and is not allowed/recognized for anything else. We are slowly progressing though.

JRogers' point that the age of a practice has little to no bearing on whether its been proven to work is also very valid.
It has to be studied before it can be proven.. In our world it is a common thing to think that the things known and practiced by our kind is better than the unknown and therefore dodgy things of our neighbour. A lot of alternative methods havn't been thouroughly studied in the west so that they can be recognized.

As an example, the widest spread healing/medicinal herb, dating from a few thousand years B.C. up until the 19th century, was Cannabis Sativa. It wasn't studied by an independent organization, the UN, until late 90's, earlier studies were waved off as biased due to that they had been paid by an interest group, and after that the results were classified. Why?

also true is that antipsychotics are very effective.
I don't doubt it one bit, they shut you of and make you a lesser fealing human being. Who cares as long as you can be productive and serve das kapital. Some really sick people might need them though, but here's for wrighting out prescriptions all too easily. :plthumbsdown:

here's another thing for you: if you think depression merely equals emo kids, and have never seen someone who is truly psychotic then you really shouldn't be prattling on about "corrupt SSRI patent driven medicine".
It is pretty common in this northern country, people really feel like sheit here. Although it is not accepted to be weak and talk about it.. Haven't known a scizophrenic, no, but I used to work with a guy, who's never taken any drug, that was put in hospital after not being able to sleep at all for quite some time (a week or so, dunno). For years now that I've known him his eyes can stare through led.. Is that a sign of a psychotic person?

If not, after overdoing a lot of psychedelics for some years, I did my own journey and came back (not that Freemason journey Alexis spoke of ;) ). Not at all with the help of western medicine, and only with the slightest of help from cognitive behavioral therapy (which did more harm than good). That was an insight and experiance that probably no books can match.

During that time I was at a seminar about SSRI medicines, and the information I obtained there really drew me away from the pharma(spelling) industry. Their greed and push for people to solve their problems by buying their drugs is all too obvious. One has to be really blue eyed and brought up within their system to not look at their solutions of how we should solve our "problems" criticly.

For instance, they are advocating that women should take SSRI medicines during two weeks when having period, just because of their mood changes. Two weeks every month! That is effing with nature!! It's the normal state that in which nature created us and "big company" doesn't want us to be in that way. It is typical for our society that we aren't allowed to be as we are, naturally or sick.

I've seen many people on that SSRI ****, they aren't them selves while onnit. A good friends mom was in psycho intensive care for 10days after for some time been medicated a normal dose of that ****! Another guy I know walks around as partially emotionally shut of because of other psycho medicines.
There was no way I was going to take that ****, I chose to be my sick self cus that was my natural state at that time.

But this is bigger than the medical industry. I've had the luxury of learning about Babylon from my parents, and I've continued to study it since. It's in that context we should put this whole thing.

compare 1930s mental health to 2007 mental health and you'll see while there exist huge shortcomings there also have been tremendous advances. wave your acupuncture/yoga flag all you want but a world without massive state mental hospitals whose residents would never leave is a good thing.
I haven't been saying that we shouldn't have mental hospitals, only that there should be a major effort in studying ways of treating similar diseases in other cultures. Ways that could be better alone, or as a combination with western and different practises improve treatments. But one can't patent yoga excercises, nor Cannabis Sativa..

That there have been progressions is of course a natural thing to mankind, we progress. A problem with us though is that we don't look upon our present with humbleness and say; "hey, if we've progressed this far in X years, which has meant that we've proven our initial beliefes wrong, in another X years we might prove our selves wrong once again". We seriously lack the wisdom to continuosly look at our history and learn from it (this is a general observation of us).

Example: in the 70's we didn't have a clue about over energetic people with DAMP/ADHD. There was a girl with that condition that they, in 1970's Sweden, kept strapped to her bed in a mental facility!

Will we not look back in 25 years on some of the current state of the art treatments and shake our heads in disgust of our own ignorance? Sure we will, and I'll tell you what we will say: "that was then, we have new modern ways now", without the slightest humbleness that those "new modern ways" might be looked upon with the same disgust in another not far distant time.

The way out from this hamster wheel is by learning from history so that we stop thinking that we and our known current ways is the shlt, and look see if we can learn something from our neighbours ways of doing things.

Them medicine men and their patients in the linked article above don't have higher education or any great possibilities of obtaining information. We westerners don't have that excuse. We continue to do things "our way" out of pride and stupidity.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Will we not look back in 25 years on some of the current state of the art treatments and shake our heads in disgust of our own ignorance? Sure we will, and I'll tell you what we will say: "that was then, we have new modern ways now", without the slightest humbleness that those "new modern ways" might be looked upon with the same disgust in another not far distant time.

The way out from this hamster wheel is by learning from history so that we stop thinking that we and our known current ways is the shlt, and look see if we can learn something from our neighbours ways of doing things.

Them medicine men and their patients in the linked article above don't have higher education or any great possibilities of obtaining information. We westerners don't have that excuse. We continue to do things "our way" out of pride and stupidity.
Of course we will look back and see ignorance, especially if we keep learning at the pace we've been learning for the past 50 years or so. That doesn't mean that we should be looking towards untested methodologies that have not been fully, scientifically studied. If you want to push for meditation as a viable alternative for treatment, then you will have to find some objective way of verifying its effectiveness, otherwise you may as well ask us to pray for patients.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Of course we will look back and see ignorance, especially if we keep learning at the pace we've been learning for the past 50 years or so. That doesn't mean that we should be looking towards untested methodologies that have not been fully, scientifically studied. If you want to push for meditation as a viable alternative for treatment, then you will have to find some objective way of verifying its effectiveness, otherwise you may as well ask us to pray for patients.
That is scientifically tested in the west you mean. I could bet you the Chinese have studied the movement of energies that can be controlled/directed with acupuncture. Whether or not, it should be studied in the west aswell as it is the best way to spread the knowledge over here.

Again, I belive there are great interests that don't want that to happen as they will lose out on a lot of dough. The faith that we westerners have in pills will decline if we prove that that mumbo jumbo actually works..

You can't compare yoga to praying. Yoga is controled body movements for different kind of parts of the body that should be put together in a balanced way so that the whole body gets to contract and strech. Combine that with controled breathing and guided relaxation and you will eventually reach out of body experiances and hopefully, with time, trip.

You should really try it, and don't worry it won't interfere with your atheist conviction and principles. Take a course of 10-15 classes and you will feel as good as you've ever done when you felt total presence and calmness in your body and mind after a magnificent bike ride.
And that is just the start of something you impossibly can imagine...
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
That is scientifically tested in the west you mean. I could bet you the Chinese have studied the movement of energies that can be controlled/directed with acupuncture. Whether or not, it should be studied in the west aswell as it is the best way to spread the knowledge over here.
It doesn't matter where it is scientifically tested, let's see the science. The movement of lifeforce or chi or whatever is not a scientific concept as yet. If someone can come up with a way to test/quantify it, then so be it, but until then many of the effects can be chalked up to placebo effect.

You can't compare yoga to praying. Yoga is controled body movements for different kind of parts of the body that should be put together in a balanced way so that the whole body gets to contract and strech. Combine that with controled breathing and guided relaxation and you will eventually reach out of body experiances and hopefully, with time, trip.
It's called exercise and we already know about it. That yoga is a targeted exercise to stretch and work out certain muscle groups is no different from any targeted work-out regime.

You should really try it, and don't worry it won't interfere with your atheist conviction and principles. Take a course of 10-15 classes and you will feel as good as you've ever done when you felt total presence and calmness in your body and mind after a magnificent bike ride.
And that is just the start of something you impossibly can imagine...
Have you read Sam Harris's book The End of Faith? He devotes the last chapter to this sort of "spirituality. I bring that up because of the atheist comment, which was sort of a non sequitor, but whatever.

Yes, exercise is good for the body and the mind. Western medicine has figured that out too.
 

Kihaji

Norman Einstein
Jan 18, 2004
398
0
It doesn't matter where it is scientifically tested, let's see the science. The movement of lifeforce or chi or whatever is not a scientific concept as yet. If someone can come up with a way to test/quantify it, then so be it, but until then many of the effects can be chalked up to placebo effect.
It is a scientific concept, and has been studied. You can find countless studies published on the topic of Chi.

And I know that you, being the great and all powerful scientist that you are, should know that in scientific study you never prove anything, you disprove. And until something is disproven, it is a viable and legitimate explanation.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
It is a scientific concept, and has been studied. You can find countless studies published on the topic of Chi.
I may very well be ignorant of those studies. Can you provide some cites please? Please be advised that studies have been done on the efficacy of prayer as well, which doesn't mean that prayer is a scientific concept.

And I know that you, being the great and all powerful scientist that you are, should know that in scientific study you never prove anything, you disprove. And until something is disproven, it is a viable and legitimate explanation.
That's not entirely true. Most scientific studies set out to provide positive evidence for what is being studied. Additionally, your "something" does need some positive evidence in order to be viable and legitimate, else it would be viable and legitimate to say that angels hold people down and that's why we don't float away, since that has not been disproven.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,037
7,555
It is a scientific concept, and has been studied. You can find countless studies published on the topic of Chi.

And I know that you, being the great and all powerful scientist that you are, should know that in scientific study you never prove anything, you disprove. And until something is disproven, it is a viable and legitimate explanation.
post up some references or kindly shut up and sit in the corner
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
And until something is disproven, it is a viable and legitimate explanation.
That's not even close. There are better and worse explanations for things.

Let me guess, you took Philosophy 101 at some point and now consider yourself a deep thinker, right?
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
It doesn't matter where it is scientifically tested, let's see the science. The movement of lifeforce or chi or whatever is not a scientific concept as yet. If someone can come up with a way to test/quantify it, then so be it, but until then many of the effects can be chalked up to placebo effect.
That is a perfect example of the lack of hubleness that we in general posses of our abilities and our belief in science/scientists. Truth is that scientists haven't got an answer to a whole heep of things, never mind descovered it all.

Bitter fact is that even though the west is the leading culture of our time, some cultures may be more advanced in a few areas than we are.

Placebo? It works, defenetly! But you don't have out of body exeriances or trips on sugar pills. I don't want to sound cocky because of the the experiances I have, and I am sad that I can't say this in a humble pedagogicly correct way, but it's obvious that you don't know what those type of experiances are and that when you speak up about this.

It's called exercise and we already know about it. That yoga is a targeted exercise to stretch and work out certain muscle groups is no different from any targeted work-out regime.
Yes, a part of it can be seen as regular excercise that helps us to keep fit just like any excercise does, but those body movements main purpose is to release tensions.t is Why? Because it is a lesson that has come out of all those thousands of years of yoga studies and is a fundamental part of their philosophy that "resistance in body is resistance in mind".

Resistance to do what?

Show me a western form of "excercise" that has anything close in resemblance to the philosophy and teachings of yoga, both about man and cosmos. There isn't any, nothing goes this deep.

Have you read Sam Harris's book The End of Faith? He devotes the last chapter to this sort of "spirituality. I bring that up because of the atheist comment, which was sort of a non sequitor, but whatever.

Yes, exercise is good for the body and the mind. Western medicine has figured that out too.
My atheist comment wasn't meant in a bad way. I have got the impression that you are an atheist and I mentioned it just because if there was a possibility that you would have anything aginst experiancing yoga because of it and any eventual spirituality you think it has.

No, I haven't read it. Will that book give me a stronger insight that my own personal experiances have given me? I say this as I remember my third yoga class. When everybody had left, I went to the teacher and asked if there was a book he recomended for me to read as I didn't understand what the F I was doing there.. Was it just gymnastics or what the hell was it, I asked pretty frustrated.

He told me that several books have been written that try to explain it, but it was an experiance and not something that should be read about. He told me to be patient and wait, It would come to me.. Luckily, after the 4th time I had realized that it rezembled a lot to my favourite hobby; smoking herbs. The places you can travel with those body, breathing and relaxation excercises will make astronauts envy. SERIOUSLY!

The greatest thing I can do for you is to tell you to swap your bike for yoga once a week.

Hope you have oversight with my vocabular shortcommings.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
And there are plenty of buddhists who would say that drug use or even the use of meditation to acheive a "trip" of sorts are horrendously misleading spiritual practices that are entirely counterproductive to acheiving a useful, clear frame of mind, and prevent you from experiencing reality beyond our own consciousness.

Just sayin'.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
Sigh. To say something "isn't scientifically proven" isn't to say it "doesn't exist." It is to say that it has not been proven with certain methods. This is not open to argument. Science makes no claims that it knows everything, nor that it has figured out ways to test everything. It is perfectly fine that there are phenomenon that can't be explained yet by science. That doesn't make science wrong, nor does it make those phenomenon non-existant.

Friggin' new agers need so much validation. If it works for you, just STFU and keep doing it.

edited for clarity and to correct a negative
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
That is a perfect example of the lack of hubleness that we in general posses of our abilities and our belief in science/scientists. Truth is that scientists haven't got an answer to a whole heep of things, never mind descovered it all.
I fail to see how. There's a reason that we follow the scientific method, and that is because subjective methods do not work.

Bitter fact is that even though the west is the leading culture of our time, some cultures may be more advanced in a few areas than we are.
I would not dispute that. But, and sufficiently advanced culture does not necessarily mean advanced medical knowledge.

Placebo? It works, defenetly! But you don't have out of body exeriances or trips on sugar pills. I don't want to sound cocky because of the the experiances I have, and I am sad that I can't say this in a humble pedagogicly correct way, but it's obvious that you don't know what those type of experiances are and that when you speak up about this.
Yet we know that people not doing yoga can experience the same things. It's part of brain chemistry and can be self-induced, but that doesn't make it therapeutic.

Yes, a part of it can be seen as regular excercise that helps us to keep fit just like any excercise does, but those body movements main purpose is to release tensions.t is Why? Because it is a lesson that has come out of all those thousands of years of yoga studies and is a fundamental part of their philosophy that "resistance in body is resistance in mind".
All exercise released tension.
Show me a western form of "excercise" that has anything close in resemblance to the philosophy and teachings of yoga, both about man and cosmos. There isn't any, nothing goes this deep.
Why do you need philosophy in order to do exercise?

My atheist comment wasn't meant in a bad way. I have got the impression that you are an atheist and I mentioned it just because if there was a possibility that you would have anything aginst experiancing yoga because of it and any eventual spirituality you think it has.
I know that, and it wouldn't concern me. I'm not afraid that in doing yoga it will turn me into a theist or something.

No, I haven't read it. Will that book give me a stronger insight that my own personal experiances have given me?
No. I simply thought it fit with the comment about atheism and spirituality.

Hope you have oversight with my vocabular shortcommings.
I would never criticize your vocab or spelling, etc. You are much better with English than I am with any other language.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
I fail to see how. There's a reason that we follow the scientific method, and that is because subjective methods do not work.



I would not dispute that. But, and sufficiently advanced culture does not necessarily mean advanced medical knowledge.



Yet we know that people not doing yoga can experience the same things. It's part of brain chemistry and can be self-induced, but that doesn't make it therapeutic.



All exercise released tension.


Why do you need philosophy in order to do exercise?



I know that, and it wouldn't concern me. I'm not afraid that in doing yoga it will turn me into a theist or something.



No. I simply thought it fit with the comment about atheism and spirituality.



I would never criticize your vocab or spelling, etc. You are much better with English than I am with any other language.
sounds all good until someone busts on your deeply held global warming beliefs....


:p
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
And there are plenty of buddhists who would say that drug use or even the use of meditation to acheive a "trip" of sorts are horrendously misleading spiritual practices that are entirely counterproductive to acheiving a useful, clear frame of mind, and prevent you from experiencing reality beyond our own consciousness.

Just sayin'.
That's interesting, I experianced it the other way around.. They must be full of it since it don't fit my view. :D ;)

Friggin' new agers need so much validation. If it works for you, just STFU and keep doing it.
Now that I'm branded, maybe $tinkle could lend me his cup.

I have no need for validation, in this case at least. I'm just trying to spread some light on something I find important for people to become aware of, and start practicing, as it will get them to know them selves better and therefore help this general situation we're in. A state of collective "lost".

I also speak up about this because of the general belief that alternative medicine, self help, and all ancient ways are mumbo jumbo and belong to the state of lesser general awarenes of the past.



For this topic I recomend listening to Sabbaths album "Master of Reality", an album that was to be called War Pigs (the record company stoped that name because of te ongoing Vietnam war) but instead was given another good name, and in particular the song "Sweet Leaf" in which he sings praises to what gave him "a useful, clear frame of mind" and helped him experiencing reality beyond his own consciousness.

Ozzy might reach some of you that I can't. :)

I fail to see how. There's a reason that we follow the scientific method, and that is because subjective methods do not work.
Because of your way of reasoning in the quote below; that clearly lacks self critisism in its belief that science (and mankind therefore) is enough evolved to give an answer to all things. You are your self stating that science hasn't come up with "a way to test/quantify it". Why don't you use your own way of logic and rule out science and say that it in some things is still on a stage of half quackery?

Looking back just a few decades on how sertain things were seen and solved by western medicin and psychiatry one might ask that question. We will look back at present time and think the same even though it doesn't exist in our minds that we could be believing and practising some things so very wrong today.

I can't speak up about subjective methods and I think science should be applied to understand things, but for Pete's sake have some humbleness about that the hottest **** of today, and therefore all time, could be just a turd just tomorrow.

It doesn't matter where it is scientifically tested, let's see the science. The movement of lifeforce or chi or whatever is not a scientific concept as yet. If someone can come up with a way to test/quantify it, then so be it, but until then many of the effects can be chalked up to placebo effect.

I would not dispute that. But, and sufficiently advanced culture does not necessarily mean advanced medical knowledge.
No it doesn't.

Yet we know that people not doing yoga can experience the same things. It's part of brain chemistry and can be self-induced, but that doesn't make it therapeutic.
I would say that it defenetly is therapeutic and a nessesary thing for all of us. With reservations for some mentaly ill that, as someone earlier pointed out, don't answer any good to this treatment.

All exercise released tension.


Why do you need philosophy in order to do exercise?
Quit playin.

I know that, and it wouldn't concern me. I'm not afraid that in doing yoga it will turn me into a theist or something.
Good! Now give in to your intelectual curiousity and apply your scientific mind on a set of yoga classes. :monkey:
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,335
2,448
Hypernormality
I personally have a bit of mixed view on this. For a change I'm probably the moderate here.

I have seen and experienced the brute power and effectiveness of modern western medicine and techniques many times, but I have also experienced profound help and effects from 'traditional' techniques.

It is certainly possible to increase your body's basic response to a injury or infection through techniques that modern medicine doesn't generally put much stock in. Concentration and meditation can help ease various types of pain and injury and even help fight infection and promote healing.

Listening to your body, stretching, massage, exercise and general self awareness are all tools more powerful than codine when it comes to pain relief in any other cases than severely acute.

Tai Chi, yoga, massage, acupuncture, schools of meditation are all essentially efforts to codify the inate ability humans have to self heal if we listen to our body's want and needs closely.

A few months back I was injured at gym after landing on my head during learning inward flips (gainers). I had some nasty muscle strains in my neck and strains and tears into my thoracic muscles, especially on the right side.

In the immediate time after I did it, the pain was so intense I could not relax enough to release the tension I was holding through the injured areas. I went to the Doctor and got drugs to temporarily block the pain. This allowed the spasms to release and natural healing processes to begin. My neck and spine were pretty tweaked out though, so the Doc wanted me to use drugs in the longer term to dull my nervous system with the hope of allowing my muscles to heal and my spine to realign itself.

This is the side of western medicine I have a problem with. I came off the initial painkillers as soon as I could relax myself properly, then used mainly relaxation techniques, stretching (real gently at first), trigger point, deep tissue and swedish massage, chiropractice and exercise to sort myself out. I didn't take a bunch of drugs and I feel I have a understanding of the injury and the way my body has fixed it that I would not get using the blanketing techniques of western medicine. I now actually have better muscular balance in my upper back than before I was injured.

Essentially I think there is a balance here, I wouldn't use acupuncture for a compound fracture, but equally I very resistant to using antibiotics for a perfectly average stomach bug. There are things the body and the mind can do perfectly well, and often trying to 'help' it it in these circumstances is teaching it to be weak. I encourage people to try an experience their sicknesses more thoroughly. So often now when we are sick with really non-life threatening stuff like a 48hr flu or stomach bug or whatever we just 'medicate' ourselves without question. I think this is where we are going wrong. Ride it. Understand your body's reactions. Think about it. You can use conscious thought to control your muscles, your emotions, your reactions, your state of consciousness, and you can also use it to help heal yourself, to induce your body to heal for itself. With experience you can recognise your reactions to illness earlier and be well again faster just by 'feel', a bit of appropriate behavior modification and a bit of mental effort.

Essentially, I think we must use the right tool for the right job. There is a huge grey area here where different people, subtleties of injury and personal psychology are involved in what might be the 'best' cure, but I personally will always try and let myself sort myself out to the amazing extent it is capable of if just trusted and allowed to do so.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
I personally have a bit of mixed view on this. For a change I'm probably the moderate here.
I think your absolutely right. Most people, including western scientists, would agree that some traditional/holistic methods have definite effects. Because we don't yet have scientific methods for understanding and testing these methods, they cannot be integrated into Western medicine. This is not to discredit or invalidate the methods, but it does make it very difficult for accredited doctors and hospitals to dispense this type of treatment.

So yes, it works. No it is not scientific. Get the **** over it and quit looking for validation (not directed at you Chang, directed at all those people that bemoan western medicine, yet need western medecine's validation to satisfy their twisted battered wife syndrome [rockwool]).
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
swedish massage
That's the one between tits, huh?!! :thumb:

So yes, it works. No it is not scientific. Get the **** over it and quit looking for validation (not directed at you Chang, directed at all those people that bemoan western medicine, yet need western medecine's validation to satisfy their twisted battered wife syndrome [rockwool]).
I know, I'm such a spaz...
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,037
7,555
Most people, including western scientists, would agree that some traditional/holistic methods have definite effects. Because we don't yet have scientific methods for understanding and testing these methods, they cannot be integrated into Western medicine.
uh, if they have "definite effects" then these effects should be verifiable in a randomized controlled trial.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
uh, if they have "definite effects" then these effects should be verifiable in a randomized controlled trial.
Sure, and you'll find some studies that show statistically significant effects of all kinds of traditional or holistic treatments. I'm not claiming ALL treatments produce effects, or that the effects are at all consistent in their range of efficacy. I'm also referring to everything from herbal remedies, to what is essentially stretching and exercise (yoga), to what could be argued as placebo effect but still affects things like healing/recovery. Are you going to argue that if you do a bunch of **** to your body and mind it will have NO effect?