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The Turth of Who's Responsible for the Iraqi Prison Abuse Starts to Come Out

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Excerpt from below:
Sivits told investigators that the abuse would not have happened had higher-ranking members been present. "Our command would have slammed us," he said. "They believe in doing the right thing. If they saw what was going on, there would be hell to pay."
Uhhh... why should Rumsfeld resign again, I mean other than to appease the liberals who have a blind haterd of Bush..???


MP in abuse scandal offers to plead guilty
Sivits offers detailed account of prisoner mistreatment
Washingtonpost.com | 14 May 04 | Christian Davenport

Updated: 12:03 a.m. ET May 14, 2004

One of the military police officers charged in the abuse scandal at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison has offered to plead guilty and has provided military investigators with a detailed account of how guards humiliated and beat detainees, in one case hitting a prisoner so hard he became unconscious.

Spec. Jeremy C. Sivits, one of the seven members of the 372nd Military Police Company facing charges in the case, told investigators in a sworn statement that other prison guards forced detainees to strip, masturbate and pile on top of one another. Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II forced two detainees to punch each other, Sivits told investigators, according to a transcript.

In another instance, he said, Spec. Charles A. Graner Jr. put a sandbag over a detainee's head and "punched the detainee with a closed fist so hard in the temple that the detainee was knocked unconscious."

"I walked over to see if the detainee was still alive," Sivits said, according to the transcript. He lay there motionless with his eyes closed for about two minutes, Sivits said, before he moved "for the first time, like he was coming to."

Transcripts of two statements Sivits made in January were provided by Harvey Volzer, a lawyer representing Spec. Megan M. Ambuhl, another soldier charged in the case. Sivits's father has said that the family cannot afford a civilian lawyer, and the identity of Sivits's military attorney could not be learned last night.

Sivits, 24, of Hyndman, Pa., admitted in the statement that he photographed the abuse but never reported it. His offer to plead guilty in the case has been accepted by the staff judge advocate overseeing his court-martial, according to a memo reviewed by The Washington Post and lawyers representing some of the other charged soldiers. It could not be determined which charge he has pleaded guilty to.

Agrees to testify
Sivits has been ordered to face a special court-martial, a proceeding similar to a misdemeanor trial in which defendants face a maximum prison sentence of one year. That, combined with the plea, indicates that he has agreed to testify against other soldiers in the case, Volzer and legal experts have said.

On Wednesday, military authorities announced that Frederick and Sgt. Javal S. Davis, 26, of Nottingham, Md., would face general courts-martial, proceedings that can result in much more severe sentences. They will be arraigned next Thursday, the Associated Press reported yesterday. Sivits's trial is set for Wednesday.

In his statement, Sivits implicated five of six other soldiers charged in the case. Lawyers representing the soldiers or their families have denied anything illegal was done.

Most of Sivits's statement concerns the night of last Oct. 3. Frederick had asked him to come to holding cells in the Abu Ghraib prison where some new detainees had just arrived.

Sivits said that after he and Frederick got there, some detainees were put in a pile on the floor. Sivits said Davis ran into the room and "lunged into the air and landed in the middle of where the detainees were."

Davis, 26, then stomped "on either the fingers or toes of the detainees," he said, causing them to "scream loudly." Sivits said Frederick later hit a detainee in the chest "for no reason."

"The detainee took a deep breath and kind of squatted down," Sivits said. "The detainee said he could not [breathe]. They called for a medic to come down to try to get the detainee to [breathe] right."

Bill Lawson, Frederick's uncle, said Frederick "shoved" one prisoner who was trying to "start some kind of a scuffle." Frederick has maintained that "he has never lifted a finger against any prisoner in Iraq," Lawson said.

'Ah, does that hurt?'
At another point, he said, a detainee with gunshot wounds to his leg was handcuffed to a bed. Graner then apparently picked up an object and struck the man's wounds "with a half baseball swing," Sivits said. The detainee begged Graner to stop, saying, " 'Mister, Mister please stop,' or words to that effect."

Sivits said Graner responded by saying, "in a baby-type voice, 'Ah, does that hurt?' "

Sivits said he thought Graner hit the captive because "he was still angry because this detainee had tried to kill one of our soldiers."

Paul Bergrin, a Newark lawyer who is representing Davis, said Sivits's statement was "fabricated" and "self-serving."

"This is in order to cover up for his own misdeeds and mischievous behavior," he said.

Guy Womack, an attorney for Graner, said Sivits's statement " is of dubious value because he's trading information to try to help himself."

He also said he is not convinced that the person identified in Sivits's statement is his client. Throughout the statement, Graner's name is spelled "Grainer" and his rank is given as corporal, not specialist.

Sivits said he saw two other soldiers, Specs. Lynndie R. England and Sabrina D. Harman, posing for photos with naked detainees.

Sivits told investigators that the abuse would not have happened had higher-ranking members been present. "Our command would have slammed us," he said. "They believe in doing the right thing. If they saw what was going on, there would be hell to pay."

That statement echoes testimony given by one of the initial investigators on the case. During Ambuhl's Article 32 hearing, a session similar to a grand jury proceeding, Tyler Pieron, an Army criminal investigator, said the abuses occurred "after the chain of command had changed shifts and gone home."

Both Sivits and Pieron said that a sergeant first class at one point witnessed an incident and ordered the soldiers to stop. Pieron said he thought the sergeant saw Davis stepping on a detainee.

"They were surprised at how angry he was when he told them to stop," Pieron said.

Sivits said he did not report the abuse to his commanders because Graner told him not to, "and I try to be friends with everyone. I see now where trying to be friends with everyone can cost you."
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
pretty much, thats how i figured it'd gone down. Im sure no officer would let something like that slide. Its sick, but you know some people are just sick and sometimes you dont know who they are until it comes out in a situation like this. I hope they all go to jail for a long time.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
5,407
0
New England
Originally posted by N8
Uhhh... why should Rumsfeld resign again,
Because he is a cock.

How about because the International Red Cross was sending complaints about this sort of abuse since the war began, and he apparantly hasn't heard a word of it until now. From which we can draw two conclusions. A) He is incompetent and/or B) He new about it all along and did nothing.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
And they are now investigating abuse in Afghanistan... Nope, no way that this could be a systematic, no way anyone other than a bunch of privates and a couple captains knew about it.

Plus - they now have images of interrogators standing next to the guards... proving that someone other than a "few rouge' soldiers were involved.

Oh yeah, and to answer your question - Rummy should resign because evidence of this started to surface in Nov. of '03 - and he did not prevent it from becoming a national embarrassment.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by Slugman
Oh yeah, and to answer your question - Rummy should resign because evidence of this started to surface in Nov. of '03 - and he did not prevent it from becoming a national embarrassment.
daily nat'l embarrassments by:
- ted kennedy
- bill nelson
- barbra boxer
- chuck hagel
- jim mcdermott
- bob byrd
- dianne fienstein
- nancy pelosi
- carl levin

so any time a portion of our country is embarrassed by someone they can blame, that person should step down? I think i know how the enemy can defeat us. I also think they've know this for a while.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by $tinkle
daily nat'l embarrassments by:
- ted kennedy
- bill nelson
- barbra boxer
- chuck hagel
- jim mcdermott
- bob byrd
- dianne fienstein
- nancy pelosi
- carl levin

so any time a portion of our country is embarrassed by someone they can blame, that person should step down? I think i know how the enemy can defeat us. I also think they've know this for a while.
well, I think Slugman meant that IF Rummy and/or Bush KNEW what was going on and did nothing, that they need to be punished or atleast resign.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
Originally posted by $tinkle
so any time a portion of our country is embarrassed by someone they can blame, that person should step down? I think i know how the enemy can defeat us. I also think they've know this for a while.
This is not only a war about land... it's a war of ideas and perceptions. When we are trying to defeat terrorist/dictators we need to win a war of ideas as much as we need to win a ground war. For the administration responsible for the invasion to allow us to lose the war of ideas, yeah -They need to be held responsible and get the F' out!

So what that a bunch of Iraqi’s who were trying to kill Americans were stripped? - Well it's huge if you are an Iraqi and the Americans claim to be there to stop an evil dictator. We said we did this to remove Saddam b/c of how he treated people, yet we find ourselves on the front page of the world’s media doing the same things...

Rummy is supposed to help stop the terrorist, not help them with recruiting!
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by LordOpie
well, I think Slugman meant that IF Rummy and/or Bush KNEW what was going on and did nothing, that they need to be punished or atleast resign.
<troll>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ok, howsa 'bout re-enstating that list, but for giving aid & comfort to the enemy?
</troll>
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by $tinkle
<troll>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ok, howsa 'bout re-enstating that list, but for giving aid & comfort to the enemy?
</troll>
I'm not sure what you're refering to, but I'm not partisan... mistakes are one thing, but anyone who knowingly fvcks up needs to pay an appropriate penalty.

IF Rummy knew and did nothing, that's intolerable.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by LordOpie
I'm not sure what you're refering to, but I'm not partisan... mistakes are one thing, but anyone who knowingly fvcks up needs to pay an appropriate penalty.

IF Rummy knew and did nothing, that's intolerable.
so now you know why i don't tolerate blind tolerance - it can be a mortal decision. I've been trolling, but be sure that if he knew something afoul was going on, then let me make the ill-timed charge that "heads must roll".

but don't wait for it.
 

Spud

Monkey
Aug 9, 2001
550
0
Idaho (no really!)
Ahh, the truth from one of the guys charged with abuse. I’m sure his version is unvarnished and his motives pure.

Guess we can ignore the official report from the US Army citing the lack of training and breakdown of command structure or MG Taguba’s testimony before congress on his findings. Probably Donald Rumsfeld’s admission to the breakdown in command structure is just the good Secretary reading too much Newsweek.

It will take a while for all this to play out. There will be plenty of blame to share.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
Originally posted by $tinkle
daily nat'l embarrassments by:
- ted kennedy/B]

No argument on that one! I wish someone had gotten rid of that sack of Sh!t years ago... too bad MA still thinks they are voting for one of his brothers.

Originally posted by $tinkle
so any time a portion of our country is embarrassed by someone they can blame, that person should step down?
uh... I was talking about the secrtary of defense. A major figure who is supposed to represent America and is responsible for the defense of our nation. Yeah, if he can't do his job correctly he needs to get the F' out!

and by the way, yes when peole F' up they need to be held responsible:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/14/iraq.abuse.uk/index.html

Fake abuse photos: Editor quits
Friday, May 14, 2004 Posted: 4:14 PM EDT (2014 GMT)
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
After watching yesterday's Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on the abuse of Iraqi detainees, a Washington wag E-mailed me a partial transcript and remarked:

"This is the most frightening thing from the prison abuse scandal ... 'SEN KENNEDY: I was - just quickly, Gen. Sanchez, as an old MP myself...'"

That's right. Back in the early 1950s, Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts was an active-duty Army military policeman stationed in France and Germany.

-NYDaily News