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The straw that broke the Camel's back

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,903
2,864
Pōneke
Blatently ctrl+c'd (and cropped a bit) from the Telegraph.co.uk - Cheers Boris for saying it better than I could.

The Telegraph is centre-right UK broadsheet. It is the highest circulation non-tabloid paper. I don't always agree with it, but I like Boris Johnson.

---
How could I have been such a mug?
By Boris Johnson
(Filed: 06/05/2004)

I was sitting in the Commons tea room last week, munching a mournful rock cake and studying the accounts of the American bombing of Fallujah. I looked at the charred Humvees, the mutilated corpses, the unnumbered dead, the wailing women and the expressions of immortal hate on the faces of the Iraqis; and perhaps unsurprisingly I found myself cast into a terrible gloom.

Just remind me, I said, turning to a colleague and friend, what is the case for this war in Iraq? You voted for it. I voted for it. We both spoke in favour of it. We both saw the merits of sticking with the Americans. We both believed that it was a good idea to get rid of Saddam.

But is there not a time when we have to admit, in all intellectual honesty, that our positions have been overwhelmed by countervailing data? How on Earth can we now defend what seems - admittedly at some distance - to be a total bloody shambles?

"Oh come off it, mate," he said, because he is not only a hawk, but has a keen and impatient mind, "don't be so wet. You want a single big argument for the war? The key point is that people are no longer being tortured in jails in Baghdad. That's what we have achieved."

It was as if the clouds had rolled back. I felt a sudden burst of optimism. "You're right!" I said, and thought how silly I had been to ignore that gigantic fact, that we had introduced new values to Iraq, of civilisation and decency.

The following day I saw the pictures from the Abu Ghraib jail.

The whole planet has been seething with anger and disgust at these photos: the murdered Iraqi prisoners, the man wearing a hood and a set of electrodes, the naked Iraqi soldiers being tormented by American servicewomen - an image that could have been devised by Osama bin Laden himself for its capacity to inflame Arab feeling.

But I have felt the extra rage of one who has been a mug. Up and down the country, I have given the same defence of the operation. "Of course Saddam never had anything to do with September 11, and of course he never had any weapons of mass destruction. But there is one powerful reason for supporting the liberation of Iraq," I say, "and that is that we rid the world of an odious tyrant, and we have made life better for the Iraqi people."

Well, look at what is happening now. As Julian Manyon reports from Baghdad in this week's Spectator, many main highways are no longer under American control, because the Iraqi police have melted away. Reconstruction has come to a halt, and half of all foreign workers have fled the country. As the siege of Fallujah has gone on, it has become more and more obvious that poor Tony Blair is engaged in yet another hopeless exercise in mendacity. These are not just "foreigners and terrorists" who are putting up resistance to the coalition forces; they are Iraqis, who believe that their country is itself under occupation by foreigners who sometimes do little to distinguish themselves from terrorists.

If it were just the Daily Mirror, with its dodgy photos, the impact would not be so disastrous. But these American photos are manifestly not stunted up, and this is the Abu Ghraib jail. This is the jail that was at the centre of the pro-war propaganda. This is the place where - or so we were told - Saddam's torturers fed people into industrial shredders and then chucked the remains in the fish ponds.

How could the American army have been so crass, so arrogant, so brutal as to behave in this way? The trailer-trash troops said they had no idea what they were doing. They weren't even aware of the existence of the Geneva Conventions. They didn't have any orders to obey, only vague instructions.

Was this really the operation I had voted for? Did I really think, when the House of Commons voted to support the American action on March 18, 2003, that it would be carried out with such boneheaded stupidity?

These people seem not only to lack the faintest idea of how to bring peace to Iraq; they also seem not to understand the values - such as basic human rights - which we hoped to bring to that country.

• Boris Johnson is MP for Henley and editor of The Spectator
---

And some quotes to finish with:

G.W.Bush October 18, 2003

"We don't torture people in America. And people who make that claim just don't know anything about our country."

Donald Rumsfield Dec 14th 2003

"You know, to even raise the word torture in terms of how the US Military would treat a person seems to me is unfortunate. We don't torture people..."

Seriously, is it not time for America as a whole to finally wise up to the liar-in-chief? How can anyone defend this? Standing for freedom and democracy - being the 'good-guys' - that's gone now. We're left with the truth that Bush's most aggresive critics were 100% justified. The man is a liability to the planet. I cannot believe people still find his actions justified. Whatever you thought about Iraq and the reasons for going there, America has now shot itself not simply in the foot, but square between the eyes. The Arab media and a good deal of Arab street HATE us. HATE. The hypocracy, whilst perhalps not unprecidented, is this time on plain view for the world. For all the pretention of truth, justice and the American way, there is now reality to behold for the masses. We are no better. The sad thing is I'm not in the least suprised.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
So some schmoe has a change of heart and the rest of us should fall in line? I think not. If you're basing the ENTIRE US effort off of the dealings in Fallujah and that one prison, I say youre missing the big picture.
Have you talked to people working there?
Now dont get me wrong here. I aint exactly a Bush fan, per se., but until I get a better solution, that's where my vote is headed. Ive heard nothing from Mr. Kerry that will in any way improve the life for Iraqis.
Have you?

What do you suggest the US and UK do now?

Just leave and let the extremists with the RPG's take control of the government? What message does that send? What's your answer?
 

Spud

Monkey
Aug 9, 2001
550
0
Idaho (no really!)
I love it when the people bag on Kerry for not having an exit strategy for Iraq. Who made the decision to "own" Iraq as Colin Powell put it?

Clearly since George the Lesser got us in there, he's the man to get us out. Continuity by gawd.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by Changleen
Blatently ctrl+c'd (and cropped a bit) from the Telegraph.co.uk - Cheers Boris for saying it better than I could.
you ever check out christopher hitchens? he's a hawkish ex-briton. Back on topic then...
Originally posted by Changleen
and perhaps unsurprisingly I found myself cast into a terrible gloom.
well, we're at war...
Originally posted by Changleen
But is there not a time when we have to admit, in all intellectual honesty,
...
The following day I saw the pictures from the Abu Ghraib jail.
here's some intellectual honesty: those pictures weren't of torture. A couple stories for perspective:

1: When i first started pararescue training in the air force, we had a ritual for the newbies called "atomic sit-ups", which essentially is used to "find out how strong your abs are". In reality here's what happened: You drop to the mat in standard situp position, but with one addition: you have someone at your feet & at your head holding a towel each over these areas. This is the misdirection. You are told this added resistance is necessary to truly test your meddle & see how many atomic situps you can do. While your view is blocked by the towel being held taut over your head, someone else straddles you & drops trow. You try & you try to situp, fighting the resistance until a signal is given and the guy holding the towel over your head lets go & you spring up right into someone's ass - face first. Oh, the humanity! You have a laugh & go wash your face.

2: a common hazing ritual at UVA in the 80's was to see how much you trust the brothers. You'd be naked on the roof of the fraternity house with a string tied to your schlong. The string would hang down over the roof & loop back up to where a brother is holding the other end, standing next to you. He demonstrates it is indeed the same string. He ties a brick or cinderblock to the other end. You are now joined. There's a huge ramp up to make you think he may or may not throw the brick over the edge of the house. While you're distracted, the string which is out of view & has slacked on the ground is cut. He asks, "do you trust the brothers?" Eventually, he tosses the string & you pass the test if you don't flinch.

the point of these two missives has been that because of these two experiences, i'm going to be hard pressed to believe that what has happened is torture. I have no knowledge as to the findings of these deaths of the iraqi prisoners which has recently been reported, so i'm still holding out for that.
Originally posted by Changleen
of course he never had any weapons of mass destruction.
either we sold them WMD & they used them on iranians & the kurds, or we didn't. Evidence supports the former.
Originally posted by Changleen
This is the jail that was at the centre of the pro-war propaganda. This is the place where - or so we were told - Saddam's torturers fed people into industrial shredders and then chucked the remains in the fish ponds.
i see.
the burden of proof is on us? from the foreign & commonwealth office of london
Originally posted by Changleen
How could the American army have been so crass, so arrogant, so brutal as to behave in this way? The trailer-trash troops said they had no idea what they were doing. They weren't even aware of the existence of the Geneva Conventions. They didn't have any orders to obey, only vague instructions.
i'm waiting to read about his "outrage" for the anal raping of jessica lynch, and other stories of torture by the fedayeen saddam.
Originally posted by Changleen
And some quotes to finish with:

G.W.Bush October 18, 2003

"We don't torture people in America. And people who make that claim just don't know anything about our country."

Donald Rumsfield Dec 14th 2003

"You know, to even raise the word torture in terms of how the US Military would treat a person seems to me is unfortunate. We don't torture people..."
every knows we farm out our torturing to egypt
Originally posted by Changleen
The Arab media and a good deal of Arab street HATE us. HATE.
as if the arab street was ever on the fence just waiting to see how this thing played out. C'mon, they've hated us forever & jackoff to these pictures cuz they know they can recruit more of their own impoverished for homicide bombings in exchange of 72 virgins & the lot.
Originally posted by Changleen
The hypocracy, whilst perhalps not unprecidented, is this time on plain view for the world. For all the pretention of truth, justice and the American way, there is now reality to behold for the masses. We are no better. The sad thing is I'm not in the least suprised.
reading this, i'm lead to believe we're on par with the kmer rouge, or tribal slaughters tween the tutsis & the hutus (i know i didn't spell that right), or serbian ethnic cleansing, but the numbers just aren't there.
 

sshappy

Chimp
Apr 20, 2004
97
0
Middle of Nowhere
$tinkle, are you trying to justify what happened with your post above? In case you were, you can't. The US is supposed to occupy the moral high ground and has clearly lost it. I doubt anyone truly believes that the US is in the ame league as Saddam's regime when it comes to breaching human rights but that does not justify the actions of these few morons.

Sadly this and Fallujah have probably turned those who were not anti-coalition away and will have made the ideal of a democratic and western-friendly middle east very much more remote.

As for your anecdotes, it ain't the same thing.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,903
2,864
Pōneke
Sorry, really busy at work right now -

Just wanted to post this article a friend sent me:

Red Cross repeatedly warned about jail
Thu 6 May, 2004 15:38

GENEVA (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says it had repeatedly urged the United States to take "corrective action" at a Baghdad jail at the centre of a scandal over abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

The Geneva-based humanitarian agency, mandated under international treaties to visit detainees, has had regular access to Abu Ghraib prison since U.S.-led forces began using it last year, according to chief spokeswoman Antonella Notari.

"The ICRC, aware of the situation, and based on its findings, has repeatedly asked the U.S. authorities to take corrective action," she told Reuters on Thursday.

Notari declined to give details of what the ICRC had seen during the visits, which take place every five to six weeks, or about its reports to the U.S. authorities.

The United Nations said separately that it had written to U.S. authorities, including Secretary of State Colin Powell and Governor of Iraq Paul Bremer, seeking information on human rights in Iraq over the past year, including treatment of detainees.

The Iraqi Governing Council and foreign ministers of other members of the U.S.-led coalition had also been asked to provide information.

The Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights said in a statement its team was ready to visit Baghdad for talks with coalition and Iraqi leaders, before submitting a report on May 31. The inquiry is being led by Jakob Moller, a lawyer and human rights expert.

The ICRC, which has been operating since the late 19th century, keeps a public silence about what it hears from detainees as the price for gaining access to jails in trouble spots around the world from Chechnya to West Africa.

Pictures of grinning U.S. soldiers abusing naked Iraqis at Abu Ghraib, Iraq's largest prison and notorious under Saddam Hussein for torture, have sparked an international outcry.

In a bid to limit damage to the U.S. image, President George W. Bush went on two Arabic satellite television stations on Wednesday to tell an outraged Middle East that soldiers guilty of abusing Iraqi prisoners would be punished.

WANTON CRIMINAL ABUSES

Bush aides said the president had upbraided Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for not having alerted him to the severity of the abuse at the jail, which was also the focus of a separate earlier probe by a U.S. general.

That report by Major-General Antonio Taguba, covering the period October-December 2003 and completed on March 3, cited incidents of "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses".

The ICRC has also visited thousands of prisoners under the control of U.S. and British forces, which are also being investigated after a British newspaper published pictures of a soldier apparently urinating on an Iraqi detainee.

But Notari declined to comment on what officials had seen in British-run jails.

Under the Geneva Conventions on both prisoners and the treatment of civilians in wartime, the ICRC must be allowed to interview detainees in private and on a regular basis.

On these terms, it has carried out two visits to Saddam, who is being held somewhere in Iraq since his capture by U.S. troops shortly before Christmas.

"It is important that people understand our role, which is to be present and to have a dialogue with the authorities," Notari said.

But on a few occasions the Red Cross has broken its vow of silence because either the authority concerned has issued a partial account of the ICRC's findings or has simply failed to take any action after a long period.

One such example involved Israeli treatment of detained Palestinians some 20 years ago, when the ICRC went public with its criticism, Notari said.

More recently, the ICRC has expressed mounting frustration over the situation of Afghan and other detainees at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, announcing that its concerns about conditions and treatment were not being addressed.
 

brenth

Monkey
Jun 14, 2002
221
0
Santa Monica
Originally posted by $tinkle
.here's some intellectual honesty: those pictures weren't of torture. A couple stories for perspective:
wow :eek:

did you see all of those pictures? And even if the soldiers involved for what ever reason saw what they were doing as fratish pranks, or as Rush said, "blowing off steam", they shoulda known how their actions were going to be taken, espcially at that place.

The whole "prank" idea is a ****ty way of tryng to defend it, imho. It was torture, a frat prank is something that is somewhat expected, the frat guys know that some messed up **** is going to happen to them, and its about how they take it, but does any frat pledge honestly belive that they might die during the prank or hazing?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by brenth
did you see all of those pictures? And even if the soldiers involved for what ever reason saw what they were doing as fratish pranks, or as Rush said, "blowing off steam", they shoulda known how their actions were going to be taken, espcially at that place.
i'm pretty sure i've seen the greatest hits.
i actually thought the soldiers working the prison were softening up these prisoners. Remind me: why are they prisoners & not killed? Is it our twisted way of fighting a war that we don't kill, or are we just "hamstrung by this silly thing called the geneva convention"?
Originally posted by brenth
The whole "prank" idea is a ****ty way of tryng to defend it, imho. It was torture, a frat prank is something that is somewhat expected, the frat guys know that some messed up **** is going to happen to them, and its about how they take it, but does any frat pledge honestly belive that they might die during the prank or hazing?
charles ng & leonard lake tortured.
by your logic, i was tortured all during 5th grade, where i was the only white boy in my class, & every monday was 'beat up whitey day', where i was more often than not left alone, but still carried the fear off a whoopin. Not just that 'gee it sucks to not be able to kick ass back', but the kind that makes you change your route to & from school & you carry that around. No different than most bullying, i'm sure.

Again, b/c of the stuff i've seen & lived through, i have a different threshold.
 

Spud

Monkey
Aug 9, 2001
550
0
Idaho (no really!)
Like $tinkle says we all have different thresholds – I had the privilege of doing some home health care for my uncle who was a POW. After Alzheimer’s ate his brain his only memories or reality was being a POW. He didn’t know his wife from a brutal camp guard. Many of the items from the Finding of Fact Section from that Army Report were similar to what his brain relived nightly for the last few years of his life. Accordingly, my threshold for tolerating this is damn close to zero.

That sh^t is unacceptable if it is perpetrated by Iraqi’s, Al Queda, US Troops or our allies. Any low life scum who participates in that should be held accountable. Find those who attacked J. Lynch as well. This isn’t a one way street
 

brenth

Monkey
Jun 14, 2002
221
0
Santa Monica
Originally posted by $tinkle
i'm pretty sure i've seen the greatest hits.
i actually thought the soldiers working the prison were softening up these prisoners.
How are these pictures softening the prisoners ? making them preform blowjobs on each other?


Remind me: why are they prisoners & not killed? Is it our twisted way of fighting a war that we don't kill, or are we just "hamstrung by this silly thing called the geneva convention"?
[/B]


These people are prisoners for various reasons I'm sure. but the fact that they might be bad people doesn't in anyway make up for the fact that these acts are wrong. As sshappy stated , the US should be coming from the moral high ground. If these sort of things happened in a prison in your town, are you saying you would be cool with it becasue they are bad people and that the guards were just having a little fun?

side note. What did the US do with all the people that were in prison under saddam? As far as determning who was a political prisioner and who wasn't?
 

sshappy

Chimp
Apr 20, 2004
97
0
Middle of Nowhere
Originally posted by $tinkle
by your logic, i was tortured all during 5th grade, where i was the only white boy in my class, & every monday was 'beat up whitey day', where i was more often than not left alone, but still carried the fear off a whoopin. Not just that 'gee it sucks to not be able to kick ass back', but the kind that makes you change your route to & from school & you carry that around. No different than most bullying, i'm sure.
So that makes it OK to abuse Iraqi prisoners?

Originally posted by $tinkle

Again, b/c of the stuff i've seen & lived through, i have a different threshold.
Puhleeze... And no one else here has lived?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by brenth
How are these pictures softening the prisoners ? making them preform blowjobs on each other?
where'd ya read that?!?!
Originally posted by brenth
As sshappy stated , the US should be coming from the moral high ground. If these sort of things happened in a prison in your town, are you saying you would be cool with it becasue they are bad people and that the guards were just having a little fun?
not equivocating abuse with torture is certainly not the same as "being ok w/ it"
Originally posted by brenth
side note. What did the US do with all the people that were in prison under saddam? As far as determning who was a political prisioner and who wasn't?
you mean these prisoners?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
just wanted to find out who these folks are who are representing america to the arab street & the rest of the world.

a dossier:
Specialist Charles A. Graner Jr. is a guard at one of Pennsylvania's most heavily secured death row prisons, accused by his former wife of violent behavior.

Pfc. Lynndie R. England was married and divorced before she was 21, worked at a chicken-processing plant in West Virginia and wanted to attend college to become a storm-chasing meteorologist.

And Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, another prison guard, planned to quit the Army Reserve this year to spend more time fishing near his rural home in central Virginia. But he did not get out soon enough. . . .

Specialist Graner, who wears a Marine Corps eagle tattoo on his right arm, served in the corps from April 1988 until May 1996, when he left with the rank of corporal, according to military records. He went to work immediately at the State Correctional Institution Greene, in southwestern Pennsylvania, where he has held an entry-level corrections officer position ever since.

Two years after he arrived at Greene, the prison was at the center of an abuse scandal. Prison officials declined to say whether Specialist Graner had been disciplined in that case, citing privacy laws.

Inmates and advocates for prisoner rights asserted in 1998 that guards at the prison routinely beat and humiliated prisoners, including through a sadistic game of Simon Says in which guards struck prisoners who failed to comply with barked instructions.

After an investigation, the warden was transferred, two lieutenants were fired and about two dozen guards were reprimanded, demoted or suspended.

Specialist Graner was involved in a bitter divorce. In court papers, his wife, Staci, accused him of beating her, threatening her with guns, stalking her after they separated in 1997 and breaking into her home. Since 1997, local judges have issued at least three orders of protection against him, records show.

NYT
now i'm less gobsmacked as to "why did this happen"?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by sshappy
equivocating? You sure?
i have yet to suffer from lack of a ready defence for my positions.

now, if you want to try ignoring kerry's admission of participation of free-fire zone & other [his words] atrocities, you are at risk of equivocating.
 

sshappy

Chimp
Apr 20, 2004
97
0
Middle of Nowhere
Originally posted by $tinkle
i have yet to suffer from lack of a ready defence for my positions.

now, if you want to try ignoring kerry's admission of participation of free-fire zone & other [his words] atrocities, you are at risk of equivocating.
I was querying the word, not your position. It just had that agreeance ring about it.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by sshappy
I was querying the word, not your position. It just had that agreeance ring about it.
haha, agreeance... you'll fit in well here :D Do say it to MMike every chance you get!
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Originally posted by $tinkle
"Tormenting Iraqis, in her mind, would be no different from shooting a turkey. Every season here you're hunting something. Over there, they're hunting Iraqis."


sorry, nice try.
Read just a tad bit further:

Down a dirt track at the edge of town, in the trailer where England grew up, her mother Terrie dismissed the allegations against her daughter as unfair.

"They were just doing stupid kid things, pranks. And what the Iraqis do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, do they apply to everybody or just us?" she asked.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
christopher hitchens nails it
One of two things must necessarily be true. Either these goons were acting on someone's authority, in which case there is a layer of mid- to high-level people who think that they are not bound by the laws and codes and standing orders. Or they were acting on their own authority, in which case they are the equivalent of mutineers, deserters, or traitors in the field. This is why one asks wistfully if there is no provision in the procedures of military justice for them to be taken out and shot.
see? it's not just possible, but reasonable to be a hawk & have this perspective.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
5,407
0
New England
You know what we have seen so far is only the tip of the iceberg. The Red Cross has said it has been complaining about this since the war started. Bremer says he new of this as early as January. Rumsfeld himself said he has far more incriminating pictures and videos of the abuse too.

So the Red Cross has been complaining of this for like the entire war, but Dubya has supposedly not heard a word of it. How can this joker be considered an effective leader? He is either lying to us again, or maybe he is just following Regans example of feigned ignorance, ala Iran/Contra...

Either way, I am voting for Ham Sandwich in '04!
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,394
22,473
Sleazattle
Originally posted by Tenchiro
How can this joker be considered an effective leader? He is either lying to us again, or maybe he is just following Regans example of feigned ignorance, ala Iran/Contra...

Either way, I am voting for Ham Sandwich in '04!
Many critics have tagged him as a Macro manager. Got the president job, hired a cabinet and told them to take care of everything while he kicks back and plays with GI Joe dolls in the Oval Office. I have full confidence in the fact he knew nothing about mistreating prisoners or much else.

I am only voting for Ham Sandwich if it's running mate is a side of 'tater salad.