[rockwool]

Well what you detail below is a complete misuse of union power and it's hardly surprising you feel the way you do.

On the other had you must contrast such a situation with its polar opposite. A situation where unemployment and poverty are rife and an unscrupulous employer can exploit the labour pool for subsistence wages, where workers can lose their job for no reason whatsoever. Conditions that have existed in history throughout the developed world and still exist today in the third world. Unions are the reason that we don't work under such conditions today.

That is very true! It is the misuse of power that is the wrong thing, not the unification against a part that is soo much stronger than the individual and that we are so dependant of. There aren't that long ago that we had slavery under feudal societys in Europe. Generally they ended at the end of the 18th century, in Germany in 1806 and in Russia slavery wasn't abolished until 1861!!!

It was the unification of the workers in the 19th and in the beginning of the 20th century that gave us most of the rights we enjoy today. Now we take them for granted, but nothing was given for free or out of good will from the masters. Today unions are established parts with a lot of power. Power that has curupted the union leaders as it has with every body else it affiliates with.

Power is the bad guy here, we need to brake down the power structures and spead it out on every individual, make it more direct, democratisize the representative democracies we live under.



EDIT: Slavery was the wrong word here. Serfdom was the one I meant.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Well what you detail below is a complete misuse of union power and it's hardly surprising you feel the way you do.

On the other had you must contrast such a situation with its polar opposite. A situation where unemployment and poverty are rife and an unscrupulous employer can exploit the labour pool for subsistence wages, where workers can lose their job for no reason whatsoever. Conditions that have existed in history throughout the developed world and still exist today in the third world. Unions are the reason that we don't work under such conditions today.

Right. However, when the unions were formed (Era of Carnegie and Rockafeller, etc.) there was no oversight. Now the need is much less. I suppose I should clarify that...The need for such power via the union is much less. (i.e. gettin' on a job site just cause...) Obviously developing nations will go through similar growing pains as the US...

With the advent of global media coverage and the ability to rat out your employer on bad business practices with *almost* complete anonymity in developed countries is a strong indication that the power that unions wield is a little unseemly.

 

[MMike]

I agree with Mr. Squirrel. Their time has come and gone. They were necessary during the industrial revolution.

 

[rockwool]

Some employers still do stuff like fire people for nothing. When that happens you will be totally left out with no backthe****up****thebackup. Then it is good to have people that know the system and can speak those things you probably don't know as good as your boss, aswell as your boss might be a smooth talking smartass while you're a person whos words don't come easy..

When fighting authorities, little man needs help.

Besides, the employers are organized. Any smart person is organized. The employers are smart guys...

 

[$tinkle]

wrt to teachers' unions, steve jobs piles on

In a speech on Friday, the chief executive officer of Apple and Disney honcho declared: "I believe that what's wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way."

The problem with unionization, Mr. Jobs argued, is that it has constrained schools from attracting and retaining the best teachers and from dismissing the less effective ones. This, in turn, deters quality people from seeking to become principals and superintendents. "What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good? Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, ‘I can't win,'" Mr. Jobs said. He concluded by saying, "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."

it's just a good thing apple doesn't have to worry about market share in some obscure cottage industry like the public school system, where they are #2 behind dell.

wisely, michael dell dissented:

Mr. Dell followed Mr. Jobs by defending the rise of unions in education: "the employer was treating his employees unfairly and that was not good. . So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people. The employees won, they do really well and succeed."

 

[fluff]

I agree with Mr. Squirrel. Their time has come and gone. They were necessary during the industrial revolution.

You could say the same about corporations and it would be equally true/meaningless. If unions did not exist corporate influence would be unchecked and the hard-won rights of employees would evaporate.

When unions function as described by dhbuilder then they are effectively operating as Guilds did in the pre-industrial revolution and not as unions originally did.

Perhaps what is really required is better regulation of unions as organisations.

 

[MMike]

commie...

 

[fluff]

fascist...

 

[Secret Squirrel]

You could say the same about corporations and it would be equally true/meaningless. If unions did not exist corporate influence would be unchecked and the hard-won rights of employees would evaporate.

When unions function as described by dhbuilder then they are effectively operating as Guilds did in the pre-industrial revolution and not as unions originally did.

Perhaps what is really required is better regulation of unions as organisations.

Right. I wasn't trying to say get rid of unions, just that their power, influence, etc. is too broad and hurts business/people after a certain point (e.g. dhbuilders' experience). I do agree with the red part. That should be the general jist of future advancements.

 

[MMike]

fascist...

British

 

[fluff]

British

Foreigner

 

[reflux]

Y'll is freedom haters.

 

[rockwool]

wrt to teachers' unions, steve jobs piles onit's just a good thing apple doesn't have to worry about market share in some obscure cottage industry like the public school system, where they are #2 behind dell.

wisely, michael dell dissented:

People who would never endorse the idea that businesses should be granted local monopolies, offer workers lifetime tenure, or pay employees based solely on seniority, embrace a status quo public system that has all of these features.

I don't find that wrong at all. If people feel secure at their jobs it has a positive spinoff on all things since it's such an important thing.

They should get the same pay not only because they do the same work but because they're worth the same as humans.

Moreover, teachers are also taxpayers and parents who want to improve the quality of education. Like the rest of us, self-interest and union dogma may cloud teachers' perception of how to best reform education.

While union members aren't interested in improving things for them selves and their children?


Isn't the sun like an infamous tabloid dissinforming newspaper?

 

[rockwool]

Y'll is freedom haters.

You go get the rope while I watch them. We gonna hang us some ragheads!

 

[$tinkle]

Isn't the sun like an infamous tabloid dissinforming newspaper?

ok, smaht-ahss: google news

hope this is the last time i do your homework for you

 

[rockwool]

ok, smaht-ahss: google news

hope this is the last time i do your homework for you

 

[rockwool]

Blaaah, they're probably owned by the same conglomerate.


But I'm tellin ya, Steve's gonna be sorry cus I'm not getting a Mac when I buy my new computer. No Christmas bonus for him, no sir.