[fluff]

Article from the Beeb; interesting to compare the new Toyota factory with the old GM plant in Flint. I get the impression that people here blame the unions for the decline of the industry, that doesn't seem to come out of this article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6346299.stm

 

[BurlyShirley]

Good read, but doesnt do anything to let the unions off the hook. Like anything else, people went from heavy, expensive american made stuff to cheaper overseas produced stuff and the US economy suffered for it. We see this in just about every industry.
I always say it, but unions in places like Kentucky (Where toyota is) and Tennessee (Where nissan is) the unions arent at all powerful and workers, though fairly compensated, dont have anything like the deals the detroit auto workers had.

 

[Westy]

US auto industry has more problems than just unions. I'm an idiot and actually wanted to buy a US car last time I was looking. I didn't want a truck or SUV so there wasn't even one model interesting enough to even consider.

 

[MMike]

US cars = poop

 

[rockwool]

Article from the Beeb; interesting to compare the new Toyota factory with the old GM plant in Flint. I get the impression that people here blame the unions for the decline of the industry, that doesn't seem to come out of this article.

The woman living in Flint said something towards that:

They were loyal members of the autoworkers union, the UAW, which won increasing benefits for its members, with average wages of more than $50,000 plus overtime.

"We respected the union then," she said. "We believed it was the union that had delivered us the American dream."

In the 1950s the Detroit area had the highest median income, and highest rate of home ownership, of any major US city. But times are very different now.

I can't see why she blames the unions for asking for more money to the workers and not at the same time blaming the salaries of the suits. They got their raises simultainiously, didn't they?

Was the actual blue collar wage +$50,000 or was it an average of the whole staff, back in the 60's-70's? Blue collar wages in Sweden is about 1/2 - 2/3 of that today!

There's a lot of union bashing in both our countries. Over here I find it mainly comming from the higher ranks. I do quite a lot of union bashing my self, but that's because the major ones have sold out to das kapital, not because I want to split the united voice of the workers. Look at the other side of the negotiating table, they are united in their equivalent of unions and nobody, media owner or not, bashes them for their unity.


I think the article gave a better explanation to the decline of Detroit:

"If a seatbelt isn't right, I stop the line until it is fixed - that is an important issue as it could affect people's safety."

Toyota encourages workers to take personal responsibility for defects, and to work together to fix them.

That attitude has given them a well-deserved reputation for quality and reliability - and the Camry has been the best-selling car in America for the last ten years.

The poor quality of US cars was an obvious reason to lost market (damn those 60-70-80's cars were rattling...), but most blame to that lays in poor enginering. I have no idea if the assembly line lacked motivation to screw the cars together properly though.

their failure to adapt their production methods and meet changing consumer tastes has accelerated their decline. /..../ But the near-monopoly conditions in the American market bred complacency - and the assumption that the American lead in technology and marketing was unassailable.

According to Stephen D'Arcy, head of Global Automotive Practice at PriceWaterhouse Coopers, in the long run "the US monopoly was an unsustainable anomoly."

In the 1950s and 1960s, US firms failed to innovate in the design of cars, preferring to make money by increasing the size and weight of their vehicles by adding extras like air conditioning, power steering, and fancy sound systems.

It was left to European manufacturers to develop disc brakes, rack-and-pinion steering, air-cooled and diesel engines.

And the mass production system discouraged innovation because it was so expensive to introduce fundamentally new models.

Meanwhile, Toyota was also making a virtue of adversity, changing its production system to become leaner and more efficient than its rivals.

Oil crisis

Those are too many and too big factors that played against the US automotive industry and the outcome was inevitable.
Ever heard the ones blaming overpaid union members mentioning this or the overpaid bosses?

though fairly compensated

Fair according to whom? The rich are getting richer, why cant the lower classes get some more on the table?

 

[rockwool]

I gotta commend Detroit on finaly making it design wise though! With few exceptions every decade since the 70's US cars have looked like sheit, specially their interiors. Looks like the US (and the Japanese) have found a style of their own now.

 

[dhbuilder]

Good read, but doesnt do anything to let the unions off the hook. Like anything else, people went from heavy, expensive american made stuff to cheaper overseas produced stuff and the US economy suffered for it. We see this in just about every industry.
I always say it, but unions in places like Kentucky (Where toyota is) and Tennessee (Where nissan is) the unions arent at all powerful and workers, though fairly compensated, dont have anything like the deals the detroit auto workers had.

i have a cousin and a close friend who both work for toyota in kentucky.

the both went in at levels that paid very well.
therefore they built their lifestyle around that wage.
bought house, cars etc...
everything the average american does to enjoy a nice standard of living.

then a few years in.
the company announces a "restructure"
in both cases they lost bonuses and some salary and benefits.
now both are trapped, living a little beyond their means.
in a part of the country that has little other options for a similar wage.

i hear that's also a ploy at daimler chrysler.

i'm very very anti union.
but it also sucks how some large companies play games to keep you in a form of indentured servitude.

it harkens back to the 1800's when coal co's around the country paid the hired help in chits.
redeemable only at the company stores.
then when the coal played out they moved on leaving generations impovershed.

 

[dhbuilder]

I gotta commend Detroit on finaly making it design wise though! With few exceptions every decade since the 70's US cars have looked like sheit, specially their interiors. Looks like the US (and the Japanese) have found a style of their own now.

when i look at a lexus.
all i see it a japanese version of a mercedes benz or audi.

 

[dhbuilder]

other than trucks and a few vette models.
and maybe the viper and certain mustangs.

detroit has not made a real car since 1970.

 

[ohio]

I can't see why she blames the unions for asking for more money to the workers and not at the same time blaming the salaries of the suits. They got their raises simultainiously, didn't they?

Leverage. Even if you overpay the suits, it pales in comparison to the payroll for union members.

Was the actual blue collar wage +$50,000 or was it an average of the whole staff, back in the 60's-70's? Blue collar wages in Sweden is about 1/2 - 2/3 of that today!

Average for union members. It was pretty clear.

The poor quality of US cars was an obvious reason to lost market (damn those 60-70-80's cars were rattling...), but most blame to that lays in poor enginering. I have no idea if the assembly line lacked motivation to screw the cars together properly though.

First, the engineering is actually quite good, it's the design and the manufacturing that are an issue. Second, the poor quality is an outcome not a cause. The issues are organizational and cultural and the unions are just as much a prt of that as management. They are equally to blame. The touchy-feely BS is only part of it... the decision making processes were so hamstrung and overly filtered by bureacracy, it was impossible for anyone to make any kind of significant changes in a well-informed manner.

Those are too many and too big factors that played against the US automotive industry and the outcome was inevitable.

While I agree, you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

 

[ohio]

detroit has not made a real car since 1970.

real car = penis with wheels?

 

[fluff]

i'm very very anti union.

Why is that?

 

[MMike]

Because of the jews

 

[fluff]

Because of the jews

 

[MMike]

So there

 

[fluff]

So there

Umm, I get two stars to your one and that's payback? You're weird.

 

[golgiaparatus]

sucks how some large companies play games to keep you in a form of indentured servitude.

This isnt related to cars but it is to that comment. There is an ad agency in Oklahoma City/Dallas/LA. One of the largest in the country. They pay ther designers better than any other agency and they hire you on and give you a pretty normal workload at 20k more than the competition. Then after about 6 months, after you've already bought your Lexus and your new house, they give you so much work that you are turning over 70 + hour work weeks.

At that point all you can do is bust your ass and watch your personal life go down the tube for a while because you cant afford to go somewhere else and take a 20k pay cut.

 

[fluff]

This isnt related to cars but it is to that comment. There is an ad agency in Oklahoma City/Dallas/LA. One of the largest in the country. They pay ther designers better than any other agency and they hire you on and give you a pretty normal workload at 20k more than the competition. Then after about 6 months, after you've already bought your Lexus and your new house, they give you so much work that you are turning over 70 + hour work weeks.

At that point all you can do is bust your ass and watch your personal life go down the tube for a while because you cant afford to go somewhere else and take a 20k pay cut.

I have little sympathy for anyone in that position. They've made a choice, do they really expect to get 20k more than anywhere else without a reason? Sell the Lexus and quit chasing money is the answer.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Ford in the crapper, GM at junk bond status, Mercedes looking to get rid of Chrysler...

Toyota in NASCAR.... its the end of the world as we know it.

 

[MMike]

Umm, I get two stars to your one and that's payback? You're weird.

It's a PRODUCT, not a sum! It's one fifith of one fifth!

 

[$tinkle]

Umm, I get two stars to your one and that's payback? You're weird.

it took me 2 reads, but i got his point. maybe you should humble yourself & give it due diligence.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

It's a PRODUCT, not a sum! It's one fifith of one fifth!

And they let you around spinnin' blades and such?

"Ooooo...Shiny!!"

 

[MMike]

They do make me wear a helmet

 

[dhbuilder]

Why is that?

i worked in the construction trade as a carpenter in downtown houston in the late 70's and early 80's.
working on the high rises as they were being built.

all of the general contactors were union co's.
but as a non-union craftsman, i could work there as a "permit hand".
i'd make the same $$$ as union journeymen but i didn't have to join the union or pay dues.

soon it became very apparent that all the union carpenters(and other trades as well) stood around all day and did absolutely nothing while the permit hands did all the work.

that bothered quite a few workers to no end.
but not myself.
i figured the more they didn't do, the longer and farther behind the job fell behind.
therefore creating a much longer time of employment for me.

but at least once a day the steward would come around and try to coerce you into joining the union.
when it became obvious who would and who wouldn't sign up.
they would target those who chose not to.
your work would be sabotaged.
some found their car tires mysteriously flat at the end of the workday.
lunches were swiped.
all kinds of games were played.

the general overall attitude was that once you were unionized, you didn't have to work much at all.
just sit around and milk the job for all it was worth.

and if you did cave in and join.
once the job was over, you were then low man on the totem pole when it came time to go down and sign the books to get sent out on other jobs.

the old cronies were the first to go and get set up on new jobs.
and instead of calling the hall for the newer members to join the workforce, they'd hire permit hands instead.
hoping that the majority of them would get suckered into joining the union.
and therefore paying due$.

unions are all about getting dues paying members on board.
they could care less about the health of the company the leech onto.

i for one am very fortunate to have a craft that i can use to be fully self employed.
i set my hours.
i set my labor rate.
i deal directly with the homeowner.
and i can take the time needed to ply my trade with pride without the union holding my hand.

and let's not even get on the subject of strikes.

 

[fluff]

it took me 2 reads, but i got his point. maybe you should humble yourself & give it due diligence.

This is MMike we're talking about here...

 

[SkaredShtles]

I have little sympathy for anyone in that position. They've made a choice, do they really expect to get 20k more than anywhere else without a reason? Sell the Lexus and quit chasing money is the answer.

Stupid people are... well, stupid.

 

[MMike]

This is MMike we're talking about here...

Face it. I out-mathed you

 

[fluff]

Face it. I out-mathed you

I guess you did; I'm still trying to work out what a fifith is.

 

[rockwool]

other than trucks and a few vette models.
and maybe the viper and certain mustangs.

detroit has not made a real car since 1970.

Sure it has; 1972 Chevelle 454SS (bodywise, not the engine), todays Chrysler 300, todays Cadillacs, and aynthing pink with 13" spoke wheels and cat interior from any era!

 

[rockwool]

when i look at a lexus.
all i see it a japanese version of a mercedes benz or audi.

Lexus yes, but look att todays Toyota Avensis and Nissan Maximas (i think it's Maxima..), they have finaly designs of their own. Mitsubishi Galant has had its own design from 88ish.
Honda is still lost, Subaru not there yet.

Sure they still copy cat some, but that is left to their luxury brands like Infiniti. The regular brands have started to surprise me.

Ohh, love the new Mitsubishi pickup truck!

 

[reflux]

and let's not even get on the subject of strikes.

Interesting read, thanks for the insight. I have to admit though, now you have me curious about your experiences with strikes.

 

[rockwool]

Leverage. Even if you overpay the suits, it pales in comparison to the payroll for union members.


Average for union members. It was pretty clear.



First, the engineering is actually quite good, it's the design and the manufacturing that are an issue. Second, the poor quality is an outcome not a cause. The issues are organizational and cultural and the unions are just as much a prt of that as management. They are equally to blame. The touchy-feely BS is only part of it... the decision making processes were so hamstrung and overly filtered by bureacracy, it was impossible for anyone to make any kind of significant changes in a well-informed manner.



While I agree, you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

You're right, I don't know much about this topic in your country. I just think it too much union bashing over here and see some similaritys with the US, but I have never heard a Swede complain about the finished Swedish product. I compare to how the unions are over here (think it's the highest member % in the world) and what quality the stuff has that we put out. Much like the Germans, Swedes like to buy their own stuff because they think it's of good quality. Greeks on the other hand don't trust their countrymen when it comes to assembling stuff propperly. They'd rather buy the exact same refrigerator that's been assembled in germany for a higher price..

Engineering/design/manufacturing, sorry bad English. Looked it up and I probably meant manufacturing and the design of details that start to rattle after a while. If I understood it correctly engineering is the work that is done at the assembly line.

Average union member could also include the white collar workers. Big differance!

I don't find it OK that some earn fortunes every month while some, like custodians, have a hard time getting by the latter half of the month.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I lived for 20 years about 30 minutes from Flint... and I can tell you if you heard the stories I've heard about the interior workings of a UAW plant in MI.... you'd steer *WAY* clear of anything made in that plant.

Maybe things have changed in the last 15 years... but I doubt it.

 

[Westy]

I lived for 20 years about 30 minutes from Flint... and I can tell you if you heard the stories I've heard about the interior workings of a UAW plant in MI.... you'd steer *WAY* clear of anything made in that plant.

Maybe things have changed in the last 15 years... but I doubt it.

Are you talking about the hookers, drug traffic or stolen parts?

 

[rockwool]

i worked in the construction trade as a carpenter in downtown houston in the late 70's and early 80's.
working on the high rises as they were being built.

all of the general contactors were union co's.
but as a non-union craftsman, i could work there as a "permit hand".
i'd make the same $$$ as union journeymen but i didn't have to join the union or pay dues.

soon it became very apparent that all the union carpenters(and other trades as well) stood around all day and did absolutely nothing while the permit hands did all the work.

that bothered quite a few workers to no end.
but not myself.
i figured the more they didn't do, the longer and farther behind the job fell behind.
therefore creating a much longer time of employment for me.

but at least once a day the steward would come around and try to coerce you into joining the union.
when it became obvious who would and who wouldn't sign up.
they would target those who chose not to.
your work would be sabotaged.
some found their car tires mysteriously flat at the end of the workday.
lunches were swiped.
all kinds of games were played.

the general overall attitude was that once you were unionized, you didn't have to work much at all.
just sit around and milk the job for all it was worth.

and if you did cave in and join.
once the job was over, you were then low man on the totem pole when it came time to go down and sign the books to get sent out on other jobs.

the old cronies were the first to go and get set up on new jobs.
and instead of calling the hall for the newer members to join the workforce, they'd hire permit hands instead.
hoping that the majority of them would get suckered into joining the union.
and therefore paying due$.

unions are all about getting dues paying members on board.
they could care less about the health of the company the leech onto.

i for one am very fortunate to have a craft that i can use to be fully self employed.
i set my hours.
i set my labor rate.
i deal directly with the homeowner.
and i can take the time needed to ply my trade with pride without the union holding my hand.

and let's not even get on the subject of strikes.

Wow! Never heard anything like this. I understand your antipathy then, they were blue collar mafia ffs. Luckily union members are not at all like that here. The major union officials though are questionable guys, and their bosses are beyond question. Over here the major unions have sold out the working class looong time ago. Today they are all about rethorics, beneficial loans and insurances. They've become part of the established elite and therefore benefit from missleading the masses.

That's why I changed to a syndicalistic union. When they say they take the fight, they take the fight!

 

[rockwool]

Are you talking about the hookers, drug traffic or stolen parts?

Naaah, that's all good if the brass gets their cut.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Are you talking about the hookers, drug traffic or stolen parts?

And more....

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip> they were blue collar mafia ffs.

Ummm yeah. Historically that is *exactly* what unions here have been.

 

[dhbuilder]

Wow! Never heard anything like this. I understand your antipathy then, they were blue collar mafia ffs. Luckily union members are not at all like that here. The major union officials though are questionable guys, and their bosses are beyond question. Over here the major unions have sold out the working class looong time ago. Today they are all about rethorics, beneficial loans and insurances. They've become part of the established elite and therefore benefit from missleading the masses.

That's why I changed to a syndicalistic union. When they say they take the fight, they take the fight!

at the time houston was booming like crazy.
the petro-chemical industry was growing like there was no tommorrow.

and unions were trying like hell to get a foothold in a huge right to work state.

 

[fluff]

Well what you detail below is a complete misuse of union power and it's hardly surprising you feel the way you do.

On the other had you must contrast such a situation with its polar opposite. A situation where unemployment and poverty are rife and an unscrupulous employer can exploit the labour pool for subsistence wages, where workers can lose their job for no reason whatsoever. Conditions that have existed in history throughout the developed world and still exist today in the third world. Unions are the reason that we don't work under such conditions today.

i worked in the construction trade as a carpenter in downtown houston in the late 70's and early 80's.
working on the high rises as they were being built.

all of the general contactors were union co's.
but as a non-union craftsman, i could work there as a "permit hand".
i'd make the same $$$ as union journeymen but i didn't have to join the union or pay dues.

soon it became very apparent that all the union carpenters(and other trades as well) stood around all day and did absolutely nothing while the permit hands did all the work.

that bothered quite a few workers to no end.
but not myself.
i figured the more they didn't do, the longer and farther behind the job fell behind.
therefore creating a much longer time of employment for me.

but at least once a day the steward would come around and try to coerce you into joining the union.
when it became obvious who would and who wouldn't sign up.
they would target those who chose not to.
your work would be sabotaged.
some found their car tires mysteriously flat at the end of the workday.
lunches were swiped.
all kinds of games were played.

the general overall attitude was that once you were unionized, you didn't have to work much at all.
just sit around and milk the job for all it was worth.

and if you did cave in and join.
once the job was over, you were then low man on the totem pole when it came time to go down and sign the books to get sent out on other jobs.

the old cronies were the first to go and get set up on new jobs.
and instead of calling the hall for the newer members to join the workforce, they'd hire permit hands instead.
hoping that the majority of them would get suckered into joining the union.
and therefore paying due$.

unions are all about getting dues paying members on board.
they could care less about the health of the company the leech onto.

i for one am very fortunate to have a craft that i can use to be fully self employed.
i set my hours.
i set my labor rate.
i deal directly with the homeowner.
and i can take the time needed to ply my trade with pride without the union holding my hand.

and let's not even get on the subject of strikes.