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The Top Ten Things People Believe About Canadian Health Care, But Shouldn't

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
The Top Ten Things People Believe About Canadian Health Care, But Shouldn't
The Heritage Foundation | 9/10/04 | Brian Lee Crowley

Of the many ways that are available to tackle the question of what we all need to learn from Canada's 30-year love affair with the government monopoly, single-payer health care system that we in Canada call " Medicare," I think the model of that great health care analyst and public policy guru, David Letterman, serves our purposes best. I am therefore going to entitle my talk today, "The Top Ten Things People Believe About Canadian Health Care, But Shouldn't."

Number One: Canada Has the Best Health Care System in the World

Not even close. According to the World Health Organization, Canada ranks 30th in the world, with the U.S. ranking 38th.1 The ranking criteria were: bang for the buck, preventive measures, and access for vulnerable populations

Thus, while Canada and the U.S. are both only middling performers, we both have a great deal to learn from other places that manage to combine costs that are no higher than Canada's (and frequently are lower) and population health outcomes (e.g. longevity, infant mortality, etc.), that are as good or better.

Let me offer a comparison that will shake some of the complacent assumptions that many Americans seem to have about the equity and effectiveness of the Canadian health care system. Let's talk about infant mortality for African-American babies vs. Canadian babies. Infant mortality risk is a function of birth weight, with the risk of death rising as birth weight falls. Now, over the full range of low birth weights (i.e., any birth weight below 2500 grams), African-American babies fare better than Canadian babies, except at the very top end of the range, where they are essentially equal. In short, among low birth- weight babies, you are better to be born to an African-American family than you are to be born to the average Canadian family.

Number Two: The Canadian Public Loves Medicare


We have to be careful here. The public loves some features of the system. In particular, there is huge support for the principle that no one should be denied access to needed medical care on the basis of ability to pay. Ideologues in the health care system have tried to stretch the public's support for that basic principle in all kinds of distorted directions.

Read the rest...
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Well, not to be a pinko commie or anything, but I'll take 30th over 38th any day of the week when it comes to me or my family living or dying. Seems with all our money here in the US, we ought to be top notch.
 

MMike

A fowl peckerwood.
Sep 5, 2001
18,207
105
just sittin' here drinkin' scotch
You'd think eh? I'm curious what the difference is between 30 and 38...(besides "8")

We do have a lot of silly hoops to jumps through to get stuff done. And personally, I would rather have the option to buy better insurance. I have a job. I can afford it.

And with it being as under funded as it is, hospitals are definitely a little grungier than those I've seen in Seattle. I'm assuming if they have to decide between new tiles or an MRI machine, the MRI wins....I hope that's the case anyway....
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
I heard that in Canada that if you open a beer bottle and it has a mouse in it you can go down to the brewery and like get all the free beer you want!!!!
 

ncrider

Turbo Monkey
Aug 15, 2004
1,564
0
Los Angeles
Number seven is great. If you're the type running around saying "health care should be free for everyone, we should be like Canada." then please read this...


Number Seven: "Free" Health Care Empowers the Poor

Everything I want to say about this is summed up in a story that happened to my partner Shelley. Shelley and I are partners in a restaurant, and she actually runs it. She was given an appointment at the hospital for a procedure, and she duly showed up at the appointed time. Two hours later she was still sitting there waiting to be called. Now she was only able to get a two-hour parking meter, and so she approached the desk and asked if she could go and put money in the meter. She was curtly told that she was free to go and put the money in, but that if her name were called while she was away, that her name would fall back to the bottom of the queue. So she just decided that she would take the parking ticket as part of the price of getting the medical service she needed. Another two hours passed, and still she was not called, so she again approached the counter, and very patiently and politely explained (as only Shelley can, because she is the soul of graciousness) that she actually had a small business to run; that she was there at the appointed time for her appointment; that she had waited four hours, which is far longer than she had been led to expect the whole thing would take; that she had other commitments because of the business; and could they possibly at least give her some idea of how much longer she might have to wait?



Well, the woman behind the counter got on her dignity, drew herself up to her full height, glared at Shelley and said, "You're talking as if you're some kind of customer!"



There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the essence of the problem: When the government supplies you with "free" health care, you are not a powerful customer who must be satisfied. They are doing you a favor and you owe the state gratitude and servility in return for this awesome generosity. They can give you the worst service in the world, but because it is free, you are totally disempowered. One of the most important lessons I have learned from my contact with the Canadian Medicare system is that payment makes you powerful. And its absence makes you risible if not invisible.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,270
892
Lima, Peru, Peru
IMO health care should be like education or the police.

available to any citizen meeting certain basic requirements, but optional. like you can choose to buy a private insurance if so you wish, of course for a bit more.
for retirement we have 9% of your income for the public social security, or 11% for the private social security, plus some nominal fee for the maintenance. and in some cases you can jump from the private to the public if the private doesnt cover you.

since corrouption in the state social security was rampant, we stole the idea from milton friedman and the chicago boys and adopted a private and state-run social security here, health and retirement running in parallel.

its been working OK for both sides. the poor who cannot afford a doc, and people who want -like service.

social health does not imply necesarily bad service for everyone.
i have a cronic condition and i see a john hopkins M.D. every week here in Lima. its covered by my private health insurance.
and if i wanted to pay less, i could see any good doc from the social health care for much much less. of course it would take a while waiting in line, and the hospital might not be nicely decorated, but i´d still get the attention i need.

the elasticity for health care costs is very high in the middle and upper classes in every society. social health does not affect that much there. its biggest benefit is in the poor and very poor sectors in which health care is quite inenelastic.

just because there is a socialized health care does not mean all the good docs will flee the country or something like that. there are plenty of very good docs educated in columbia or harvard around here if you wish to get your teeth pulled out, and dont want to wait for an appointment or want to get it done at midnight by one of them and if you are willing to pay the price.

like everywhere there is a very elastic demand for any service.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
fluff said:
France!!!

Hahahahahahaha...

And the socialised medicine UK? 18th, on just 6% of GDP spent.

Could N8 be shooting himself in the foot?
Where did you get the figures from Fluff?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
valve bouncer said:
It does indeed seem N8 has owned himself.......USA #38, Cuba #39......bwahahahahahahahaha, at least you beat Cuba. :thumb:
The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds.

I think the message in that report is that socialized health care is even more effective than single payer...not sure N8 was trying to make that point, but maybe that's what happens when you can't read past the headline of the link you paste.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
ncrider said:
Maybe I glossed over this while reading the article, but did anybody notice what the ranking was based on?
Lots of different things. In defence of the US system it ranked no 1 as the most responsive.

So it must truly suck in other areas to end up 37th..
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
This was posted to show that while the US system ain't all that great in some people's opinion, it ain't the worst either. Most lib's like to hold up the Canadian style system as the gold-standard of health care and this shows that it isn't better than the US system really.

If we had a smaller population and a 55%+ tax rate like a lot of the countries in the top 10, the we'd probably be in the top 5 as well.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
You don't get it N8, so let me point it out again.

The US spends THE MOST, but ends up doing poorly. Not first, not even tenth. One slot better than CUBA. After spending more on health than Canada. Seems pretty simple. You're a contractor, right? You'd continue to buy lumber from the most expensive place in town with the crappiest product when there are other options?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
So why is it that we lead the work in medical research, treatment and advances?

Why is that that the best and brightest medical people from all over the world come to the US to practice?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
N8 said:
So why is it that we lead the work in medical research, treatment and advances?

Why is that that the best and brightest medical people from all over the world come to the US to practice?
More money?

That apparently doesn't translate into the care though. To go back to my hardware store example, it doesn't matter if Michelangelo works in the paint department if to make up for crappy management the store charges you twice as much for paint.
 

mr.terrible

Chimp
Aug 24, 2004
40
0
Finland
N8 said:
So why is it that we lead the work in medical research, treatment and advances?

Why is that that the best and brightest medical people from all over the world come to the US to practice?
A bit arrogant, don't you think? US isn't leading medical research etc. in all branches... Not that this has anything to do with the efectiveness of the healthcare system.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,270
892
Lima, Peru, Peru
N8 said:
This was posted to show that while the US system ain't all that great in some people's opinion, it ain't the worst either. Most lib's like to hold up the Canadian style system as the gold-standard of health care and this shows that it isn't better than the US system really.

If we had a smaller population and a 55%+ tax rate like a lot of the countries in the top 10, the we'd probably be in the top 5 as well.

having the most profitable health system, does not equate to having the best health care system.

in cases like education, health care and secutiry like police, is much better for society to take an socialistic approach and stop them for being for profit.

imagine if education was private and for profit. it wouldl lower your taxes, but the un-educated would be a huge burden on everyone. or police? if neighbohoods and people had they own private police, like a feudalism and they were fighting all the time.....

some elementary monopoly-prone things are better off the table of the market rules.... (ultra slippery slope statement, i know). and for me education, police and health care should be them.
 

jaydee

Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
794
0
Victoria BC
N8 said:
So why is it that we lead the work in medical research, treatment and advances?

Why is that that the best and brightest medical people from all over the world come to the US to practice?
Because you pay your doctors stupid amounts of money.
We pay them too much up here in Canada too, but they still hold us for ransom by threatening to go to the US if anybody even mentions salary control to them.

And that article was dead on. Our health system is sick and not expected to survive without radical cutting.
 

slein

Monkey
Jul 21, 2002
331
0
CANADA
CANADA: lots of land.... a little bit of people and a little bit of money.

money is the only way to solve health care. people are getting sicker anyway, so any "good" system will become strained.

that's why i ride a bike.... and doctors drive fancy cars
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
-1
a state called denial
If you believe this site, we went up one notch!! 37!!
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
I'm sorry but they have France as #1.
My uncle is a Doctor there and says that depending who is working, if someone comes into the ER needing an operation he will send them to another hospital. Has something to do with the fact that you can't be fired for doing a piss poor job.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
I'm sorry but they have France as #1.
My uncle is a Doctor there and says that depending who is working, if someone comes into the ER needing an operation he will send them to another hospital. Has something to do with the fact that you can't be fired for doing a piss poor job.
No doubt we can find anecdotal evidence from any nation as to the failings of its healthcare system. The fact remains that this thread makes me laugh.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
No doubt we can find anecdotal evidence from any nation as to the failings of its healthcare system. The fact remains that this thread makes me laugh.
Here's a neat one:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/11/17/2007-11-17_23_cops_who_saw_dirty_needle_doctor_told.html

A little more googling and you can find out what his punishment was...and if you google "doctor long island dirty needles" you'll notice there is an anti-Semitic angle on the third link. America in microcosm...
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
I'm sorry but they have France as #1.
My uncle is a Doctor there and says that depending who is working, if someone comes into the ER needing an operation he will send them to another hospital. Has something to do with the fact that you can't be fired for doing a piss poor job.
You're really going to use that as an example of a bad system? You realize they do that all the time in the US, right? ERs on a regular basis will refuse patients, or transfer them. There was a great series of articles on newsweek.com about ER issues.....I'll see if I can find them
 

MMike

A fowl peckerwood.
Sep 5, 2001
18,207
105
just sittin' here drinkin' scotch
From the macro perspective, the Canadian system is better. But from a purely selfish perspective, (having decent insurance), I prefer the US system by a long shot.

I think I'm one of the few people here who have had the opportunity to actually test drive both systems....
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
-1
a state called denial
You're really going to use that as an example of a bad system? You realize they do that all the time in the US, right? ERs on a regular basis will refuse patients, or transfer them. There was a great series of articles on newsweek.com about ER issues.....I'll see if I can find them
Does the US refuse or transfer the patients because of a lack of skill on the Doctors part?
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
-1
a state called denial
Isn't it possible that your uncle is a jerk who thinks he's better than everyone else and that a frenchy doctor couldn't POSSIBLY know what he was doing?
Don't get me wrong I'm not a big fan of the French, but he is french and so is half my family. He is the one sending patients away depending on what Doctors are on call for the night, it has nothing to do with his skill, and everything to do with the skill of the Doctors on call.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,494
22,580
Sleazattle
Are Canadian nurses hot? Most American nurses are fat cows. If the Canadian ones are hot they clearly have a better system.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Don't know why I thought of this....


Jack Byrnes: Greg's a male nurse.
Greg Focker: Yes. Thank you, Jack.
Kevin: Wow, that's great. I'd love to find time to do some volunteer work. Just the other day I saw a golden retriever, he had like a gimp, ya know I just wish I could have done something.
Greg Focker: Yeah, well I get paid too so it's sort of a everyone wins thing.